Virt bards: am I the only one?

[Taosaur]

Hehe, judging from the forums I just might be. I can kind of see it based on my dungeon experience so far (lvl 6)--in a decent party, my cc is wasted because the mobs go down so fast. In a lousy party that agros half the dungeon, it can be a lifesaver, but only if the guys that agroed the monsters can stop running long enough to kill them :P

Any advice on using my Virt in parties? So far I Inspire Courage, of course, and mostly use Sonic Burst for crowd control, provide off-heals, and otherwise just go in swinging. I might Inspire Competence on a rogue and Blur on melees. Fascinate I've barely used, though I'm trying to get the hang of when to use it. Hypno I used more before I got Sonic Burst.

This is my first DDO toon, plus a little PnP experience, so any guidance is appreciated.

[Aerendil]

*snip*
Any advice on using my Virt in parties? So far I Inspire Courage, of course, and mostly use Sonic Burst for crowd control, provide off-heals, and otherwise just go in swinging. I might Inspire Competence on a rogue and Blur on melees. Fascinate I've barely used, though I'm trying to get the hang of when to use it. Hypno I used more before I got Sonic Burst.

This is my first DDO toon, plus a little PnP experience, so any guidance is appreciated.

See, the thing is, the other two Bard PrEs can do the exact same thing - only better. The Warchanter will have better Inspire Courage and melee dps; and the Spellsinger will have more SP to blur people, and Hypno enemies. And any Bard can off-heal.

The only current advantage to going Virtuoso is a better Fascinate - but it's silly because a regular Bard can fascinate just fine, and the Enthrall hotkey has to be used separately from Fascinate (and additionally, the Music of the Makers/Dead abilities also have separate hotkeys). And none of these work with the fascinate-based Suggestion/Mass Suggestion abilities.

So, in short, Virtuoso is gimped.
I'd love to see it fixed in the future, and you can search the Bard forums for several suggestions by myself and others as to how to fix it. But for now? I'd switch PrEs if I were you.

[KelWayne]

See, the thing is, the other two Bard PrEs can do the exact same thing - only better. The Warchanter will have better Inspire Courage and melee dps; and the Spellsinger will have more SP to blur people, and Hypno enemies. And any Bard can off-heal.

The only current advantage to going Virtuoso is a better Fascinate - but it's silly because a regular Bard can fascinate just fine, and the Enthrall hotkey has to be used separately from Fascinate (and additionally, the Music of the Makers/Dead abilities also have separate hotkeys). And none of these work with the fascinate-based Suggestion/Mass Suggestion abilities.

So, in short, Virtuoso is gimped.
I'd love to see it fixed in the future, and you can search the Bard forums for several suggestions by myself and others as to how to fix it. But for now? I'd switch PrEs if I were you.

First, enthrallment is not just a better chance to fascinate - creatures have now a chance to break instead of breaking on the first hit. At high levels enthrallment works quite well in that regard. When/if they do break they have a -2 to attack and Will saves for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per level. But as stated, the downside is suggestion doesn't work on enthrallment as it does fascinate.

Second, my lvl 20 bard has over 1300 sp with virtuoso. Running with guildies and friends makes it almost never an issue getting from shrine to shrine (especially with cast happy sorcs).

One advantage early on going virtuoso is the ability to fascinate undead at level six - but the Perform feat is necessary for that. You could respec enhancements at level 10 to go spellsinger and regain fascinate undead with extra song IV - then respec again later on if enthrallment is something you like and your bluebar isn't being abused quite as much by pugs.

[Memnir]

Virtuoso looks great on paper - but the realities of the way the game is played make playing one impractical outside of static or niche groups.

My best advice, as harsh as it may be, would be to respec or reroll as a Warchanter (who has better endgame practicality) or Spellsinger (which is fantastic in the low-to-high mid levels).

[Zorlinta]

My friend, dont let those ppl dissapoint you from virtuoso way.

Im too in argo, bard 19/wiz 1, virtuoso, and very proud of it . You maybe not will be that great for the likes of some, and maybe the the real singer star for others, but dont worry, what worth is what u feel & love to play . Im too have a another bard 16/fighter 1 on warchanter way and really there is just diferent the way of play them, so both as good of effective just not much diference.

What i really love of my virtuoso is that im can sing a lots more than with my warchanter. And it means you can fascinate, or buff more (and if u have spend the ap to increase the songs last time are really a good add).

But generally nowdays entrallment is much more fun to play when you play in a well known party where you are allowed to used it, or when playing solo. Is nor ez wake up your mobs

With virtuoso way you i recomend you focus on ur enchantment & croud controll spells. Sonic burst is good but just against some mobs (althoug is one of the few spells that we have against undeads), so you may like have rage, blur/displacement,haste, greater heroism as main buffs, and for CC use hypnotize (single or ball), ressistible & irresistible dance, dancing ball, and glitterdust (other of the few ones good against undeads), charms are good but you need good timing and learn to use them effectively.

Personally i love my virtuoso for solo loot runs

But whatever else you may need (while not be money or items) you can sent me a pm as we on same server and i can guide with my own experience.


@memnir why not you reroll your mind though first?, so how many virtuosos capped you have in game to say that is not playable and fun in non-static groups?. A virtuoso bard is completely competent and very usefull, i would probably say that is slightly more usable than the counterparts spellsingers & warchanters, mainly because have more songs, and because is easy have more diversity of songs at lower levels wich can be helpfull in some circunstances, at high levels more songs means you can keep well buffed (ac song) more ppl and fullfill the wish of more exigent parties.
But in essence what is most important is the actitude and the ability of the player itself what determines if be good or not on any group.

[leadhead]

Practice!!!!

This is the way I was thinking about going first, but I think it is the hardest of the three to play effectively. I plan on rolling one, but I am practicing CC with my warchanter as I level her up.

My synopsis is this. It seems from the wily old vets that the virt is not very effective in end game raids. I will take that as fact. But there is alot of game play to get to that point. I think up to that point, the virtuoso if played well would earn you a ton of friends in this game. Because good CC lessens sp burden on clerics and is the one element that will get your party through a spot where they are over their head. The "if played" is the tough part. Right now, I go through dungeons to test out new spells and see what works on what creatures and develop tactics...you have to have multiple spells as what works for one group is ineffective for another. Consistency is also a tough one I am really hammering on my charisma and try to acquire equipment to boost spell penetration. To get powerful enough to consistently overcome the will save or spell resistance checks. The heighten feat is a must I think because bards dont get a whole lot of spells, so the lower level ones need to be effective.

Who knows also, by the time you level your virt up to 18 or 20, things might have changed alot.

[Noctus]

My friend, dont let those ppl dissapoint you from virtuoso way.

Im too in argo, bard 19/wiz 1, ....yada yada

And as a Spellsinger you would be even better. (and pure). Thats the crux with Virtuoso, and why you see almost none of them. There are always some diehard defenders of the extraordinaire, but if you care about the power of your character, dont go Virtuoso.

[Taosaur]

Thanks for the replies and I'm glad to see at least a couple people having fun with this path. Zorlinta, actually I'm on Sarlona, or I would take you up on the offer

I take it from Kelwayne I can respec at lvl 10, so maybe I'll consider going a different way then, either alternate path or custom. I think one poor call I made was going Diehard for my choice feat at lvl 6, though it has come in useful soloing. It seems like you really need a group that's prepared to let you fascinate mobs if you want to make good use of that song--I haven't done anything useful with it yet. Sonic Burst, OTOH, has been very useful cc against most large packs of smaller mobs.

Kelwayne, if you have any other advice for sticking it out Virtuoso, I'd love to hear it.

I do appreciate the negative and ambivalent feedback, too, but I get the picture that this is an unpopular path I'm good at finding the hardest way to play a game right off the bat.

[oberon131313]

I do like it, and use it. It may not be the most optimized, but I like being able to fascinate undead at midlevels.

[Taosaur]

So this fascinate undead thing--does your fascinate song just start working on undead at lvl 6? Do you have to take Perform as your optional feat at lvl 6? Is Fascinate Undead a separate song?

[oberon131313]

So this fascinate undead thing--does your fascinate song just start working on undead at lvl 6? Do you have to take Perform as your optional feat at lvl 6? Is Fascinate Undead a separate song?

seperate song, called music of the dead, takes 1 AP and requires virtuoso 1 or extra song IV. Also, at level 9 you can fascinate constructs with music of the makers.

[Taosaur]

Oy, I really should have gone Skill Focus: Perform last level. Is there any way to retrain a level?

[oberon131313]

Oy, I really should have gone Skill Focus: Perform last level. Is there any way to retrain a level?

if you have already done Lockania's quest in the market, then you just need some gold and a Siberys dragonshard of the appropriate type. If you havn't done Lockania's quest, go do that, it gives you a free feat respec. Either way, you talk to Fred in house J for the respec of feats.

Also, I personally prefer Negotiator for unlocking it.

[Zorlinta]

Practice!!!!
It seems from the wily old vets that the virt is not very effective in end game raids.

Hmm wich one?

TOD?
well i havent run much that yet, im too lazy for that and i dont like it that much really. Probably i get bored with lots of practice groups for there, maybe i like it when people does it more often to complete.
Mobs thre hit extremely hard for some good with warchanter buff really, dc extra from spellsinger may works a bit.

Abbot?? -> i found more usefull more songs there if u stay around playing with the undeads as those arent red name can be slept, So is ok normal buff songs against abbot, so extra dc from the spellsinger or the warchanter buff 5/- would help u much against inferno.

Vod ?? -> People only cares about ac song mostly. So more songs you can keep buffed them better. Other songs are optionals mostly.

Hound?? -> Songs used to help the dogs mostly, Ac for main tank, inspires for entrace and dogs. Here warchanter have more help with the 5/- for the dogs.

Shroud ?? hmm probably your mean this raid. So here warchanter & spellsingers are better help because lots of trash to kill, but still not really that much diference. What is most needed is the inspire buffs and that you are able to heal & ress

And as a Spellsinger you would be even better. (and pure).
Thats the crux with Virtuoso, and why you see almost none of them.

Yeah noctus, of course that i could be got better, but spellsinger is very temptative option really but is not my gameplay style. Yeah also stay pure should be good too, but i took the choice to split so many years ago (long before velah appeared), and i have learned to live and adapt my playstyle with that. Also my stats are not that good as you can see in my character profile (http://my.ddo.com/character/argonnessen/zorlinta/) and a re-roll will do some great things but Im not a that a perfectionist for stats/skills, thats not the point of this character, the point of this character is have fun on the very long way, do some mistakes is allwasy part of the learning, but is sometimes better keep them, accept it and learn to live with them, so adapt them to get the best from that and use as an advantage.

So to fix some of my mistakes (like stats unbalance) i created my 2nd bard, but as it have really no sense have them both on same path, and also wanted to try so badly other gameplay keeping the essence of the same, i took warchanter way this 2nd time. And is not bad neither, but in the end i like more virtuoso.

[Waffle_Stomper]

I play a Warchanter, so I can't really speak on how Virtuoso works out in the end. The one thing that I can tell you from my experience is that if you're going to use Fascinate and plan on CC, the party you're running with really needs to be aware. When I started leveling up there were countless times I used Fascinate only to have it be worthless by everyone storming all the mobs and breaking it. The only times it has worked out for me is when it's the plan to use it, or as an oh sh!t button once people start to drop. When I am solo, Fascinate can help out a lot too. I think the build would be great for when you're playing with a people you regularly play with and understand what you're doing, or one that might be trying to do a difficult quest and your group is a bit lacking in heals. Either way you'll always have your buff songs to play and that's what everyone really wants out of a Bard. So I say stick with whatever you want to play and have fun with it.

[Taosaur]

if you have already done Lockania's quest in the market, then you just need some gold and a Siberys dragonshard of the appropriate type. If you havn't done Lockania's quest, go do that, it gives you a free feat respec. Either way, you talk to Fred in house J for the respec of feats.

Also, I personally prefer Negotiator for unlocking it.

Thanks for the detailed tips, Oberon. I'm getting much better edumacated on several fronts as a result of this thread

If Lockania's quest is the big quiz to check for Dragonmarks, I took it and failed miserably at about lvl 3 right before they moved it out of the Harbor. Knowing nothing about the lore of all the houses, I don't think that quest is much use to me, but I'll look up Fred. Of course, I reset my AP last night and had to skip Virtuoso because I didn't have it unlocked, so I might as well wait a couple days on the feat respec. I probably will go Negotiator

Again, thank you everyone for the advice. I feel on much firmer footing as far as planning my character and probably will stick w/ Virt for this toon. Next will probably be ranger or FS.

[Arianrhod]

Thanks for the detailed tips, Oberon. I'm getting much better edumacated on several fronts as a result of this thread

If Lockania's quest is the big quiz to check for Dragonmarks, I took it and failed miserably at about lvl 3 right before they moved it out of the Harbor. Knowing nothing about the lore of all the houses, I don't think that quest is much use to me, but I'll look up Fred. Of course, I reset my AP last night and had to skip Virtuoso because I didn't have it unlocked, so I might as well wait a couple days on the feat respec. I probably will go Negotiator

Again, thank you everyone for the advice. I feel on much firmer footing as far as planning my character and probably will stick w/ Virt for this toon. Next will probably be ranger or FS.

The books around the room inside the quest have the answers to all the questions. Just read the books, then take the quiz.

[Taosaur]

The books around the room inside the quest have the answers to all the questions. Just read the books, then take the quiz.

Ah ha! I thought there had to be something like that, but when I did it I had no clue what it was and just shook my head and went back to kobold-whacking

I'll still see what Fred wants when I'm on tonight--if it's a fragment I have and reasonable GP, I might just save the freebie.

[Hirosue]

No you are not the only one. Unfortunately people have become totally fixated with war chanter damage reduction buff and so routinely slate non war chanter builds.

I built my virtuoso as a dwarf battle bard 1barb/16 bard so far. The crazy number of songs means that virtuoso can pretty much sing crowd control, fascinates, enthrallment, music of the makers, music of the dead AND sing buffs through an entire quest without worry. Not having the dr/5 song is no big deal really and lets face it if a raid party cant defeat the shroud boss without 5/dr song then they are a pretty useless bunch.

Unfortunately a lot of people are put off virtuoso and spell singer by the rabid ranting of people addicted to dr/5 song. So much misinformation is posted here in the bard forums that they think the only viable bard line is war chanter. In fact all 3-bard lines are worthwhile and fun to play.

However there is some truth in the comment that the extra virtuoso songs are potentially wasted if the party doesn’t let you sing crowd control or wont take the fascinated mobs down one at a time. But this is the frustration all bards have to deal with and quite frankly if the party is so stupid that it wont cooperate with bard fascinates why on earth should you be forced to roll a war chanter for dr song to compensate for their stupid behaviour ?

[Tuney]

Yeah Virt bards are uncommon. When the PrE's first came out I was in love with Virt but Shroud raids finding out i was Virt I found my self commonly kicked... And Then ended into the lovly spiriral of Switching between Warchanter , Spellslinger AND Virt every few days.

In true the 3 builds are more about playstyle then what they give. Warchanters 'favor' more offensivly built bards , Spellslingers ... like the name says, and Virts are the bards that favor using songs to change the balance of power which... saddly is more useful in groups then raids.

Now if only I could get my suggestion songs to work I'd be a happy bard but that is a whole differnt story for me hehe.

The extra songs from Virt early level + the two 'Musics' , I think help more then the other two unless you are running some quest with lots of shrines. You may not be able to use CC songs to often but you'll be able to keep your group in the 'grove' with your longer and greater number of songs. I know at the ealier levels I burnt though my fasinations/enthralments quickly that I rarly had any for buffing hehe.

Though Warchanter/SpellSlingers would be better then Virt if you had a 'fixed' group then you could speilized better into helping them. But I'd never change out of Virt anymore after that... dreamy time of being able to fasinate/entrall red names makes me want that back at least THE VERY LEAST WHY can't we fasinate/enthrall orange named yet can use ANY other form of CC on them?!