Punch-a-potamus, a hate tank

[Thanimal]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Best ... first ... post ... ever!

Here's some rep to get you started.

[phreek]

Just a little modification here, that I've noticed also has been miscalculated on Thanimal's HM thread.

Intimidate score optimally equipped at level 20:
23 ranks
+15 item
+3 CHA (6 base + 6 item + 4 Tome = 16)
+6 Shroud CHA skilz item
+4 GH
+2 luck (head)
+9 enhancements (vs. HM +6)
+2 Bard Song (hopefully available if tanking the game's hardest raid on Elite!)
---
74 (HM 71 here)

After calculating these numbers a few times, you should end up at 64?

23 + 15 = 38
+3 CHA = 41
+6 Shroud = 47
+4 GH = 51
+2 Luck = 53
+ 9 enhancment = 62
+ 2 bard song = 64

Where did the extra 10 come from?

Also, even though you haven't posted your gear list, you could basically get another +2 AC ahead of the HM build by taking advantage of the Stalwart Defender set. Stalwart Necklace & Cinder's Band.

Also another great bonus for those that go along with the third fighter PrE.

[Aerendil]

Any chance you can crunch the numbers using a slightly reverse setup of 18 Monk / 1 Rogue / 1 Ranger?
1 Rogue = haste clicky, UMD (shield/stoneskin/etc.), d6+3 SA dmg (which, as a Monk tank, you can apply while tanking), intimidate skill access
1 Ranger = +1 BAB, +3 AC/dmg vs. 1 FE (evil outsiders?), sprint boost clicky, energy resistance clicky, no UMD for heal wands

18 Monk will give you your GM stances + 2d20 ki strikes, which is *huge*, plus a relatively robust fist damage (2d8).
You also get up to tier IV animal stances (badger or tortoise seem good for tanking) and a strong enough healing ki finisher that you can be throwing out 100hp AoE heals every 30sec or so.

And you'll have similar AC (what you lose from Stalwart 3, you gain from Monk-Centered.)

Just curious.

[Missing_Minds]

Op, I've got no comments for the build. But I do love the name you gave it.

[Thanimal]

Any chance you can crunch the numbers using a slightly reverse setup of 18 Monk / 1 Rogue / 1 Ranger?
...
And you'll have similar AC (what you lose from Stalwart 3, you gain from Monk-Centered.)

How would you hold aggro on this build? While you do officially have Intimidate as a class skill, I don't see how you can get it high enough. And there no hate-increasing option here, so I see no hope of holding aggro via DPS/Hate.

I have no doubt a Monk can achieve awesome defenses (better than most tanks), but it takes more than that to compete with the overall tanking package of Stalwart or Syberis.

[Aerendil]

How would you hold aggro on this build? While you do officially have Intimidate as a class skill, I don't see how you can get it high enough. And there no hate-increasing option here, so I see no hope of holding aggro via DPS/Hate.

I have no doubt a Monk can achieve awesome defenses (better than most tanks), but it takes more than that to compete with the overall tanking package of Stalwart or Syberis.

Yeah, that's the only possible kicker, but if you go WF you could always rely on Intimidate + warforged brute tactics + spamming 2d20 ki strikes (which is reasonable dps).
That should be enough, no?

Less hate management than the original build above, but better dps (which is hate management of a sort).

*edit* - path of the badger should be similar/equal to the +intimidate boosts that stalwart affords. You only lack the Fighter Intimidate enhancements.

[Thanimal]

Yeah, that's the only possible kicker, but if you go WF you could always rely on Intimidate + warforged brute tactics + spamming 2d20 ki strikes (which is reasonable dps).
That should be enough, no?

Less hate management than the original build above, but better dps (which is hate management of a sort).

*edit* - path of the badger should be similar/equal to the +intimidate boosts that stalwart affords. You only lack the Fighter Intimidate enhancements.

Interesting. Way of the Badger does give you up to 4 (for a rather enormous action point investment that I suspect is not realistic), but Fighter Stalwart would still have a huge lead, with +3 Intimidate Enhancements and +6 from Stalwart. +5 (realistically I think +6) is a lot, but actually closer than I was thinking.

As far as reasonable DPS + Warforged Brute Fighting, that won't be close to the top DPS builds (keep in mind you're in CE not PA when tanking and WFBF tops out at +25% with a massive investment), so I wouldn't consider that a "real" Hate tanking option.

I'm not saying the Monk direction is non-viable, but I don't think it can be called a full-fledged aggro-control tank like Punchapotamus.

[cforce]

Just a little modification here, that I've noticed also has been miscalculated on Thanimal's HM thread.

Intimidate score optimally equipped at level 20:
23 ranks
+15 item
+3 CHA (6 base + 6 item + 4 Tome = 16)
+6 Shroud CHA skilz item
+4 GH
+2 luck (head)
+9 enhancements (vs. HM +6)
+2 Bard Song (hopefully available if tanking the game's hardest raid on Elite!)
---
74 (HM 71 here)

After calculating these numbers a few times, you should end up at 64?

23 + 15 = 38
+3 CHA = 41
+6 Shroud = 47
+4 GH = 51
+2 Luck = 53
+ 9 enhancment = 62
+ 2 bard song = 64

Where did the extra 10 come from?

Also, even though you haven't posted your gear list, you could basically get another +2 AC ahead of the HM build by taking advantage of the Stalwart Defender set. Stalwart Necklace & Cinder's Band.

Also another great bonus for those that go along with the third fighter PrE.

Hm -- good catch. I was just taking the Hate Monster total and adding a net +3 from enhancements -- I never went back and checked the math. Thanimal?

[Thanimal]

Hm -- good catch. I was just taking the Hate Monster total and adding a net +3 from enhancements -- I never went back and checked the math. Thanimal?

ADDITION FAIL! I just went and fixed the HM post, but this does change things a bit. It means Hate mode is the only mode (probably for both of these options) against Elite end-game foes. But I'm increasingly convinced that's just fine, as long as a) they fix the hate generation stuff, and b) both HM and Punchapotamus put a little more focus on HPs.

I'll be updating some details on HM at some point to reflect the latest info I have about end-game tanking (from other forumites, not my own experience). The bottom line is I remain convinced that all of the "good" hate tanks can do the job with a little planning, a lot of equipment and consumables, and a good party.