Rogues who don't Disable!

[Azmode]

I've been playing again for a month, after a two year or so hiatus. Back when I played, every rogue was happy in disabling traps. As it was well accepted that's what they were there for. However these days who cannot disable, or even find traps for that matter. I realize it happens occasionally, but isn't it well accepted that's the primary job of a rogue? It wouldn't bother me as much if they would state that they aren't specialized to disable traps, or find them. But they don't... When asked, why they aren't disabling they'll respond with something like "I jus kill munsters lolz"... Okay okay, so most are actually not that idiotic. Still, it amazes me how many rogues time after time fail to disable traps of their level even on hard.

I'm in no way saying the only role for a rogue is to disable traps, and nothing else. As I've seen the damage rogues can do in certain situations. In fact, as a monk with unbalancing strike - I complement pure DPS rogues quite well.

I always tell new rogues (Search, is the bane of all rogues). Why? If there is any problem with the whole trap interactions in this game is that generally rogues tend to stock up on +Disable skills, and items. While forgoing Search all together. If only I had a dollar for every time I heard "If I can find the CP I can disable it!". And generally it's true. If I have a ranger who had a high search ends up finding the trap - the rogue can generally disable it. But it's not effective concentrating on two classes to do something one class can do!

SO why did I post this topic? New rogues, please... For the love of god. If you cannot disable traps, please mention it when you join a party. You may think rogues are assassins in disguise but the main reason you got the nifty /invitation to a party 99% of the time is to disable traps. Remember not to forgo search in favor of other skills, as it seems that's the hardest part of disabling a trap.

A rogue who doesn't disable, is like a wizard who melees only.

It's sad that every time I invite a rogue these days I'm forced to ask, "Do you disable traps?". On top of that, I carry +5 Search goggles, and Fox Cunning pots with me at all times. As well as +Skill clickies like Heroism. When I do find a good rogue(Especially VIP) I immeditately add them to my friends list.

Remember! Rogues IMO are the most important class in this game in terms of grouping. Multiple classes can heal, tank, and buff. BUT only one class can disable traps ; ) and a group who doesn't disable traps is a **** group! Elite traps are deadly, and can make or break a group in some quests.

So is it just me? Or have other players seen this often as well? Am I being an ass? Being picky?

[Borror0]

[...] isn't it well accepted that's the primary job of a rogue?

Nope. DPS is a rogue's job. If he or she can get the traps, I call it a bonus.

[RATRACE931]

I agree whole heartedly that DPS is a rogues job, but if you make a class with more than 2 lvls or rogue u can get nearly any trap in the game. Youre running with crappy DPS rogues if they dont at least have a moderate skill with traps.

[Rambin]

If your on Argo, go ahead and add Ashling to you friends list. She's an Assassin Build, but does not neglect the skills needed for traps and locks.

On another note: My favorite rogue that I played in Pen and Paper D&D completely ignored the skills for traps and locks. He was built as a fast talking con-man and would recruit followers that he could talk into doing nearly anything for him (including walking into a trap to set it off before the rest of the party got hit by it).

My favorite adventure with this guy: Our group heard rumor of a guard unit invading a large bandit camp and had the captured bandits and the loot from their camp stored in a guard tower waiting to be transported back to the city. We gathered outside of the guard tower and the group starts talking about different ways to get in. Some were breaking out grappling hooks and talking about entering from a top window, and my rogue hops up and says "why don't we just try to front door" runs off and knocks on the door of the guard tower.

After talking to the guard at the door, my rogue talked the guard into inviting the whole party inside for dinner and drinks. My rogue after dinner starts playing drinking games with the guard, and through using slight of hand kept getting the guards more drunk without having to take a single drink himself. Once the guards were passed out, or too drunk to stand, my party walked out the front door with all the loot and never had to draw a weapon.

[Ystradmynach]

The other side of the coin are parties that zerg through traps and leave the rogue behind while he searches for traps or loot. It is like most parties don't even care about the extra loot, experience, or strain on their cleric as long they get to the end at breakneck speed.

And not everyone who invites a rogue into a party is looking for someone to disable traps, more often then not they are just looking for anyone who can help them kill things. The exception being if they specifically state they are looking for a rogue or ask only for rogues, which really means, looking for someone to disable traps (or less often open locks or find hidden doors).

Anyway, if you wondering why there aren't as many trap rogues as you like, it might be both that they the job of trap springer is often under appreciated, and the same time a lot of people mistakenly think that is all a rogue is good for. Plus the path of trap specialization offers few other side benefits, thus most people choose not to go that route.

With that said, rogues have enough skill points. that there is really little excuse not to put max ranks in spot, search and disable traps, especially being as there aren't many good skills to choose from. But I also think it is reasonable that most rogues won't specialize in those skills, and thus many rogues might be not be up to finding/disabling certain traps, especially on elite or above their level.

[Borror0]

The other side of the coin are parties that zerg through traps and leave the rogue behind while he searches for traps or loot. It is like most parties don't even care about the extra loot, experience, or strain on their cleric as long they get to the end at breakneck speed.

If you run through a dungeon quickly, you earn more XP per minute than if you took your time. As a result, you get a lot of parties zerging through the instance. A good party will not wait for the rogue to find the trap; they'll jump over the trap and let the rogue find the traps while they keep going. The rogue will only have to catch up once he disabled the traps (which are worth disabling only for the extra XP).

Of course, you get bad players not knowing their limits and trying to imitate the good players but that's just unavoidable.

With that said, rogues have enough skill points that there is really little excuse not to put max ranks in spot, search and disable traps, especially being as there aren't many good skills to choose from. But I also think it is reasonable that most rogues won't specialize in those skills, and thus many rogues might be not be up to finding/disabling certain traps, especially on elite or above their level.

Important point.

[Visty]

With that said, rogues have enough skill points. that there is really little excuse not to put max ranks in spot, search and disable traps, especially being as there aren't many good skills to choose from. But I also think it is reasonable that most rogues won't specialize in those skills, and thus many rogues might be not be up to finding/disabling certain traps, especially on elite or above their level.

starting int8 means 7 skills per lvl
move silent
hide
umd
tumble
balance
spot
jump

****, no points left over for search and disable

see, rogues can be build many ways, just because they can get trapskills doesnt mean they have to
you mean, my cleric could get the sovereign host 1000pt heal, but she doesnt

[Azmode]

If you run through a dungeon quickly, you earn more XP per minute than if you took your time. As a result, you get a lot of parties zerging through the instance. A good party will not wait for the rogue to find the trap; they'll jump over the trap and let the rogue find the traps while they keep going. The rogue will only have to catch up once he disabled the traps (which are worth disabling only for the extra XP).

Of course, you get bad players not knowing their limits and trying to imitate the good players but that's just unavoidable.

Important point.

On a general note - the only time I make it a huge point to get all the bonuses is on first time runs ; ) As that XP can rack up with first run 50% bonus.

I disagree though, rushing through quests usually ends up back firing a lot of the time. And I would never stand anybody rushing through traps on the harder difficulties. That's just a good way to suck up Cleric SP, and to die often. That's insane that a group wouldn't wait 5 seconds for a rogue to disarm traps for the (15% bonus? 25%?).

To tell you the truth, I hate people who run through traps, on harder quests with harder difficulties. Those are the people who end up dying and cause me to go through the trap to get their soulstone. I end up having to drag their sorry asses back to the nearest shrine.

My groups go the same speed as the slowest member, and everyone - EVERYONE sticks together.

My problem though, with a lot of the new players who go all out DPS is that they actually cause more harm then good. I do wish more rogues would manage their aggro better. I mean, a rogue's AC for the most part isn't as good as other classes - grabbing aggro from tough monsters usually means the cleric spends more SP then they should.

The thing that bugs me is the rogues who steal kills ; ). I'll fight an enemy and get it down to 25% health and then a rogue will come up and sneak attack it and kill it! hehehe, **** thieves!

[Borror0]

I disagree though, rushing through quests usually ends up back firing a lot of the time.

You've been playing for less than two months. You probably have yet to acquire the skills or knowledge to do that reliably. DDO is a fairly easy game so, eventually, you'll probably end up find out that zerging is incredibly effective and rarely backfires. It does not help that a lot of players are in the same situation as you thanks to DDO:EU.

It all comes to knowing your and the limits of the groups.

[Rushing through traps on the harder difficulties is] just a good way to suck up Cleric SP, and to die often.

Again, that's only true for new players.

[Enir]

With all respect to BorrorO (may his children grow ever strong and wise) -
Traps can often be avoided by *well-experienced players*. This is a very small percentage of the population at the moment.
I play clerics and I appreciate it when players wait for the trap to be disabled; rather than taking a 20% hit then sucking my SP. I also play rogues who CAN do the trap-monkey work AND deal nice backstabbing DPS. I normally double the kill count of the next party member.
I agree with the OP on the usual PUG. Zerging and running through traps is for experienced players (normally running with guildies) IMHO.

[Borror0]

Traps can often be avoided by *well-experienced players*. This is a very small percentage of the population at the moment.

I don't disagree but there is a difference between that and making the affirmative claim that traps can't be overcame without being a drain on the cleric.

[Rameses]

As a well known Rogue, I almost never disable traps unless it's the first time through the quest while leveling.
I agree with B on his statement of zerging for xp per minute vs. putter through a quest for xp per hour.
A lot of the players that are any good at this game prefer zerging, because we've run all the quest's a couple million times over the years. If you're new to the game I emphatize with you and I'd gladly answer any questions you have about the game and it's mechanics.
However, I will not slow down.
Do I play Rogue's? Yes.
Do I zerg with my Rogue's. Absolutely!

I am, Rameses!

[CSFurious]

i do not dispute your point

however, you need to tell group leaders while pugging that you have no trapsmithing skills at all

starting int8 means 7 skills per lvl
move silent
hide
umd
tumble
balance
spot
jump

****, no points left over for search and disable

see, rogues can be build many ways, just because they can get trapskills doesnt mean they have to
you mean, my cleric could get the sovereign host 1000pt heal, but she doesnt

[Rameses]

i do not dispute your point

however, you need to tell group leaders while pugging that you have no trapsmithing skills at all

LOL

My favorite line when PuG'n with Froob's...

"I'm not that kind of Rogue."

I am, Rameses!

[Aalric]

I've actually been following this with some interest

I play on Canith and there is a lack of items that are used to twink toons (almost a low magic world, ). i used to play a rogue/ranger who was lvl 9 & i always invested in disable & search. I had +5 items (best that was around at the time that was affordable), skill boosts, etc. he was also a dwarf so he had +2 to search.

I had no trouble dealing with traps on normal and sometimes hard. i couldn't do it on elite. & I found that many rogues couldn't either. The most successful rogue I ever saw was a rogue 1/ wiz 8, but that would gimp a wiz eventually (no capstone). the seach rolls were close to 30 or more & i just couldn't do it. eventually i gave up on that charachter & now play a pure ranger.

i love the idea of a rogue/ranger. But the rolls seem insanely difficult. I think I saw somewhere that in 1 lvl 18 dungeon you needed a search of 64! i just don't see how anyone who doesn't make an incredible investment in trapfinding (both enhancements, gear & investment in intellegence) can deal with these rolls. & that must take away from anything else a rogue is trying to do...

[Shamguard]

I agree with B on his statement of zerging for xp per minute vs. putter through a quest for xp per hour.
A lot of the players that are any good at this game prefer zerging, because we've run all the quest's a couple million times over the years. <snip>
However, I will not slow down.
Do I play Rogue's? Yes.
Do I zerg with my Rogue's. Absolutely!

This is part of why so many rogues are unable to disable traps.

When we first started with this game most rogues made an effort to get all the traps, people took thier time to get through each quest, and try to get as much xp/quest as possible.

Then someone came up with this idea of xp/minute. WHAT!!!
Just in case you haven't noticed there is more than enough xp in this game to cap your character and still not run every quest. With this zerg mentality you'll find yourself sitting at level 20 with about a third of the quests never being run.

In case you haven't noticed this game is not a race game. The object of this game is not to see how quickly you can level cap your character. There is no prize for getting to level cap faster than anyone else.

D&D in every form (including DDO) is about team play. It is about working with other players/characters and compleating a goal/quest.

I guess my only response to:

LOL "I'm not that kind of Rogue."

would be "Then we need to get a Real Rogue not a battle cleric with sneak attack."

Rogues are capable of some awesome DPS, but so are the fighter classes. Rogues are the only class that can Disable Traps. That's why some many people try to splash rogue into their characters because they think that will make them as good as a rogue. What many people don't understand is that Rogues are about more than DPS and Traps. Good rogues can fill in for just about any other class and cover the "Rogue Skills".

The traps in this game are now a joke, they are nothing to be feared. Until this is changed you will continue to find parties that don't stop for traps. You add to this the lack of a real penalty for death and you have no reason to have any respect for the traps or people who can disable them.

...

[SableShadow]

"Then we need to get a Real Rogue not a battle cleric with sneak attack."

Lecturing Ram on rogues is like trying to educate the pope on catholicism: you can do it, you may even make a point or two, but no one's going to take you that seriously.

[Kalari]

Im sorry op I love playing rogues I love my assassins and my utility builds but your mentality saddens me. Yes I do believe that if someone is capable of doing something to help a party they should but there is no class to me that is so dire to party make up that a party cant succeed without them and I would not expect anyone to try to state that.

Yes I do find rogues can make a trap heavy quest easier, but with many evasion builds traps unless on elite or epic are still not the issue they could be. Some would even argue to you that healers would be more important to any quest then someone who can get down traps.

And what about rogues who specialize in other areas? Not all of us want to be trapsmiths hence why there are other paths. If someone wants to boost their smithing skills for cabal and the new stuff great for them, id rather know my tush can survive a full on assault by mobs or take down with little to no damage to my rogue as possible.

So I get your rant but I cannot agree with it op.

[Rameses]

This is part of why so many rogues are unable to disable traps.

When we first started with this game most rogues made an effort to get all the traps, people took thier time to get through each quest, and try to get as much xp/quest as possible.

Then someone came up with this idea of xp/minute. WHAT!!!
Just in case you haven't noticed there is more than enough xp in this game to cap your character and still not run every quest. With this zerg mentality you'll find yourself sitting at level 20 with about a third of the quests never being run.

In case you haven't noticed this game is not a race game. The object of this game is not to see how quickly you can level cap your character. There is no prize for getting to level cap faster than anyone else.

D&D in every form (including DDO) is about team play. It is about working with other players/characters and compleating a goal/quest.

I guess my only response to:



would be "Then we need to get a Real Rogue not a battle cleric with sneak attack."

Rogues are capable of some awesome DPS, but so are the fighter classes. Rogues are the only class that can Disable Traps. That's why some many people try to splash rogue into their characters because they think that will make them as good as a rogue. What many people don't understand is that Rogues are about more than DPS and Traps. Good rogues can fill in for just about any other class and cover the "Rogue Skills".

The traps in this game are now a joke, they are nothing to be feared. Until this is changed you will continue to find parties that don't stop for traps. You add to this the lack of a real penalty for death and you have no reason to have any respect for the traps or people who can disable them.

...

Shamguard, the concept is not who can reach capped level the fastest for a pure zerger.
It's "I want to get my newest build into raids and crafting as fast as possible with my friends and guildies."
Now granted yes elite traps are not a joke. But then that's all part of the learning curve.
I'm not concerned about favor, I've already capped out favor on 4 characters. +2 tomes are now uncommon drops so 1750 is not an incentive. 32 pt characters are now buyable. Follow my point yet.

Yes, my play style is different from yours, obviously. I don't/won't judge you. But when you judge me, don't be offened if I heckle you.

I am, Rameses!

[Thriand]

, but isn't it well accepted that's the primary job of a rogue?

Wow... just wow

Save everyone some grief and never roll a rogue. Rogues primary ability is sneak attack, traps are just a bonus. As far as I'm concerned any rogue splash can handle traps, why degrade such an awesome class to such a boring job.

As I have said many time before. I would much rather rez everyone in my party through a trap if I have to (even though most are easily avoided) than take along a rogue whose sole contribution to the party is his ability to search and disable traps.