Rogues who don't Disable!

[Arlith]

I find it funny, everyone arguing over what the rogue's primary job is.

The answer is - Yes. To everyone. Rogues, like all the other classes can take very different paths. So for those of you who want DPS, dps is the primary job. Those of you who want trapsmithing, that's your primary job.

You can make the character any **** way you please.

For those of you bytching about OPR's (other people's rogues), go play your own **** rogue. If you don't have one, go roll your own **** rogue.

For those of you playing your own **** rogues, play it as you want. But be aware that parties will on occasion want a specific type of rogue, don't get ****ed if they pass you by on their search for their version of the perfect rogue.

[bandyman1]

The problem is that as long as you max the skills, and grab a +15 item, you can spot, search, and disable every trap in the game on elite, other than Cabal, and the new quests in the Inspired Quarter.

I'm sorry. But there's no-way in hell I'm going to gimp my assassin melee-wise, for 5 quests on the entire list.

[Zorlinta]

There are so many rogue builds, so to step over confusions & troubles keep the proper advertise on ur LFG or ask to the player if will be able to fullfill the rol you need when joins the party. So thats simple and best way to deal with


btw. shal by the way just couple quest now, lets wait for more epic quest become hehehe

[Shamguard]

Lecturing Ram on rogues is like trying to educate the pope on catholicism: you can do it, you may even make a point or two, but no one's going to take you that seriously.

I guess we don't all have the same opinion of Rameses rogue advice or abilities.
Besides I'm a Baptist and personaly don't have a high opion of the pope either.

Shamguard, the concept is not who can reach capped level the fastest for a pure zerger.
It's "I want to get my newest build into raids and crafting as fast as possible with my friends and guildies."
Now granted yes elite traps are not a joke. But then that's all part of the learning curve.
I'm not concerned about favor, I've already capped out favor on 4 characters. +2 tomes are now uncommon drops so 1750 is not an incentive. 32 pt characters are now buyable. Follow my point yet.

Yes, my play style is different from yours, obviously. I don't/won't judge you. But when you judge me, don't be offened if I heckle you.

I am, Rameses!

I doubt our actual playstyles are all that much different, because we both play the same game and we know what works best in DDO and ufortunatly it is not a stealth based rogue.

That doesn't mean I cannot lament the lack of what realy makes a D&D style rogue unique or the loss of what we had in this game that helped make rogues not just another DPS class (like they are in other MMOs), but true specialists that had a unique function in the game.

When someone who is look at as being a rogue "expert" says they don't do traps only amplifies this attitude of rogues being just another DPS class. I prefer to see my rogues as something more than just fighter and that is why I will always have rogues that can disable traps, pick locks, and umd scrolls and wands.(Without spalshing in other classes.) Because there is no other class that can do all of these things as well as a well built rogue.


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[Drakons20]

If you run through a dungeon quickly, you earn more XP per minute than if you took your time. As a result, you get a lot of parties zerging through the instance. A good party will not wait for the rogue to find the trap; they'll jump over the trap and let the rogue find the traps while they keep going. The rogue will only have to catch up once he disabled the traps (which are worth disabling only for the extra XP).

Of course, you get bad players not knowing their limits and trying to imitate the good players but that's just unavoidable.

Important point.

Good luck with that with the new damage on Elite traps. 808 damage tonight in a level 11 House J Elite quest from a trap and I made the save. We had no Rogue, so saying DPS is a Rogues job is stupid. Undead your useless DPS, Elementals your useless DPS, anything wearing Heavy Fort your useless DPS. Get your skills max and have a 14 Int. Make yourself useful.

[prophet1]

i have a 18 wiz 2 rouge abd can open mostlocks or traps so it linda baffles methat some rougrs cab t cause im noy a trap opening build jusy kinda thrtew a few points in for fun tell them just to use + 5 tooks and skill booost with gm thats 15 + without enabe abd lvl bonises for lvl thive skills ect so a rouge can do traps should just be renamed and made a class called assasins lol

[Slap_Happy]

Good luck with that with the new damage on Elite traps. 808 damage tonight in a level 11 House J Elite quest from a trap and I made the save. We had no Rogue, so saying DPS is a Rogues job is stupid. Undead your useless DPS, Elementals your useless DPS, anything wearing Heavy Fort your useless DPS. Get your skills max and have a 14 Int. Make yourself useful.

reroll ur attitude. makes u lost. plenty of ways to get sneak attacks on stuff with heavy fort. so that leaves elementals and undead thats like telling a fire specced sorc that since they cant cast firewall on the pit fiend in the shroud that they should have all buffing spells and instakill spells and wait till borror breaks u down with some facts

[Borror0]

Good luck with that with the new damage on Elite traps. 808 damage tonight in a level 11 House J Elite quest from a trap and I made the save.

That's temporary since it's a bug.

We had no Rogue, so saying DPS is a Rogues job is stupid.

No, it's not.

Undead your useless DPS, Elementals your useless DPS, anything wearing Heavy Fort your useless DPS.

Obviously. I view the undead and Fortification problems as design flaws that designers have interests in correcting.

It's perfectly fine for rogues to have lower DPS against these foes but not as low as it is now.

[krud]

Nope. DPS is a rogue's job. If he or she can get the traps, I call it a bonus.

But it isn't a choice of either dps or traps. How often do you fight mobs at the same time a trap needs to be disabled? rarely. So when they are not dpsing, and a trap is there the rogue should be able to handle it (if level appropriate). It's such a trivial investment for a rogue, and doesn't have to affect dps one iota. There is only one skill that will help a rogue in the dps department, diplomacy (ok bluff too, but it sux). What else is a rogue going to invest his skill points into to boost his dps? Balance, perhaps. That still leaves 5 or more skill points per level for everything else. Not being able to get trap skills with that many skill points is worse than a battle cleric who does not heal. At least the cleric would be capable of healing if they so choose.

I can understand the newb who doesn't have all the gear yet. At least they'll give it a try, but purposely building a rogue incapable of doing traps seems pointless.

[Borror0]

krud, if you had taken the time to read the rest of the thread you would have seen that I addressed all those points.

[whysper]

Nope. DPS is a rogue's job. If he or she can get the traps, I call it a bonus.

No, DPS is not a Rogue's job either. Surely this is not so difficult?

If your Rogue does DPS, and cannot disable etc., then you join when a group looks for melee (or ranged, or whatever.)

If your Rogue does traps, but no DPS, then you join when the group looks for a trapmonkey.

If your Rogue does both, then you can join either.

If your Rogue does something else entirely, you join when the appropriate talents are in search.

[Borror0]

No, DPS is not a Rogue's job either. Surely this is not so difficult?

What you wrote does not support this claim.

[bobbryan2]

No, DPS is not a Rogue's job either. Surely this is not so difficult?

If your Rogue does DPS, and cannot disable etc., then you join when a group looks for melee (or ranged, or whatever.)

If your Rogue does traps, but no DPS, then you join when the group looks for a trapmonkey.

If your Rogue does both, then you can join either.

If your Rogue does something else entirely, you join when the appropriate talents are in search.

Well, I wouldn't join a group that just wanted a trap monkey even if I 'was' a trapmonkey.

The group will probably stumble.

[Ereshkigal]

If your on Argo, go ahead and add Ashling to you friends list. She's an Assassin Build, but does not neglect the skills needed for traps and locks.

On another note: My favorite rogue that I played in Pen and Paper D&D completely ignored the skills for traps and locks. He was built as a fast talking con-man and would recruit followers that he could talk into doing nearly anything for him (including walking into a trap to set it off before the rest of the party got hit by it).

My favorite adventure with this guy: Our group heard rumor of a guard unit invading a large bandit camp and had the captured bandits and the loot from their camp stored in a guard tower waiting to be transported back to the city. We gathered outside of the guard tower and the group starts talking about different ways to get in. Some were breaking out grappling hooks and talking about entering from a top window, and my rogue hops up and says "why don't we just try to front door" runs off and knocks on the door of the guard tower.

After talking to the guard at the door, my rogue talked the guard into inviting the whole party inside for dinner and drinks. My rogue after dinner starts playing drinking games with the guard, and through using slight of hand kept getting the guards more drunk without having to take a single drink himself. Once the guards were passed out, or too drunk to stand, my party walked out the front door with all the loot and never had to draw a weapon.

The vast majority of groups do not wait for traps. I have a rogue that I do not play often, and if it's a good group that really is running well without my help in killing stuff, I will run around and try to get all the traps before completion just to get a little extra xp for the group. It's rather challening in some quests and near impossible in others. The fact is people rarely care about traps, just running through them to get to the end.

That is why many rogues don't even bother to train trap skills. Sure it's not difficult to get a moderate level of ability in trapsmithing, but when there is little need or opportunity to do so, lots of people have decided they shouldn't bother training the skills at all.

right or wrong, that's the way things have headed. Personally I would find it interesting if traps suddenly started doing 2x current damage on normal, 4x current damage on hard, and 6x current damage on elite. But then that would anger a lot of people who have devised their characters based on the current trap damage, so who knows what will happen. The current massive damage happening on elite damage has been said to be a bug, perhaps it was a stealth-test to see what reactions would be?

[Ereshkigal]

I find it funny, everyone arguing over what the rogue's primary job is.

The answer is - Yes. To everyone. Rogues, like all the other classes can take very different paths. So for those of you who want DPS, dps is the primary job. Those of you who want trapsmithing, that's your primary job.

You can make the character any **** way you please.

For those of you bytching about OPR's (other people's rogues), go play your own **** rogue. If you don't have one, go roll your own **** rogue.

For those of you playing your own **** rogues, play it as you want. But be aware that parties will on occasion want a specific type of rogue, don't get ****ed if they pass you by on their search for their version of the perfect rogue.

Sweet, **** isn't a bad word. **** **** **** **** ****

[SableShadow]

I guess we don't all have the same opinion of Rameses rogue advice or abilities.

This is the forums, we're all uber here. I don't know you from adam, but I've seen Ram in action. Which way do you think I'm going to swing?

Besides I'm a Baptist and personaly don't have a high opion of the pope either.

A little obtuse there, eh?

I doubt our actual playstyles are all that much different, because we both play the same game and we know what works best in DDO

Probably.

I hear the subtext of what I generally see you posting: don't cripple the diversity inherent in the class to make it a dps monster. And I agree with it.

I find some of your posts a little too far on trapmonkey side of the trapmonkey vs barb w/ SA scale...I mean, the traps stuff is just accounting, right? It's the easiest single thing you can do as a rogue, bar none.

The game needs more rabid little badgers taking stuff down that they really shouldn't be able to, not more people that put their hands in their pockets in Rayray Epic just because the end boss happens to be undead.

and unfortunatly it is not a stealth based rogue.

Has it's uses.

[Twerpp]

Yeah if I had to dump int for a stellar melee rogue I might be tempted to say screw it. The gear associated with 2WF and AC are bad enough. Toss in +int items, tools, find traps scrolls, everything needed to get a non-trap spec rogue to hit elite numbers its a pain in the ass.

I look at it like this combat first. If you build with enough int for combat expertise though, chances are you will have too many skill points to not do traps, you simply wont know where to spend them all. If you dump int at 8 and stick with a power attack stanced guy, it could be different.

[Shamguard]

This is the forums, we're all uber here. I don't know you from adam, but I've seen Ram in action. Which way do you think I'm going to swing?

I won't ask and you don't have to tell.

I hear the subtext of what I generally see you posting: don't cripple the diversity inherent in the class to make it a dps monster. And I agree with it.

I find some of your posts a little too far on trapmonkey side of the trapmonkey vs barb w/ SA scale...I mean, the traps stuff is just accounting, right? It's the easiest single thing you can do as a rogue, bar none.

If it just accounting why do so many players have trouble with it?

The game needs more rabid little badgers taking stuff down that they really shouldn't be able to, not more people that put their hands in their pockets in Rayray Epic just because the end boss happens to be undead.

A well built rogue can be effective in just about any situation. You just need to know how to deal with the situation(s) you are weak in and equip to make up for that weakness.

Has it's uses.

Stealth is more useful either solo, or with a group that can work with it. It is also useful when things go sideways in a PuG. I've salvaged more than one quest by using stealth and smarts to recover from near TPW and I'm sure Ram has also.


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[SableShadow]

If it just accounting why do so many players have trouble with it?

I can't read minds, but from the questions I occasionally get in tells there are a lot of people who don't understand that this isn't WoW. You don't auto-magically make your skill checks; you're gear (not just trap gear) needs to be kept up to snuff if you expect the skill to work, and if you're running quests very far uplevel you're going to need cutting edge gear or you're going to need enhancements...sometimes both.

Or at least that's what I see on Argo.

A well built rogue can be effective in just about any situation. You just need to know how to deal with the situation(s) you are weak in and equip to make up for that weakness.

Exactly. But if we don't ween them from the 'rogues are for traps' BS that's been floating around since the game was launched, that's what we end up with at the cap: folks that buy into the 'no traps = hands in pockets'. And that helps no one, not the player who thinks that, not the reputation of the class, and not the opinions of folks putting up lfms.

Stealth is more useful either solo, or with a group that can work with it. It is also useful when things go sideways in a PuG. I've salvaged more than one quest by using stealth and smarts to recover from near TPW and I'm sure Ram has also.

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And again, exactly.

[Borror0]

Exactly. But if we don't ween them from the 'rogues are for traps' BS that's been floating around since the game was launched, that's what we end up with at the cap: folks that buy into the 'no traps = hands in pockets'.

This!