Rogues who don't Disable!

[Drakons20]

reroll ur attitude. makes u lost. plenty of ways to get sneak attacks on stuff with heavy fort. so that leaves elementals and undead thats like telling a fire specced sorc that since they cant cast firewall on the pit fiend in the shroud that they should have all buffing spells and instakill spells and wait till borror breaks u down with some facts

You can't crit something with heavy fort tard, period end of story, you've been rendered useless. Since you can't crit, you can't sneak.

[Azmode]

You've been playing for less than two months. You probably have yet to acquire the skills or knowledge to do that reliably. DDO is a fairly easy game so, eventually, you'll probably end up find out that zerging is incredibly effective and rarely backfires. It does not help that a lot of players are in the same situation as you thanks to DDO:EU.

It all comes to knowing your and the limits of the groups.

Again, that's only true for new players.

Seeing that I played from Module 2-6(when ever Litany Of the Dead came out), I wouldn't say I'm a new player. I can avoid traps as a Monk easily by jumping, high reflex, evasion, but most players don't have these skills. All it takes on elite is one mistake and you're dead(assuming you're doing quests your level or higher).

The fact is a lot of people CAN'T avoid traps. Especially when in a PUG. Therefor having a trap monkey is the only sure way of making sure you do the quest. Either way, a group who doesn't wait the few seconds it takes for a good rogue to disable traps is losing out on good XP. Maybe in months of playing that extra XP is nullified, that's assuming no one dies in the process which takes even more time and effort to get their asses to a shrine. Resting at a shrine is about the same time as a good rogue takes to disable a trap.

Also, I see all types of people die by trying to avoid traps. High levels with twinks, new players - just because someone has been playing for a long time doesn't mean they're good.

[Azmode]

I never said rogues couldn't do other things as well. I play a Monk mainly, and I know first hand that different builds for the same class give distinct play styles.

Rogues can do some nice DPS - specced or not. My main problem with rogues who DO use main DPS is that most of the time they can't handle the aggro and end up sucking SP from the cleric... I guess that's what makes a good assassin from a bad one. You do not help the group when you grab aggro, and end up having to run around in circles because the enemy is destroying you - As every melee class in the game deals significantly less DPS while moving.

What gets me is that in my months(maybe 9-10 total through the years) of playing I meet only a handful of rogues who actually say they aren't specced for traps. That's where the problem lies. As most rogues either blantly lie about being able to do traps, or simply don't know. Of course the latter isn't as bad as the previous.

Honestly though, I only do quests if I'm getting the full first time XP bonus(I try anyway). Therfor having a trap rogue who disables all the traps for the bonus will net you more XP for the small amount of waiting.

Have you ever played a sorcerer? Ever try getting through a trap on elite? It's instant death from one mistake - albeit lag, or just not able to move fast enough. Like someone else stated - there's simply not enough people in the game that have the skills needed to bypass traps. Hell, most players have problems with the jumping parts in the game. This obviously is because I assume most players come from other MMOs, rather then Platformers/Action hack.

[Lleren]

Seeing that I played from Module 2-6(when ever Litany Of the Dead came out), I wouldn't say I'm a new player. I can avoid traps as a Monk easily by jumping, high reflex, evasion, but most players don't have these skills. All it takes on elite is one mistake and you're dead(assuming you're doing quests your level or higher).

The fact is a lot of people CAN'T avoid traps. Especially when in a PUG. Therefor having a trap monkey is the only sure way of making sure you do the quest. Either way, a group who doesn't wait the few seconds it takes for a good rogue to disable traps is losing out on good XP. Maybe in months of playing that extra XP is nullified, that's assuming no one dies in the process which takes even more time and effort to get their asses to a shrine. Resting at a shrine is about the same time as a good rogue takes to disable a trap.

Also, I see all types of people die by trying to avoid traps. High levels with twinks, new players - just because someone has been playing for a long time doesn't mean they're good.

At lower levels ( 1 - 8 ) I am seeing a lot of players in PuG's that cannot avoid traps ( newer player here myself ) Some of these players make the claim to being veteran and being hardcore players, some admit to being new to the game. I have heard some say that they had forgotten how rough some traps where at these levels.

I have seen more then few pug's fail from lack of communication, with some sticking back with the cleric who is waiting for the rogue to disarm a trap, and some others running past into an ambush or crossfire. I have also joined a few declared zerging groups and had it go very well. It is the undeclared half-zerging/half non-zerging groups that ussually had the failures.

[bobbryan2]

Have you ever played a sorcerer? Ever try getting through a trap on elite? It's instant death from one mistake

You meant to ask if he's ever played a badly built sorc, right? The current hilariously high elite trap damage is a bug, not standard.

[illeatyu]

Hey

Im a trap monkey first bow ranger second, i have maxed my skills in detection and remove it's not that hard and I do good damage at range.

[bobbryan2]

and remove it's not that hard and I do good damage at range.

relative to what?

[Thriand]

Hey

Im a trap monkey first bow ranger second, i have maxed my skills in detection and remove it's not that hard and I do good damage at range.

Good thing reincarnation is coming

[Borror0]

Azmode, your post is all over the place. It's like you don't even know what you're replying to nor recall previous posts written by me.

To demonstrate that, let me copy/paste a few passages from previous posts in reply to your comments.

The fact is a lot of people CAN'T avoid traps. Especially when in a PUG.

"I don't disagree [that not everyone can avoid traps reliably] but there is a difference between that and making the affirmative claim that traps can't be overcame without being a drain on the cleric."

Either way, a group who doesn't wait the few seconds it takes for a good rogue to disable traps is losing out on good XP.

"A good party will not wait for the rogue to find the trap; they'll jump over the trap and let the rogue find the traps while they keep going. The rogue will only have to catch up once he disabled the traps (which are worth disabling only for the extra XP)."

Also, I see all types of people die by trying to avoid traps.

"Of course, you get bad players not knowing their limits and trying to imitate the good players but that's just unavoidable."

I'll also reply to this by quoting Ystradmynach:

What gets me is that in my months(maybe 9-10 total through the years) of playing I meet only a handful of rogues who actually say they aren't specced for traps. That's where the problem lies. As most rogues either blantly lie about being able to do traps, or simply don't know. Of course the latter isn't as bad as the previous.

"With that said, rogues have enough skill points that there is really little excuse not to put max ranks in spot, search and disable traps, especially being as there aren't many good skills to choose from. But I also think it is reasonable that most rogues won't specialize in those skills, and thus many rogues might be not be up to finding/disabling certain traps, especially on elite or above their level."

[spyyder976]

Nope. DPS is a rogue's job. If he or she can get the traps, I call it a bonus.

You're missing the point. Other classes can dish out damage easily. Only rogues disable.

[Borror0]

You're missing the point. Other classes can dish out damage easily. Only rogues disable.

Other races have racial bonuses with certain weapons. Only drows have bonuses with shuriken.

[transtemporal]

Rogue skills on a rogue (or mostly rogue) require so little thinking that if you can't fit them and great dps, I would wonder why you were making a rogue and not a straight dps ranger or something.

[Mazeratti]

If you run through a dungeon quickly, you earn more XP per minute than if you took your time. As a result, you get a lot of parties zerging through the instance. A good party will not wait for the rogue to find the trap; they'll jump over the trap and let the rogue find the traps while they keep going. The rogue will only have to catch up once he disabled the traps (which are worth disabling only for the extra XP).

Of course, you get bad players not knowing their limits and trying to imitate the good players but that's just unavoidable.

Important point.

Well isnt that counter-productive if the rogue was built for DPS and traps... what is the rogue going to DPS ? the trap box??

Its a waste of DPS... how about we wait a couple of secs for the rogue to find and disable the trap, scoop the XPfrom the trap and those few secs you lost will be earned back in double time when the mob fall quicker because your Rogue is right behind you stealin ppls kills

I like that scenario better but I know ppl dont think that way, and most likely why Rogues tend to say I dont disable traps (translated Id rather be up the front fighting with you guys)

[karnokvolrath]

Other races have racial bonuses with certain weapons. Only drows have bonuses with shuriken.

OHHH pwnage - Anyway i guess ill through my two worthless cents out there.....Ive been dinking around with rogues of late, and honestly i REALLY dont see how people are having issues with this. Heres the thing with any class, do your research, figure out the plan and go from there. Almost by default most rogue sould be at least half arsed be able to trap stuff. This also comes back to just poor judgement or lack of knowledge. If your playing a 2rogue/3rngr and the LFM says STK/DELARAS ELITE - NEED ROUGE and there are 3 barbs in the party....do you really think you sould apply? Odds are the leader of that party is looking to take the slow and steady wins the race route and will prefere the traps be disabled. On the other hand, if your a trap monky *** are doing in kobald assault anyway? I think this all boils down too a few simple things, people not paying attention to whats going on (classic PUG material). And just lack of communication. I dont care if everyone in your group either zergs or everyone waits, just so long as its understood what the plan is.

[SableShadow]

I think the whole argument is just too polarized.

Honestly, if you're running a lotta stuff over your level (and you probably will be until you've hit at least double digit levels), just grab Mechanic I and figure it out from there. Swap to another PrE (or none) once your leveling slows to a rate that you can keep your gear (all of it) right at best spec.

I only start to get a sour stomach when I see folks talking about taking Nimble Fingers and such ... Feats are for Fighting.

[Azmode]

Azmode, your post is all over the place. It's like you don't even know what you're replying to nor recall previous posts written by me.

To demonstrate that, let me copy/paste a few passages from previous posts in reply to your comments.

"I don't disagree [that not everyone can avoid traps reliably] but there is a difference between that and making the affirmative claim that traps can't be overcame without being a drain on the cleric."

"A good party will not wait for the rogue to find the trap; they'll jump over the trap and let the rogue find the traps while they keep going. The rogue will only have to catch up once he disabled the traps (which are worth disabling only for the extra XP)."

"Of course, you get bad players not knowing their limits and trying to imitate the good players but that's just unavoidable."

I'll also reply to this by quoting Ystradmynach:
"With that said, rogues have enough skill points that there is really little excuse not to put max ranks in spot, search and disable traps, especially being as there aren't many good skills to choose from. But I also think it is reasonable that most rogues won't specialize in those skills, and thus many rogues might be not be up to finding/disabling certain traps, especially on elite or above their level."

THIS THREAD, is all over the place. I simply was looking for an answer like "Without pure spec and equipment a rogue will never be able to find a CP on a elite trap of the same level".

No, not all traps are a pain - some are easy, aye. This thread is obviously not about those traps. It's about the ones that are hard to avoid, especially for the classes that can't... Jump ; ). I mean, if only I could count how many times the rogue wasn't able to disable atrap - causing the group to ATTEMPT to jump it.. .And some failing miserably. This is in fact the reason why I always am the last person in the group to avoid any trap that way I can get soulstones. BUT, never every class is a Monk/Rogue/Ranger, and traps are a pain in the ass to them.

I never said rogues had to spec... I know that definitely isn't the case. And see - even you agree - there is no reason a rogue should go without max search and disable trap. NO matter the build of the rogue. I mean, seriously, after UMD, Sneak, and Hide, IMO Search and Disable trap would be ideal.

Well, that's good your zerging groups at least get the traps. All that bonus XP adds up.

Anyone who says rogues can't do great burst and situational DPS has obviously never seen one in action.

[Borror0]

No, not all traps are a pain - some are easy, aye. This thread is obviously not about those traps.

Interesting. Care to give an example?

It's about the ones that are hard to avoid, especially for the classes that can't... Jump ; )

There is no such class.

I never said rogues had to spec... I know that definitely isn't the case.

"A rogue who doesn't disable, is like a wizard who melees only." -Azmode

Seems like you did.

[...] there is no reason a rogue should go without max search and disable trap. NO matter the build of the rogue.

Maximum ranks in Search and Disable? Obviously. It's just such an easy trade. It's worth it.

However, that's not all you're asking for. You're asking for more. You want a rogue who can always succeed to disable all devices. Sorry but, while leveling up, that's just not going to happen. It's unrealistic standard unless you expect the rogue to be twinked out (and even there...) or to gimp himself out y picking up Mechanics or Nimble Finger, Skill Focus, etc.

Moreover, you're presenting rogues as only capable of disabling traps and unworthy of a spot otherwise with claims such as "You may think rogues are assassins in disguise but the main reason you got the nifty /invitation to a party 99% of the time is to disable traps." which is a ludicrous claim.

[Noctus]

You may think rogues are assassins in disguise but the main reason you got the nifty /invitation to a party 99% of the time is to disable traps.

No. Simply not true.

DPS is a rogue's job. If he or she can get the traps, I call it a bonus.

Thats it.

[Munesai]

Drow rogues have high int.
The end.

[Mav145]

This is a little silly that we are arguing over this.

I have an assassin build and get some silly, insane amount of skill points. Silly to the point of max'ing out the required skills and then going....hmmm, haggle, jump....no, that's at 20, swim......., no, that's just crucible......ok, diplo (so I can diplo that monster off on the sorc...what fun!).

Granted, I have some capped toons and I pass down +5 tools and lots of gear but it's hard to screw up a rogue.

Find some specialty weapons (I like for the devils to have to survive the banish check and the assassinate check) such as banishers, smiters, and disrupters. Get some good search, spot, and disable goggles. Bam! You are set.