Diehard with a vengenace!!!

[Gray_Bodhisattva]

Is the Diehard feat any good, or are there any other feats/enhanccements that run off of it to make it better. Or could it be just a complete waste of a feat?

[Brennie]

Its a nice bonus to rangers at low levels, but I have never heard of anyone actually spending a feat-slot on it (Even pure fighters with a bajillion feats don't take it). It is useful in maybe one out of a hundred scenarios, and increasingly less as levels go up. The chance you will will incap and *not* die, *AND* not have any teammates to bring you back up is very very slim.

No, there are no feats that have Diehard as a pre-req.

[Xyfiel]

Is the Diehard feat any good, or are there any other feats/enhanccements that run off of it to make it better. Or could it be just a complete waste of a feat?

Toughness is always a better feat then diehard. Well unless you never plan to heal and want to see how many times you get incapped and can continue on.

[geoffhanna]

It is more important for builds that will mainly solo.

It is REALLY important for builds that will be in permadeath guilds.

It is not very useful for anyone else.

[Dretharis]

It is more important for builds that will mainly solo.

It is REALLY important for builds that will be in permadeath guilds.

It is not very useful for anyone else.

Choice between diehard and toughness, at any HP value - let's say a flat 200 for simplicity.

You take 205 damage, and you're incapped - hopefully nothing else decides to smack you around or toss a fireball near you. Oh look the cleric healed you, doesn't matter whether or not you stabilize.

If you had taken toughness - you're standing on your feet, and can throw yourself a heal or chug a potion, or contribute in some other manner.

Past level 10, toughness is always superior. Pre level 10, die-hard may have some marginal use, but I'd still prefer toughness.

[Brennie]

Choice between diehard and toughness, at any HP value - let's say a flat 200 for simplicity.

You take 205 damage, and you're incapped - hopefully nothing else decides to smack you around or toss a fireball near you. Oh look the cleric healed you, doesn't matter whether or not you stabilize.

If you had taken toughness - you're standing on your feet, and can throw yourself a heal or chug a potion, or contribute in some other manner.

Past level 10, toughness is always superior. Pre level 10, die-hard may have some marginal use, but I'd still prefer toughness.

Level 8, actually. 3 HP per level 1, 1 hp from 1-7 = 10 HP.

Factor in racial/class toughness enhancements and toughness is superior from level 2 (Theoretically the earliest you could get racial toughness enhancement for +10 HPs), or level 1 for class Toughness enhancements (Paladin, Barbarian, Fighter)

[whysper]

Toughness is superior until you, inevitably, get knocked Incap

Wonder how far I could play a straight Fighter with nothing but Diehard and Toughness Feats?

[Brennie]

Toughness is superior until you, inevitably, get knocked Incap

Wonder how far I could play a straight Fighter with nothing but Diehard and Toughness Feats?

Toughness is not a fighter bonus feat is it?

I'd go Dwarven Barbarian, for the 20 con on start and +2 from racials, +3 con from class, all toughness enhancements (Toss in diehard if you like), Racial and class toughness enhancements, +4 con tome, +9-10ish con from items (right? I'm not very familiar with endgame loot), Greater False Life item, Barb Rage, and then maybe planar grid and bracers of assitance for some temp hitpoints ^_^

Has anyone ever done the math on this?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Toughness is superior until you, inevitably, get knocked Incap

Wonder how far I could play a straight Fighter with nothing but Diehard and Toughness Feats?

Toughness is ALWAYS superior after L7. Toughness gives you 10HP at level 10, more after that. Incap protects you for 1-9 HP. Thus you are always better off if you had toughness instead of diehard

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

Its a nice bonus to rangers at low levels, but I have never heard of anyone actually spending a feat-slot on it (Even pure fighters with a bajillion feats don't take it). It is useful in maybe one out of a hundred scenarios, and increasingly less as levels go up. The chance you will will incap and *not* die, *AND* not have any teammates to bring you back up is very very slim.

No, there are no feats that have Diehard as a pre-req.

My 20 fighter unfortunately took the feet a couple years ago. Today I was looking at fred to see what it would take to switch it out... 80k pp and 1 million shards to make a flawless.

[Artis_Resistance]

I took Toughness at level 3 and plan to take Diehard at level 6 with my Cleric.

[whysper]

Toughness is not a fighter bonus feat is it?

Correct, it is not. That means you can only reasonably get 7 Toughnesses

Has anyone ever done the math on this?

It comes out to a grand total of many.

[Lithic]

Choice between diehard and toughness, at any HP value - let's say a flat 200 for simplicity.

You take 205 damage, and you're incapped - hopefully nothing else decides to smack you around or toss a fireball near you. Oh look the cleric healed you, doesn't matter whether or not you stabilize.

If you had taken toughness - you're standing on your feet, and can throw yourself a heal or chug a potion, or contribute in some other manner.

Past level 10, toughness is always superior. Pre level 10, die-hard may have some marginal use, but I'd still prefer toughness.

Same situation:

You have 200hp. You take 205 damage, you auto-stabilize. The monster goes to eat the wizard. You get up, and run away, living to recall out and drop group from the morons in your party that got themselves killed.

Second situation:
You have 220hp (with toughness), you take 205damge. You are still up. The monsters sneezes. You take 40more damage. You die.

Not that I am ever going to encourage someone to take diehard, toughness is definately the better buy

[IronAngel]

Same situation:

You have 200hp. You take 205 damage, you auto-stabilize. The monster goes to eat the wizard. You get up, and run away, living to recall out and drop group from the morons in your party that got themselves killed.

Of course after he eats the wizard, you slowly start your regen and then he comes back over and still sneezes on you and you die.

[whysper]

You have 220hp (with toughness), you take 205damge. You are still up. The monsters sneezes. You take 40more damage. You die.

Not that I am ever going to encourage someone to take diehard, toughness is definately the better buy

The "math" about the relative benefits of each misses a crucial variable: if you have 200 HP, are you going to play as if you only had 180 so that you have that comfortable buffer, or are you going to play as if you had 200 HP?

If you have an absolute choice, Toughness is the better one to take. If you already have one Toughness, though, Diehard is a viable alternate to another Toughness

[lifestream]

This far iv found diehard useful alot, sometimes it could happen that party gets wiped buy a sudden strong opponent - the mob goes back to its original spot, i autoregen, pick up stones and run to shrine (wizard - and i really havent found any other that useful feat to replace it for my playstyle).

Not to mention the amount of morons that play ( fail at healing when ur incapped - they run away, use Heal skill thats lvl 1 or close and wont use any heal spells etc to help you up, even clerics + i dont have time to drop every 2nd group and look for another one).

Some mobs to finish you off when ur incapped, some just ignore.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

Sure at lower levels it's helpfull now and then. However, you could instead pick a different feat that will be helpfull every single quest you run.

[Brennie]

This far iv found diehard useful alot, sometimes it could happen that party gets wiped buy a sudden strong opponent - the mob goes back to its original spot, i autoregen, pick up stones and run to shrine (wizard - and i really havent found any other that useful feat to replace it for my playstyle).

Not to mention the amount of morons that play ( fail at healing when ur incapped - they run away, use Heal skill thats lvl 1 or close and wont use any heal spells etc to help you up, even clerics + i dont have time to drop every 2nd group and look for another one).

Some mobs to finish you off when ur incapped, some just ignore.

The problem is that as you level up, the chances that you will find yourself incapped instead of just plain dead are much slimmer (getting hit for 50-100 points of damage leaves very little wiggle room)!

Likewise, players (usually) tend to mature in-game as they level, creating better teamwork and better group-role identity (So healers will be much more aware of those red bars on the side of the screen), so that if you incap, you're much moe likely to just be healed right out of it.

The biggest problem with Diehard is not its usefulness when you are incapped and have no outside source of healing. The biggest problem with Diehard is that most players hardly ever find themselves in that situation (Past the harbor, anyway).

[HeavenlyCloud]

Nuff said!

[Brennie]

Nuff said!

This character doesn't have anywhere close to enough buffs >_>

EDIT: How do you have *2* Jump spells?