Rogues who don't Disable!

[Azmode]

I've been playing again for a month, after a two year or so hiatus. Back when I played, every rogue was happy in disabling traps. As it was well accepted that's what they were there for. However these days who cannot disable, or even find traps for that matter. I realize it happens occasionally, but isn't it well accepted that's the primary job of a rogue? It wouldn't bother me as much if they would state that they aren't specialized to disable traps, or find them. But they don't... When asked, why they aren't disabling they'll respond with something like "I jus kill munsters lolz"... Okay okay, so most are actually not that idiotic. Still, it amazes me how many rogues time after time fail to disable traps of their level even on hard.

I'm in no way saying the only role for a rogue is to disable traps, and nothing else. As I've seen the damage rogues can do in certain situations. In fact, as a monk with unbalancing strike - I complement pure DPS rogues quite well.

I always tell new rogues (Search, is the bane of all rogues). Why? If there is any problem with the whole trap interactions in this game is that generally rogues tend to stock up on +Disable skills, and items. While forgoing Search all together. If only I had a dollar for every time I heard "If I can find the CP I can disable it!". And generally it's true. If I have a ranger who had a high search ends up finding the trap - the rogue can generally disable it. But it's not effective concentrating on two classes to do something one class can do!

SO why did I post this topic? New rogues, please... For the love of god. If you cannot disable traps, please mention it when you join a party. You may think rogues are assassins in disguise but the main reason you got the nifty /invitation to a party 99% of the time is to disable traps. Remember not to forgo search in favor of other skills, as it seems that's the hardest part of disabling a trap.

A rogue who doesn't disable, is like a wizard who melees only.

It's sad that every time I invite a rogue these days I'm forced to ask, "Do you disable traps?". On top of that, I carry +5 Search goggles, and Fox Cunning pots with me at all times. As well as +Skill clickies like Heroism. When I do find a good rogue(Especially VIP) I immeditately add them to my friends list.

Remember! Rogues IMO are the most important class in this game in terms of grouping. Multiple classes can heal, tank, and buff. BUT only one class can disable traps ; ) and a group who doesn't disable traps is a **** group! Elite traps are deadly, and can make or break a group in some quests.

So is it just me? Or have other players seen this often as well? Am I being an ass? Being picky?

[Borror0]

[...] isn't it well accepted that's the primary job of a rogue?

Nope. DPS is a rogue's job. If he or she can get the traps, I call it a bonus.

[RATRACE931]

I agree whole heartedly that DPS is a rogues job, but if you make a class with more than 2 lvls or rogue u can get nearly any trap in the game. Youre running with crappy DPS rogues if they dont at least have a moderate skill with traps.

[Rambin]

If your on Argo, go ahead and add Ashling to you friends list. She's an Assassin Build, but does not neglect the skills needed for traps and locks.

On another note: My favorite rogue that I played in Pen and Paper D&D completely ignored the skills for traps and locks. He was built as a fast talking con-man and would recruit followers that he could talk into doing nearly anything for him (including walking into a trap to set it off before the rest of the party got hit by it).

My favorite adventure with this guy: Our group heard rumor of a guard unit invading a large bandit camp and had the captured bandits and the loot from their camp stored in a guard tower waiting to be transported back to the city. We gathered outside of the guard tower and the group starts talking about different ways to get in. Some were breaking out grappling hooks and talking about entering from a top window, and my rogue hops up and says "why don't we just try to front door" runs off and knocks on the door of the guard tower.

After talking to the guard at the door, my rogue talked the guard into inviting the whole party inside for dinner and drinks. My rogue after dinner starts playing drinking games with the guard, and through using slight of hand kept getting the guards more drunk without having to take a single drink himself. Once the guards were passed out, or too drunk to stand, my party walked out the front door with all the loot and never had to draw a weapon.

[Ystradmynach]

The other side of the coin are parties that zerg through traps and leave the rogue behind while he searches for traps or loot. It is like most parties don't even care about the extra loot, experience, or strain on their cleric as long they get to the end at breakneck speed.

And not everyone who invites a rogue into a party is looking for someone to disable traps, more often then not they are just looking for anyone who can help them kill things. The exception being if they specifically state they are looking for a rogue or ask only for rogues, which really means, looking for someone to disable traps (or less often open locks or find hidden doors).

Anyway, if you wondering why there aren't as many trap rogues as you like, it might be both that they the job of trap springer is often under appreciated, and the same time a lot of people mistakenly think that is all a rogue is good for. Plus the path of trap specialization offers few other side benefits, thus most people choose not to go that route.

With that said, rogues have enough skill points. that there is really little excuse not to put max ranks in spot, search and disable traps, especially being as there aren't many good skills to choose from. But I also think it is reasonable that most rogues won't specialize in those skills, and thus many rogues might be not be up to finding/disabling certain traps, especially on elite or above their level.

[Borror0]

The other side of the coin are parties that zerg through traps and leave the rogue behind while he searches for traps or loot. It is like most parties don't even care about the extra loot, experience, or strain on their cleric as long they get to the end at breakneck speed.

If you run through a dungeon quickly, you earn more XP per minute than if you took your time. As a result, you get a lot of parties zerging through the instance. A good party will not wait for the rogue to find the trap; they'll jump over the trap and let the rogue find the traps while they keep going. The rogue will only have to catch up once he disabled the traps (which are worth disabling only for the extra XP).

Of course, you get bad players not knowing their limits and trying to imitate the good players but that's just unavoidable.

With that said, rogues have enough skill points that there is really little excuse not to put max ranks in spot, search and disable traps, especially being as there aren't many good skills to choose from. But I also think it is reasonable that most rogues won't specialize in those skills, and thus many rogues might be not be up to finding/disabling certain traps, especially on elite or above their level.

Important point.

[Visty]

With that said, rogues have enough skill points. that there is really little excuse not to put max ranks in spot, search and disable traps, especially being as there aren't many good skills to choose from. But I also think it is reasonable that most rogues won't specialize in those skills, and thus many rogues might be not be up to finding/disabling certain traps, especially on elite or above their level.

starting int8 means 7 skills per lvl
move silent
hide
umd
tumble
balance
spot
jump

****, no points left over for search and disable

see, rogues can be build many ways, just because they can get trapskills doesnt mean they have to
you mean, my cleric could get the sovereign host 1000pt heal, but she doesnt

[transtemporal]

Rogue skills on a rogue (or mostly rogue) require so little thinking that if you can't fit them and great dps, I would wonder why you were making a rogue and not a straight dps ranger or something.

[Ereshkigal]

If your on Argo, go ahead and add Ashling to you friends list. She's an Assassin Build, but does not neglect the skills needed for traps and locks.

On another note: My favorite rogue that I played in Pen and Paper D&D completely ignored the skills for traps and locks. He was built as a fast talking con-man and would recruit followers that he could talk into doing nearly anything for him (including walking into a trap to set it off before the rest of the party got hit by it).

My favorite adventure with this guy: Our group heard rumor of a guard unit invading a large bandit camp and had the captured bandits and the loot from their camp stored in a guard tower waiting to be transported back to the city. We gathered outside of the guard tower and the group starts talking about different ways to get in. Some were breaking out grappling hooks and talking about entering from a top window, and my rogue hops up and says "why don't we just try to front door" runs off and knocks on the door of the guard tower.

After talking to the guard at the door, my rogue talked the guard into inviting the whole party inside for dinner and drinks. My rogue after dinner starts playing drinking games with the guard, and through using slight of hand kept getting the guards more drunk without having to take a single drink himself. Once the guards were passed out, or too drunk to stand, my party walked out the front door with all the loot and never had to draw a weapon.

The vast majority of groups do not wait for traps. I have a rogue that I do not play often, and if it's a good group that really is running well without my help in killing stuff, I will run around and try to get all the traps before completion just to get a little extra xp for the group. It's rather challening in some quests and near impossible in others. The fact is people rarely care about traps, just running through them to get to the end.

That is why many rogues don't even bother to train trap skills. Sure it's not difficult to get a moderate level of ability in trapsmithing, but when there is little need or opportunity to do so, lots of people have decided they shouldn't bother training the skills at all.

right or wrong, that's the way things have headed. Personally I would find it interesting if traps suddenly started doing 2x current damage on normal, 4x current damage on hard, and 6x current damage on elite. But then that would anger a lot of people who have devised their characters based on the current trap damage, so who knows what will happen. The current massive damage happening on elite damage has been said to be a bug, perhaps it was a stealth-test to see what reactions would be?

[krud]

Nope. DPS is a rogue's job. If he or she can get the traps, I call it a bonus.

But it isn't a choice of either dps or traps. How often do you fight mobs at the same time a trap needs to be disabled? rarely. So when they are not dpsing, and a trap is there the rogue should be able to handle it (if level appropriate). It's such a trivial investment for a rogue, and doesn't have to affect dps one iota. There is only one skill that will help a rogue in the dps department, diplomacy (ok bluff too, but it sux). What else is a rogue going to invest his skill points into to boost his dps? Balance, perhaps. That still leaves 5 or more skill points per level for everything else. Not being able to get trap skills with that many skill points is worse than a battle cleric who does not heal. At least the cleric would be capable of healing if they so choose.

I can understand the newb who doesn't have all the gear yet. At least they'll give it a try, but purposely building a rogue incapable of doing traps seems pointless.

[Borror0]

krud, if you had taken the time to read the rest of the thread you would have seen that I addressed all those points.

[whysper]

Nope. DPS is a rogue's job. If he or she can get the traps, I call it a bonus.

No, DPS is not a Rogue's job either. Surely this is not so difficult?

If your Rogue does DPS, and cannot disable etc., then you join when a group looks for melee (or ranged, or whatever.)

If your Rogue does traps, but no DPS, then you join when the group looks for a trapmonkey.

If your Rogue does both, then you can join either.

If your Rogue does something else entirely, you join when the appropriate talents are in search.

[Borror0]

No, DPS is not a Rogue's job either. Surely this is not so difficult?

What you wrote does not support this claim.

[bobbryan2]

No, DPS is not a Rogue's job either. Surely this is not so difficult?

If your Rogue does DPS, and cannot disable etc., then you join when a group looks for melee (or ranged, or whatever.)

If your Rogue does traps, but no DPS, then you join when the group looks for a trapmonkey.

If your Rogue does both, then you can join either.

If your Rogue does something else entirely, you join when the appropriate talents are in search.

Well, I wouldn't join a group that just wanted a trap monkey even if I 'was' a trapmonkey.

The group will probably stumble.

[spyyder976]

Nope. DPS is a rogue's job. If he or she can get the traps, I call it a bonus.

You're missing the point. Other classes can dish out damage easily. Only rogues disable.

[Borror0]

You're missing the point. Other classes can dish out damage easily. Only rogues disable.

Other races have racial bonuses with certain weapons. Only drows have bonuses with shuriken.

[karnokvolrath]

Other races have racial bonuses with certain weapons. Only drows have bonuses with shuriken.

OHHH pwnage - Anyway i guess ill through my two worthless cents out there.....Ive been dinking around with rogues of late, and honestly i REALLY dont see how people are having issues with this. Heres the thing with any class, do your research, figure out the plan and go from there. Almost by default most rogue sould be at least half arsed be able to trap stuff. This also comes back to just poor judgement or lack of knowledge. If your playing a 2rogue/3rngr and the LFM says STK/DELARAS ELITE - NEED ROUGE and there are 3 barbs in the party....do you really think you sould apply? Odds are the leader of that party is looking to take the slow and steady wins the race route and will prefere the traps be disabled. On the other hand, if your a trap monky *** are doing in kobald assault anyway? I think this all boils down too a few simple things, people not paying attention to whats going on (classic PUG material). And just lack of communication. I dont care if everyone in your group either zergs or everyone waits, just so long as its understood what the plan is.

[Noctus]

You may think rogues are assassins in disguise but the main reason you got the nifty /invitation to a party 99% of the time is to disable traps.

No. Simply not true.

DPS is a rogue's job. If he or she can get the traps, I call it a bonus.

Thats it.

[Mav145]

This is a little silly that we are arguing over this.

I have an assassin build and get some silly, insane amount of skill points. Silly to the point of max'ing out the required skills and then going....hmmm, haggle, jump....no, that's at 20, swim......., no, that's just crucible......ok, diplo (so I can diplo that monster off on the sorc...what fun!).

Granted, I have some capped toons and I pass down +5 tools and lots of gear but it's hard to screw up a rogue.

Find some specialty weapons (I like for the devils to have to survive the banish check and the assassinate check) such as banishers, smiters, and disrupters. Get some good search, spot, and disable goggles. Bam! You are set.

[Munesai]

This is a little silly that we are arguing over this.

I have an assassin build and get some silly, insane amount of skill points. Silly to the point of max'ing out the required skills and then going....hmmm, haggle, jump....no, that's at 20, swim......., no, that's just crucible......ok, diplo (so I can diplo that monster off on the sorc...what fun!).

Granted, I have some capped toons and I pass down +5 tools and lots of gear but it's hard to screw up a rogue.

Find some specialty weapons (I like for the devils to have to survive the banish check and the assassinate check) such as banishers, smiters, and disrupters. Get some good search, spot, and disable goggles. Bam! You are set.

/co-signed