Rogues who don't Disable!

[Munesai]

This is a little silly that we are arguing over this.

I have an assassin build and get some silly, insane amount of skill points. Silly to the point of max'ing out the required skills and then going....hmmm, haggle, jump....no, that's at 20, swim......., no, that's just crucible......ok, diplo (so I can diplo that monster off on the sorc...what fun!).

Granted, I have some capped toons and I pass down +5 tools and lots of gear but it's hard to screw up a rogue.

Find some specialty weapons (I like for the devils to have to survive the banish check and the assassinate check) such as banishers, smiters, and disrupters. Get some good search, spot, and disable goggles. Bam! You are set.

/co-signed

[Rameses]

We as the player base have the misconception that Rogue's are only here to Disable Traps, unlock doors and an occasional chest.
Then along comes a player genious who noticed that if you invest a little less in Int and a little more into Str, all of the sudden the Rogue is capable of bypassing DR and doing a lot more damage.
Then there are players that could careless about Trapsmithing since it's really a small part of the game. And they max out their Rogue's combat potential.

I've been stating for a long while that if you build a character that is balanced you should have no problem doing both trapsmithing and DPS, it's extremely disappointing to start a PuG (and I've never turned away another rogue) and to hear a pug Rogue state that he is only built for traps and can't do damage. ***!
SNEAK ATTACKS. So they sit there as Sable said with their hands in their pockets while everyone else is fighting for their XP.

Lastly when I level a character and get asked ignorant questions like "Hey Rogue, Your job is to disable traps and open locks. Can you do your job?"
This is rude caause I have a name, and is when I lay down my favorite quote "I'm not that kind of Rogue."
Because, I do not view my "job" as being only limited to such a confining padagrim.
I am a Rogue that does both DPS and Trapsmithing. With DPS being my major contribution to the XP panel.

I am, Rameses!

[Munesai]

is str stacking better than dex stacking+weapon finesse?
i still have 16 str, but 22 dex is good bussiness in many ways, and i still have 16 int as well.
much easier and efficient to do so on a drow.
its an honest question, while playing d&d for years, i used to make weapon masters and in BG i had a kensai.
Im not into the current kensai as much, i loved my cloth wearing body exploding master of katanas.
And being a Japanese resident (not citizen, im american, but in love with my host country and its history) i used to model them all after Musashi Miyamoto, THE kensai (sword-saint)...if you all only knew how bad ** that guy was.

[Mav145]

As far as my rogue, I like to sneak through the enemies and then assassinate the casters. I get the traps only if the party wants the traps diabled or if we are on first time bonuses and we want the xp.

Rogues are fun but not an easy class for people to play. My alts are barbarian and fighter. It was so hard to get used to shedding/avoiding aggro that I almost deleted this guy several times on the way up to level 12. Then, assassinate comes along and....it's like the heavens opened and a ray of light lit my path.....SNEAK, GO FORTH, AND ASSASSINATE!

Now granted, I spend 80% of my time in groups out of sneak mode just hammering away, but it's nice to sneak to the bloodstone chest and assassinate the mephit, loot and sneak away.

[Munesai]

As far as my rogue, I like to sneak through the enemies and then assassinate the casters. I get the traps only if the party wants the traps diabled or if we are on first time bonuses and we want the xp.

Rogues are fun but not an easy class for people to play. My alts are barbarian and fighter. It was so hard to get used to shedding/avoiding aggro that I almost deleted this guy several times on the way up to level 12. Then, assassinate comes along and....it's like the heavens opened and a ray of light lit my path.....SNEAK, GO FORTH, AND ASSASSINATE!

Now granted, I spend 80% of my time in groups out of sneak mode just hammering away, but it's nice to sneak to the bloodstone chest and assassinate the mephit, loot and sneak away.

I stay in sneak the whole time.
unseen is my armor.

[pumagirl418]

I've been playing again for a month, after a two year or so hiatus. Back when I played, every rogue was happy in disabling traps. As it was well accepted that's what they were there for. However these days who cannot disable, or even find traps for that matter. I realize it happens occasionally, but isn't it well accepted that's the primary job of a rogue? It wouldn't bother me as much if they would state that they aren't specialized to disable traps, or find them. But they don't... When asked, why they aren't disabling they'll respond with something like "I jus kill munsters lolz"... Okay okay, so most are actually not that idiotic. Still, it amazes me how many rogues time after time fail to disable traps of their level even on hard.

I'm in no way saying the only role for a rogue is to disable traps, and nothing else. As I've seen the damage rogues can do in certain situations. In fact, as a monk with unbalancing strike - I complement pure DPS rogues quite well.

I always tell new rogues (Search, is the bane of all rogues). Why? If there is any problem with the whole trap interactions in this game is that generally rogues tend to stock up on +Disable skills, and items. While forgoing Search all together. If only I had a dollar for every time I heard "If I can find the CP I can disable it!". And generally it's true. If I have a ranger who had a high search ends up finding the trap - the rogue can generally disable it. But it's not effective concentrating on two classes to do something one class can do!

SO why did I post this topic? New rogues, please... For the love of god. If you cannot disable traps, please mention it when you join a party. You may think rogues are assassins in disguise but the main reason you got the nifty /invitation to a party 99% of the time is to disable traps. Remember not to forgo search in favor of other skills, as it seems that's the hardest part of disabling a trap.

A rogue who doesn't disable, is like a wizard who melees only.

It's sad that every time I invite a rogue these days I'm forced to ask, "Do you disable traps?". On top of that, I carry +5 Search goggles, and Fox Cunning pots with me at all times. As well as +Skill clickies like Heroism. When I do find a good rogue(Especially VIP) I immeditately add them to my friends list.

Remember! Rogues IMO are the most important class in this game in terms of grouping. Multiple classes can heal, tank, and buff. BUT only one class can disable traps ; ) and a group who doesn't disable traps is a **** group! Elite traps are deadly, and can make or break a group in some quests.

So is it just me? Or have other players seen this often as well? Am I being an ass? Being picky?

i have a diable rogue, but no one waits anymore, the party wants you to spring them not diable, unless they want xp, then you miss the quest while disabling.

just post you plan on waiting for the rogue and that you want a rogue to disable

boy do i miss the days when I could run my rogue in her 'diabling' mode

[Munesai]

i have a diable rogue, but no one waits anymore, the party wants you to spring them not diable, unless they want xp, then you miss the quest while disabling.

just post you plan on waiting for the rogue and that you want a rogue to disable

boy do i miss the days when I could run my rogue in her 'diabling' mode

aw man, don't be sad, there are still good players out there!
chin up.

[ApesAmongUs]

Save everyone some grief and never roll a rogue. Rogues primary ability is sneak attack, traps are just a bonus. As far as I'm concerned any rogue splash can handle traps, why degrade such an awesome class to such a boring job.

I'd say the exact opposite. Sneak attack (as a replacement for backstab) was the worst thing ever to happen to D&D. I long for those bygone days when rogues were thieves and couldn't kill a mangy rat without catching him by surprise. DPS is the boring job and I dislike that I can't come up with a good reason in this game to make a mechanic instead of an assassin.

[kebomatic]

well we all agree rogues can do nice DPS and can deal with traps really well. this thread was pointed on the fact that the OP could not find the right rogue for the job he wanted so he decided to ask how come the rogues now on the 1-12 bracket seem to have trouble disabling traps thus leading the party to gamble on saves and luck to get through some of the crucial traps. yes the veterans may argue that the traps are so easy to dodge with a little practice and whatnot but then DDO was built on the premise of people working together to do quests, hence its a Role Playing Game. in case you guys want an example of a crucial trap we can go to Gwylan's Stand lvl7 quest in house P, the sonic trap along the stairs. its crucial because the area of error you can make between each step is so small that most people fail at the jumping if a rogue cant disable that trap and i know we all agree that having a trapmonkey for these kinds of situations are better than having some overpowered twink dps rogue.

so why grief at rogues who choose to go one path or another? well i think its cause most of the new people who play come from some of the popular MMOs like WoW for example wherein rogues are purely DPS and traps do not exist. and they kinda stick to what they know which is to do good dps. again they arent used to how terribly annoying traps get in DDO so im guessing the OP is in the 1-12 bracket atleast since thats where the trouble with builds usually is.

im not saying every rogue should be specced into disabling traps much like clerics should only heal but for the most part of every party starters intentions we would like to have a cleric that can heal and a rogue that can handle traps. the people who say that rogues do good dps are correct rogues do good dps but other classes can do better. its just that traps are a rogues thing if any other class in the game can do it as well as a rogue can then please enlighten us in this thread, if there isnt then all i can say is to each his own.

personally id rather have a trapmonkey than a cleric in some quests and in others id rather have a cleric, i guess it varies just learn to ask and pick your rogues carefully. DPS and Traps are a rogues primary job, having both in one is a bonus. cheers

[SableShadow]

We as the player base have the misconception that Rogue's are only here to Disable Traps, unlock doors and an occasional chest.
Then along comes a player genious who noticed that if you invest a little less in Int and a little more into Str, all of the sudden the Rogue is capable of bypassing DR and doing a lot more damage.
Then there are players that could careless about Trapsmithing since it's really a small part of the game. And they max out their Rogue's combat potential.

I've been stating for a long while that if you build a character that is balanced you should have no problem doing both trapsmithing and DPS, it's extremely disappointing to start a PuG (and I've never turned away another rogue) and to hear a pug Rogue state that he is only built for traps and can't do damage. ***!
SNEAK ATTACKS. So they sit there as Sable said with their hands in their pockets while everyone else is fighting for their XP.

Lastly when I level a character and get asked ignorant questions like "Hey Rogue, Your job is to disable traps and open locks. Can you do your job?"
This is rude caause I have a name, and is when I lay down my favorite quote "I'm not that kind of Rogue."
Because, I do not view my "job" as being only limited to such a confining padagrim.
I am a Rogue that does both DPS and Trapsmithing. With DPS being my major contribution to the XP panel.

I am, Rameses!

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Rameses again."

[Merkinsal]

I never said rogues couldn't do other things as well. I play a Monk mainly, and I know first hand that different builds for the same class give distinct play styles.

Rogues can do some nice DPS - specced or not. My main problem with rogues who DO use main DPS is that most of the time they can't handle the aggro and end up sucking SP from the cleric... I guess that's what makes a good assassin from a bad one. You do not help the group when you grab aggro, and end up having to run around in circles because the enemy is destroying you - As every melee class in the game deals significantly less DPS while moving.

What gets me is that in my months(maybe 9-10 total through the years) of playing I meet only a handful of rogues who actually say they aren't specced for traps. That's where the problem lies. As most rogues either blantly lie about being able to do traps, or simply don't know. Of course the latter isn't as bad as the previous.

Honestly though, I only do quests if I'm getting the full first time XP bonus(I try anyway). Therfor having a trap rogue who disables all the traps for the bonus will net you more XP for the small amount of waiting.

Have you ever played a sorcerer? Ever try getting through a trap on elite? It's instant death from one mistake - albeit lag, or just not able to move fast enough. Like someone else stated - there's simply not enough people in the game that have the skills needed to bypass traps. Hell, most players have problems with the jumping parts in the game. This obviously is because I assume most players come from other MMOs, rather then Platformers/Action hack.

With all due respect, re your original and this post, because I haven't gotton to the end of this long thread. You can be excused for thinking rogues should be able to do traps. But, by now you should know that many do not and those rogues do just fine. The problem in your pug was with your party selection because you picked a rogue who did not and you wanted one that did and didn't ask.

The idea to come into the rogue forum and then proceed to tell the experts what skills are required was a bad form. Better to have asked. To stick to the premise and insist you are right defies my belief.

Yes, some parties need trap rogues. Yes, many if not most carry those skills.

However, some Players, not characters or classes, cannot handle agro. This statement is nonsense, "My main problem with rogues who DO use main DPS is that most of the time they can't handle the aggro and end up sucking SP from the cleric." Fact is, all rogues are "main dps" and should be the top in every party. You are simply picking on dps rogues who you saw draw agro because that's what you wanted to see. I guarantee my assassin will out dps you and everyone in your party, and do traps, and pull agro off anyone in your party if I make a mistake. THat does not make her any better than any other rogue. I simply like to play that way and built her that way but her dps will not measure up to other builds who prefer a different play style. (That idea boggle my mind btw.) And please, do not generalize and bring defective characters and mistakes made by players in game to this discussion and hold them up as examples of defects to all characters with a particular build.

Just ask politely. Something like, "I want to run this quest with a rogue who can disable the traps. Can you do that?" You know, you might get this response, "I will try but I don't know where they are and I don't like spoilers. If you are expecting me to run up to a trap and disable it I will not be able to do that. My search is much better than my spot and I often will have to stop and make sure I am not walking into a trap"

Your version of what a rogue should be is outdated in DDO. Perhaps in another time you might have had a point. This game is amazing in the variety of builds and paths a character can take and still be effective. Kind of like real life. I personally choose to play with people whose play styles are compatible.

[jeenne]

I've been playing again for a month, after a two year or so hiatus. Back when I played, every rogue was happy in disabling traps. As it was well accepted that's what they were there for. However these days who cannot disable, or even find traps for that matter. I realize it happens occasionally, but isn't it well accepted that's the primary job of a rogue? It wouldn't bother me as much if they would state that they aren't specialized to disable traps, or find them. But they don't... When asked, why they aren't disabling they'll respond with something like "I jus kill munsters lolz"... Okay okay, so most are actually not that idiotic. Still, it amazes me how many rogues time after time fail to disable traps of their level even on hard.

I'm in no way saying the only role for a rogue is to disable traps, and nothing else. As I've seen the damage rogues can do in certain situations. In fact, as a monk with unbalancing strike - I complement pure DPS rogues quite well.

I always tell new rogues (Search, is the bane of all rogues). Why? If there is any problem with the whole trap interactions in this game is that generally rogues tend to stock up on +Disable skills, and items. While forgoing Search all together. If only I had a dollar for every time I heard "If I can find the CP I can disable it!". And generally it's true. If I have a ranger who had a high search ends up finding the trap - the rogue can generally disable it. But it's not effective concentrating on two classes to do something one class can do!

SO why did I post this topic? New rogues, please... For the love of god. If you cannot disable traps, please mention it when you join a party. You may think rogues are assassins in disguise but the main reason you got the nifty /invitation to a party 99% of the time is to disable traps. Remember not to forgo search in favor of other skills, as it seems that's the hardest part of disabling a trap.

A rogue who doesn't disable, is like a wizard who melees only.

It's sad that every time I invite a rogue these days I'm forced to ask, "Do you disable traps?". On top of that, I carry +5 Search goggles, and Fox Cunning pots with me at all times. As well as +Skill clickies like Heroism. When I do find a good rogue(Especially VIP) I immeditately add them to my friends list.

Remember! Rogues IMO are the most important class in this game in terms of grouping. Multiple classes can heal, tank, and buff. BUT only one class can disable traps ; ) and a group who doesn't disable traps is a **** group! Elite traps are deadly, and can make or break a group in some quests.

So is it just me? Or have other players seen this often as well? Am I being an ass? Being picky?

nope, it is not just you. It is rather annoying how many rogues are unable to find traps. My rogue is assassin spec but I invested in search once I realized that you gotta find the traps in order to disable them . So you can certainly be a decent dps AND find traps. Just keep some googles of search on you and maybe some other stuff (+spot items and +disable items) and you wont have to sacrifice dps for dd or ol.

However, I suppose that is all in the eye of the beholder. Rogues can be played in different ways and I think it is ok to just ask before you start a quest if the rogue is a trapmonkey or not. I mean, generally I will ask a multiclass character (with 2 lvls of rogue for example) if he is able to get the traps. He could have just taken the 2 levels for evasion for all I know. So since i ask those characters I might as well ask the "normal" rogue.
Lately I have been more relaxed about that whole issue since a lot of new players are joining the game and are still learning the mechanics of the game. After all this is supposed to be fun, not torture . and honestly what's the worst that can happen? ya you might die in a trap...and ya it sucks...but in the end it is a game and as long as you have fun, things work out (IMO). Just pick your party according to your preference.

[Fenrisulven6]

If you run through a dungeon quickly, you earn more XP per minute than if you took your time. As a result, you get a lot of parties zerging through the instance. A good party will not wait for the rogue to find the trap; they'll jump over the trap and let the rogue find the traps while they keep going. The rogue will only have to catch up once he disabled the traps (which are worth disabling only for the extra XP).

In theory yes, in Gwylans no. I've got it choreographed now to take down each trap as quickly and efficiently as possible, even skipping chests... all so I can catch up to the party and rescue their stones. Several quests are like this.

if Rogue's are there for the DPS they bring, why leave them behind at the trap?


[...]

Things I've learned on my rogue:

1) If the one-level splashes really want to show off their disable skills, let them. There are only a few traps in game that jeapordize quest completion. I figure these guys have put alot of work into minmaxing their build, so let them play with it. As for the few killer traps, know them and get there first: if the splash blows the box, it wont matter that his disable is higher - the party will blame the splash concept for quest failure. [of course, as I say this, I'm usually the highest rogue lvl and also highest disable in group, but I'm still a splash build who's prejudiced against OTHER splashes who only took one lvl of rogue. LOL.]

2) Don't be pulling aggro while the rogue is disabling. You get him hit, he has to start over, making it take even longer to get him back into the dps mix. Either let him disable OR pull the aggro, not both at the same time. We don't like working in a sleet storm.

3) Your kill count does not matter. You do your best work underneath the tank's aggro anyway. You wouldn't have "beat" him if he wasn't providing it.

4) "Look, I know you're a skilled vet and that there's a 95% chance you can clear the trap on Elite. But we need you alive to complete the next parts of the quest. For cryin out loud, just wait 10 secs."

[jeenne]

well we all agree rogues can do nice DPS and can deal with traps really well. this thread was pointed on the fact that the OP could not find the right rogue for the job he wanted so he decided to ask how come the rogues now on the 1-12 bracket seem to have trouble disabling traps thus leading the party to gamble on saves and luck to get through some of the crucial traps. yes the veterans may argue that the traps are so easy to dodge with a little practice and whatnot but then DDO was built on the premise of people working together to do quests, hence its a Role Playing Game. in case you guys want an example of a crucial trap we can go to Gwylan's Stand lvl7 quest in house P, the sonic trap along the stairs. its crucial because the area of error you can make between each step is so small that most people fail at the jumping if a rogue cant disable that trap and i know we all agree that having a trapmonkey for these kinds of situations are better than having some overpowered twink dps rogue.

so why grief at rogues who choose to go one path or another? well i think its cause most of the new people who play come from some of the popular MMOs like WoW for example wherein rogues are purely DPS and traps do not exist. and they kinda stick to what they know which is to do good dps. again they arent used to how terribly annoying traps get in DDO so im guessing the OP is in the 1-12 bracket atleast since thats where the trouble with builds usually is.

im not saying every rogue should be specced into disabling traps much like clerics should only heal but for the most part of every party starters intentions we would like to have a cleric that can heal and a rogue that can handle traps. the people who say that rogues do good dps are correct rogues do good dps but other classes can do better. its just that traps are a rogues thing if any other class in the game can do it as well as a rogue can then please enlighten us in this thread, if there isnt then all i can say is to each his own.

personally id rather have a trapmonkey than a cleric in some quests and in others id rather have a cleric, i guess it varies just learn to ask and pick your rogues carefully. DPS and Traps are a rogues primary job, having both in one is a bonus. cheers

so true and nicely put! [thumbs up]

[krud]

nope, it is not just you. It is rather annoying how many rogues are unable to find traps. My rogue is assassin spec but I invested in search once I realized that you gotta find the traps in order to disable them . So you can certainly be a decent dps AND find traps. Just keep some googles of search on you and maybe some other stuff (+spot items and +disable items) and you wont have to sacrifice dps for dd or ol.

However, I suppose that is all in the eye of the beholder. Rogues can be played in different ways and I think it is ok to just ask before you start a quest if the rogue is a trapmonkey or not. I mean, generally I will ask a multiclass character (with 2 lvls of rogue for example) if he is able to get the traps. He could have just taken the 2 levels for evasion for all I know. So since i ask those characters I might as well ask the "normal" rogue.
Lately I have been more relaxed about that whole issue since a lot of new players are joining the game and are still learning the mechanics of the game. After all this is supposed to be fun, not torture . and honestly what's the worst that can happen? ya you might die in a trap...and ya it sucks...but in the end it is a game and as long as you have fun, things work out (IMO). Just pick your party according to your preference.

agreed.

It is one thing to not have all the gear when starting a rogue, or be in a quest above your level, or be in a group that zergs the traps, but it's entirely different matter if you are purposely building your rogue to not be able to do traps. You lose not one iota of dps when investing in the two skills it takes to be able to disable traps. Rogues have plenty of skill points, and not many other good options for them, why not max these two skills? It's like a fighter not taking the toughness feat. You only gain from it, and lose nothing. Even if you don't want to throw any AP into it, you'll still be able to get most traps in the game.

[Fenrisulven6]

This is a little silly that we are arguing over this.

Even funnier, I'm looking at this forum section's title:

"Rogue: In general, Rogues are skilled at getting what others don't want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans or a guards trust."

Nothing in there about DPS. I blame Turbine for the ignorance!

[Rameses]

Even funnier, I'm looking at this forum section's title:

"Rogue: In general, Rogues are skilled at getting what others don't want them to get: entrance into a locked treasure vault, safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans or a guards trust."

Nothing in there about DPS. I blame Turbine for the ignorance!

Turbine has proven time and time again that they are ignorant to the game in general.

"Mobility = More DPS" - Kate Piaz


I am, Rameses!

[whysper]

in case you guys want an example of a crucial trap we can go to Gwylan's Stand lvl7 quest in house P, the sonic trap along the stairs.

It is, by the by, a Force trap

[Fenrisulven6]

That reminds me, WHEN are we going to get access to Resist Force?

Or is that just the dev fallback for nastiness?

[bobbryan2]

agreed.

It is one thing to not have all the gear when starting a rogue, or be in a quest above your level, or be in a group that zergs the traps, but it's entirely different matter if you are purposely building your rogue to not be able to do traps. You lose not one iota of dps when investing in the two skills it takes to be able to disable traps. Rogues have plenty of skill points, and not many other good options for them, why not max these two skills? It's like a fighter not taking the toughness feat. You only gain from it, and lose nothing. Even if you don't want to throw any AP into it, you'll still be able to get most traps in the game.

Unfortunately... that's not entirely the truth. Often, 8 int rogues have to pick between traps and stealth. Most will choose traps, but stealth is often a useful pick as well.

In general, I agree with you. In practice, I can see rogues that don't feel they have the skill points to spare.

As a sidenote. Am I the only rogue that gets annoyed when people wait for me to do the trap? I know most rogues get annoyed if anyone jumps through the trap, even if they take no damage (especially if they take no damage). But am I the only one that rolls my eyes because they're delaying the quest when they could just continue on?