FvS Lord of Blades Healer/Buffer/Fighter

[Mellkor]

I would like to comment on this:

Yes. Rangers and paladins. And anyone with UMD.
FS is a very bad class for selfhealing melees. If you don't play on all their strengths you will be a wasted slot.

Rangers and paladins and anyone with umd cannot even come close to the self healing abilities of this build. period. AND cannot buff themselves or heal the entire party nearly as well.

As far as percentage damage ability vs a pure melee? It is around 50-60%. I base this on comparing average swing numbers and crit numbers with pure melees I run with. barbs on the low end and rangers/fighters on the high end of those numbers. I do about the same or slightly more typical swing damage as the average pally, easily (not counting smites, of course). This I base on fighting them in PvP (I usually win vs pallys because they run out of healing ability long before I do).

-JR

[Mellkor]

About your particular build a couple questions: its max balance really needed? i think i would put max ranks on umd and concentration, and distribute some points on jump and balance, so i can start with int 11.

I recently used the heart of wood on him from the birthday egg hunt (I used it to get rid of the points I had in intimidate).


I maxed all 4 of these skills. (I left jump for after level 3 when I ate a +1 int tome) I think these 4 are really essential. If you want to skimp on 2, I would suggest jump and concentration a little, because there is a nice lev 18 jump clicky and quicken will cover you for lack of concentration, but dont skimp too much, again, I think all 4 are really important to this build. Definently dont skimp on balance and UMD.

-JR

[Aaxeyu]

I would like to comment on this:

Rangers and paladins and anyone with umd cannot even come close to the self healing abilities of this build. period. AND cannot buff themselves or heal the entire party nearly as well.

Ofcourse not. And a fs can't come close to the DPS of a ranger or paladin. period.
My point was that if your goal is to have a melee DPS toon with selfhealing fs is a bad choice.
But if you want a character that can heal the party, cast spells and do some melee, fs is a great choice.
Do you understand the difference between the two?

. I do about the same or slightly more typical swing damage as the average pally, easily (not counting smites, of course). This I base on fighting them in PvP (I usually win vs pallys because they run out of healing ability long before I do).

-JR

hahahah. I guess you don't happen to be an evil outsider, right? I won't bother having a DPS discussion with someone that clueless, sorry.

[Mellkor]

The greatswords enhancements compensate/are better than the falchion expanded crit range?

I know you dont have room for all the thf feats, but its taking just one worthy?

I am not sure about your first question. If you mean is this build better off using greatsword vs falchion? I would say yes, overall, EXCEPT when I use a smiting weapon, then I turn off power attack and swing a falcion smiter. In almost every other case my min II greatsword is the best weapon to use. In epic content, I turn off power attack and dual wield 5% weighted weapons (tenderizers are great! and not too hard to get) even with the dual wield penalties, I still hit most epic mobs on a 6 or so. When a mob is stunned, I sometimes switch to greensteel but those tenderizers do great damage when mobs are stunned, so I often dont bother switching.

You are better off using greatswords because of the free greatsword feats and the enhancements that come with them.

second question: definently a no, it is not worth taking one. Too many other FAR more valuable feats to take here. It really doesnt do very much at all.

-JR

[Mellkor]

To Aaexyu:

I stand by my comments based on experience with both character types. you obviously seem to have no experience with this FvS build whatsoever.

hahahah. I guess you don't happen to be an evil outsider, right? I won't bother having a DPS discussion with someone that clueless, sorry.

If I was an evil outsider you may have an argument, but I am not, and so are a lot of mobs out there. I prefere not to be a one trick pony.

-JR

[Aaxeyu]

You are obviously very biased towards this build.

If you like I can back up the "30-40% DPS" claim with math, but I got a feeling that tells me that no matter what numbers I show you, you will still be convined that your "50-60% DPS" is correct.

My intent was never to put down your build, infact I think it's a decent build and the concept of a melee fs is a great one.
Still, if someone is looking for a selfhealing melee build this is not it.

[Mellkor]

In my experience these so called math anaylsis do not translate very well into practice for many reasons. I am comparing real in game numbers here. There are always exceptions based on a lot of factors, but over all, on average, the numbers I quoted are what I see playing the game.

There is no better self healing melee IMO. and I have played them all to cap. at one time or other.

-JR

[Aaxeyu]

In my experience these so called math anaylsis do not translate very well into practice for many reasons. I am comparing real in game numbers here. There are always exceptions based on a lot of factors, but over all, on average, the numbers I quoted are what I see playing the game.

There is no better self healing melee IMO. and I have played them all to cap. at one time or other.

-JR

Ok, so we should trust your very subjective observations that forgoes the simplest things like attackspeed and crit range instead of a good DPS calculator?
What experience with DPS math do you have exactly?

A melee FS that only spend his SP on selfhealing is rather useless and a big waste of potential.
An arcane archer will probably outDPS your build, for example.

[Mellkor]

I am sorry, please play this build before you trash it. This build accomplishes everything I say it does. You seem to think DPS is all there is to discuss.

I not only heal myself, I also heal the party and buff them, AND do decent DPS. If you try playing this, you may have better things to say besides trash a build you havent tried and seem to know little about.

-JR

[Aaxeyu]

I am sorry, please play this build before you trash it.

I not only heal myself, I also heal the party and buff them, AND do decent DPS. If you try playing this, you may have better things to say besides trash a build you havent tried and seem to know little about.

-JR

...

[AylinIsAwesome]

I have a Pure Paladin, and I'm also playing this build.


And I can say that my Paladin does way more damage than this build can do, and not just against Evil Outsiders or Undead. The faster attack speed, extra damage and higher crit range on my Khopeshes put her way above the damage dealing capabilities of this build.

I see the melee of this build as just a little something "extra" it can do, and not it's main feature by any means.

[Spindrake]

I am sorry, please play this build before you trash it. This build accomplishes everything I say it does. You seem to think DPS is all there is to discuss.
I not only heal myself, I also heal the party and buff them, AND do decent DPS. If you try playing this, you may have better things to say besides trash a build you havent tried and seem to know little about.
-JR

That's not his particular objection though. At 20, in melee comparison only, it does 30-40% of the top optimized melee DPSers, excluding the use of bladebarrier.

What you're noting is important too, that:
1. Solo as a melee build that can heal through nearly any content without burning resources on heals or most buffs, it's a breeze. Less of an advantage for resource-rich players that twinked it of course. It plays as a melee/self-healer effectively in solo content, and changes to a more full-time healer in group content. But solo melee you can also grab mobs and stack BB, making your "overall DPS" seemingly quite high. And because DPS is mostly melee, the SP cost is low so you really can be pretty free with your playstyle (i.e. relaxing!)

2. in PUGs with poorly optimized builds and/or players, you are absolutely right you can probably both outDPS the full-time melee'ers, while also kepping everyone healed and buffed. It's tremendous...but unfortunately it's not apples to apples comparison (you're a good player with a good build - vs who knows what sort of random gimps you are compared to)

3. In good groups vs challenging content...I think this build is healing and buffing the entire group most of the time so DPS isn't really relevant. I think you also mention that's the role in raids anyway, so you covered it.

I don't think you guys are *actually* disagreeing

[Lord_Agalon]

I noticed their is no healing spells until you get into the mass. I started this guy, level 4 now and people seem to get discouraged that I have no heal spells at my disposal. Do i just use wands til i get mass?

[johnnyputrid]

I noticed their is no healing spells until you get into the mass. I started this guy, level 4 now and people seem to get discouraged that I have no heal spells at my disposal. Do i just use wands til i get mass?

The spell lists you're seeing in this thread are the 'end game' lists. As you level you'll be swapping a few spells in and out, so that list doesn't reflect which spells you'll be using as you go. As you 'outgrow' your lower level healing spells like CLW, CMW, etc, you'll swap them out for the mass versions when you can fit them in. With a build like this, some spells might become higher priority - you'll probably want Deathward early on, even though a mass version is available later on down the line. Once you can fit in Mass Deathward, you can swap in something else to replace the single-target Deathward.

So go ahead and take some cure spells now. Just be prepared to swap them out for better versions later and fill in the gaps with other useful spells.

[aristarchus1000]

Ok, so we should trust your very subjective observations that forgoes the simplest things like attackspeed and crit range instead of a good DPS calculator?
What experience with DPS math do you have exactly?

As someone who does professional statistics and analysis, I'd caution you about trusting the DPS and paper calculations too much. As in many things, numbers can be misleading, and give the illusion of precision that is not always there. The DPS calculations I see generally apply to static objects that don't fight or hit back. I gave a best estimate of 42-49%, I would not be too surprised after figuring in longer Greatsword range and some playability issues if this rises to 50-55% range or so. I'd generally rate personal play experience from reliable sources (of which Mellkor is one) greater than any calculator, especially since the calculator is really based on extrapolation of various data points such as attack speed, etc.

Again, melee DPS is purely bonus to an excellent healing build. That compared to a pure DPS build which tends to be dependent on others in the group, this build is totally self sufficient, doesn't require any healing from anyone else, ever, and contributes buffs/melee/heals/2nd rezzer to any group. I'd venture to say that most groups will benefit greatly from having a character of this type in their group.

In fact, based on these estimates, 2 characters with this builds can provide the total melee DPS of one pure DPS character, while providing 2 full Favored Soul Mana Bars of healing, and not requiring the healing requirements of a typical pure DPS character. That's pretty powerful.

I wouldn't trash this build, the fact that people are playing this build is allowing you to play your pure DPS character.

[Aaxeyu]

I wouldn't trash this build, the fact that people are playing this build is allowing you to play your pure DPS character.

Who trashed the build? I must have missed that post.

Saying that FS is a bad class if what you are looking for is just a selfhealing melee toon is far from trashing the build tbh.
Saying what his DPS is compared to other classes? Nope, that's not trashing either.

[Nuckoholic]

Who trashed the build? I must have missed that post.

Saying that FS is a bad class if what you are looking for is just a selfhealing melee toon is far from trashing the build tbh.
Saying what his DPS is compared to other classes? Nope, that's not trashing either.

To say that a FVS is a bad choice already proves your ignorance.

Why do you keep suggesting that a melee FVS can only selfheal? The point is that his build not only self heals, but can also heal an entire party and raids.

This build is one of the greatest assets to any party, and I would take it any day (unless there are already multiple dedicated healers) over your pure DPS build, since you likely have to rely on someone else to stay alive.

[Aaxeyu]

Why do you keep suggesting that a melee FVS can only selfheal? The point is that his build not only self heals, but can also heal an entire party and raids.

I'm NOT suggesting that. All I'm saying is that IF the only reason you take FS is only to get selfhealing you are making a very bad choice.


Can't you people read?

[Gercho]

Its true that other classes can self heal and do more dps, like umd users and paladins/rangers, the problem is that if you are not full equipped (conq opposition and torc helps a lot), and short on resources (in case you are umd focused), then the self healing has some limitations, i m suffering that with my paladin, that has full umd.

So, in the end, if you want to be a cheap selfhealing dps, Favored Soul seems like a good election for me, yes, you have less dps, but you can self heal better, and in case you are in a party, you can fill the healer role.

I would like to have a self healing paladin that can run through most of the content solo without problems, and they exist, but i think it will be much easier for me to build a Favored Soul for that, sacrificing some DPS, if a fvs has 50% of the dps of a top dps'er then i m happy.

[Turgar]

So I will be making a warforged favored soul next week, and I wanted some suggestions on how you'd choose to do it with the resources I'll be using.

He'll be a 36 pt build with a past life of wiz, and a past life of sorc. I will have his min II gs done, he has con op sp goggles, bracers of the glacier, a DoD, Purging the pantheon, the beacon of tira helm, and whatever stat items he will need. I am going to try to get a tod ring before I reincarnated again, but no guarantees. How would you choose his ability scores, feats, and spells in my position?