Shadow Conjuration/Evocation Series

[Surrealistik]

No... really all your suggestion is going to do is create a drop down menu spell (ala resist energy, protection from energy, teleport, greater teleport) that will have more save chances, and less damage.

You will run into the issues where people will cast them, then complain that they can't cast the actual. Why? Same timer. So there won't be chainning of spells of this manner.

What "fun" does it add to the game.... emm... a little bit of flavor... little more back ground for rp, more use for the random +1 DC to illusion spells...

More coding nightmares when more spells are added to the game.

I just can't see enough positive to over come the negative here. Discussion ENDED. (so feel free to ignore this post because I ****ing hate threads that say "discuss".)

Actually damage is the same, save chances are increased.

Why should there be shared cooldowns?

Also, you seemed to have missed the part of the OP explaining that specific emulated spells could be prepared in a hotslot so they could be used on a fly.

Lastly, I don't see how it is such a coding nightmare when the majority of the spell's coding preparation involves copy/pasting and collating of existing code.

[sephiroth1084]

Way to completely ignore my points Surreal. You fail to show why a wizard would need any more spell slots/flexibility, or what sorcs would be preparing in lieu of their current nuking suite.

Currently, they have/need 2 cold spells, 2 fire spells, and 1 acid spell (Cone, Lance, DBF or Swarm and FW, and Acid Fog). What other damage spells are we adding in here? Chain Lightning?

There is no reason to have Halt Undead as a permanent spell slot. Against a lot of undead, the scroll version is just as good. For a wizard, you just drop one of your spells that don't work on undead for that in undead-heavy quests.

Niac's is mediocre, but also doesn't need to be swapped out for anything pressing until it is completely useless--go to House P for Jump if you really need, use a wand for RoE...

Invisibility is a waste of mana in EVERY instance! There is NO reason to ever cast this spell--use a clicky, a wand, a potion or a scroll. If you're sneaking somewhere, the 3 minute duration will usually be long enough, and if you are going to do anything at all that would break the spell, you end up losing TONS of SP recasting it. It is just as effective. Note that Ghoste, probably the character who has most utilized Invis, doesn't ever cast it from SP in any of his videos.

Why mention Hypo-P if it's not very good? Consistently useful? Maybe, but hardly worth preparing. Aside from the irritating graphics, it just doesn't do as much as most of the other spells you could be taking.

So your argument for these spells is to show a bunch of semi-useless or useless spell selections that can be included? How many different spells does a wizard cast in a particular quest for CC? How many more are needed? Why would a sorc give up 4 or 5 full-damage spells that attack the weakest save for the ability to cast those same 4 or 5 spells from one slot for 2 saves, one vs. a better save, and a spell pen. roll?

You mention that the spells afford more utility, but then claim that they come with significant downsides. You berated me for such contradictory statements when I was talking about two different spells and, therefore, not contradicting myself. What's your justification?

[Surrealistik]

Arguing with you is getting to be more of a time wasting sink than I would like so, again, brevity is key.

First, what points?

Second, concerning the Wizard, it's not about need or necessity so much as the class enjoying additional utility from having additional slots open, and effectively having multiple spells prepared in the same slot (e.g. Web and Glitterdust). Again, it's not as useful for the Wizard as it is for the Sorc, but it is useful nonetheless. Clearly, most of the additional spells you can prepare beyond the initial staples (that's why they're not first choice staples, duh) do not feature the same effectiveness, but typically, have some niche role or remain viable nonetheless. Your denouncement of several (especially Hypnotic P) is loaded with the usual puerile hyperbole.

Third, having ready access to burst damage spells that do damage types other than fire/cold is useful (acid fog is not utilized for damage dealing primarily), particularly mass damage spells (yeah, Chain Lightning isn't bad) if said caster has Disintegrate.

Lastly, the definition of "contradictory" clearly, albeit unsurprisingly seems to elude you. As stated, I responded to your accusations of contradiction because you essentially grouped the two spells into the same assessment. In your case, a poorly communicated idea has nothing to do with my own; it is not at all contradictory to state that something affords more utility but comes with substantial compensating downsides.


As for the spell criticisms, they are again predictably deficient.

Mirror Image: It may be tricky to find the balance middle ground, but it is possible. It is simply a matter of cooldown tweaking, and scaling the image count with caster level.

Color Spray/Ghost Sound: Area of effect daze as a L1 spell that works on any HD count isn't useful? You do realize that daze person only works on a single target right (probably why it isn't used, and is clearly underpowered for its slot)?

Project Image: A couple of things keep this balanced (btw, the implicit assertion that it was "balanced" in PnP with risks really highlights your lack of familiarity with the system and contingency spells).
1: Image fragility; your image cannot self-buff, and if it takes a damaging hit, it dissipates; likely to happen when it takes aggro.

2: You need line of sight to your Image.

3: Duration and range: properly tweaked, these will keep it in line.

Again, it's pretty easy to conceptualize the implementation (coding is perhaps another story). You have an image control mode. Selecting an image and selecting this mode allows you to control the selected image as if you were controlling your own body (which you now do not receive any sensory input from save damage indication). Deactivating the mode allows you to control your own body again.

[sephiroth1084]

Arguing with you is getting to be more of a time wasting sink than I would like so, again, brevity is key.

First, what points?

Second, concerning the Wizard, it's not about need or necessity so much as the class enjoying additional utility from having additional slots open, and effectively having multiple spells prepared in the same slot (e.g. Web and Glitterdust). Again, it's not as useful for the Wizard as it is for the Sorc, but it is useful nonetheless. Clearly, most of the additional spells you can prepare beyond the initial staples (that's why they're not first choice staples, duh) do not feature the same effectiveness, but typically, have some niche role or remain viable nonetheless. Your denouncement of several (especially Hypnotic P) is loaded with the usual puerile hyperbole.

Third, having ready access to burst damage spells that do damage types other than fire/cold is useful (acid fog is not utilized for damage dealing primarily), particularly mass damage spells (yeah, Chain Lightning isn't bad) if said caster has Disintegrate.


Color Spray/Ghost Sound: Area of effect daze as a L1 spell that works on any HD count isn't useful? You do realize that daze person only works on a single target right (probably why it isn't used, and is clearly underpowered for its slot)?

Project Image: A couple of things keep this balanced (btw, the implicit assertion that it was "balanced" in PnP with risks really highlights your lack of familiarity with the system and contingency spells).
1: Image fragility; your image cannot self-buff, and if it takes a damaging hit, it dissipates; likely to happen when it takes aggro.

2: You need line of sight to your Image.

3: Duration and range: properly tweaked, these will keep it in line.

Again, it's pretty easy to conceptualize the implementation (coding is perhaps another story). You have an image control mode. Selecting an image and selecting this mode allows you to control the selected image as if you were controlling your own body (which you now do not receive any sensory input from save damage indication). Deactivating the mode allows you to control your own body again.

You continue to ignore even the simplest concepts in terms of how DDO functions vs. PnP. Why should a wizard, who has enough spell slots to prepare whatever he needs for a given situation already, want to prepare worse versions of his best spells (adding Will saves to Web?!) just so he can keep around other mediocre or niche spells all the time? How does that make any sense? You don't gain ANYTHING from diluting your most potent spells with a bunch of other junk!

Continuing, what other burst damage spells, aside from Fire and Ice would one be using later in the game? Sure, there may be a few levels where having Fireball and Acid Burst and Electric Loop available for a sorc will be worthwhile, but what do we face in the mid levels that is both resistant to fireball and cone of cold, but not acid? At end game, why would we be using a a spell whose damage is capped at considerably less than 15d6? Why would we use such a spell that also has two saves against its effects?

Later in the game, what do we face that makes having all of Cone of Cold, Chain Lightning and DBF available? Electricity shows all red numbers vs. most of the enemies we encounter, but cold merely loses around 30 points, while it gains (in all likelihood), +40% damage, and better crits. Maybe +20% damage, if we spend some points on the electric/acid line...but that's still dealing much more damage. Oh, and currently Chain Lightning is broken. And again, what is being prepared in place of CoC? Yeah, giving up an 8th level slot for an extra 7th in DDO would be worthwhile, but would it be worth coding something to just do that?

Finally, I come to your thoughts on some of the spells you think should be implemented...

You suggest that we make a mass daze monster...at the same level of daze monster? Oh, and the mass version also isn't affected by HD, so it's better in every way. So, this is your argument for getting rid of Daze Monster, is it? Fine, no one uses the spell anyway, but, how is this better than Hypnotism? If it is better, why is it also a 1st level spell, and would it be good enough to ever bother preparing it as a 2nd level spell? If it isn't better, why bother making it at all?

As for Project Image, what would we use it for? It can't fight, it would require an incredible amount of programming, and for what? A scout? You can't break LoS with it, so all you can do is what's at the end of the hallway? How often does a group give a rogue or ranger time to sneak ahead and see what's going on? And if you want it just to spring traps...we have Summon Monster I scrolls for that.


You can couch your "arguments" and your insults in masterful vocabulary, but that doesn't change the fact that you appear to be incapable of rational thought, weighing benefits and consequences, and apparently aren't especially familiar with DDO.

I've argued the points enough. Others can see what you apparently cannot, so there's really no more point in attempting to make clear anything to you.

[Surrealistik]

You continue to ignore even the simplest concepts in terms of how DDO functions vs. PnP. Why should a wizard, who has enough spell slots to prepare whatever he needs for a given situation already, want to prepare worse versions of his best spells (adding Will saves to Web?!) just so he can keep around other mediocre or niche spells all the time? How does that make any sense? You don't gain ANYTHING from diluting your most potent spells with a bunch of other junk!

Continuing, what other burst damage spells, aside from Fire and Ice would one be using later in the game? Sure, there may be a few levels where having Fireball and Acid Burst and Electric Loop available for a sorc will be worthwhile, but what do we face in the mid levels that is both resistant to fireball and cone of cold, but not acid? At end game, why would we be using a a spell whose damage is capped at considerably less than 15d6? Why would we use such a spell that also has two saves against its effects?

Later in the game, what do we face that makes having all of Cone of Cold, Chain Lightning and DBF available? Electricity shows all red numbers vs. most of the enemies we encounter, but cold merely loses around 30 points, while it gains (in all likelihood), +40% damage, and better crits. Maybe +20% damage, if we spend some points on the electric/acid line...but that's still dealing much more damage. Oh, and currently Chain Lightning is broken. And again, what is being prepared in place of CoC? Yeah, giving up an 8th level slot for an extra 7th in DDO would be worthwhile, but would it be worth coding something to just do that?

Again, the value of having access to virtually every conjuration spell in each level underneath the corresponding Shadow Conj predictably escapes you. It is obviously worthwhile in cases to prepare SC when you need to make use of niche/alternative spells, besides being potentially worthwhile outside of these scenarios.

As for Shadow Evo, As for mid level enemies immune/resistant to fire/cold, blackbones, and certain oozes readily come to mind, just off the top of my head. Now, as for CoC with -30 resist vs Chain Lighting (concerned with enhancements alone):

15d6 = 52 * 1.4 = 73.5 and maxed out crit boosters increase the average damage to 81.76. Subtract 30, and we have 51.76

20d6 = 70 * 1.2 = 84

And if we reinvest some points from the fire/ice crit boosters (which really aren't all that great in terms of the net average damage enhancement) to the acid/lightning damage boosters, we have even better performance.



Finally, I come to your thoughts on some of the spells you think should be implemented...

You suggest that we make a mass daze monster...at the same level of daze monster? Oh, and the mass version also isn't affected by HD, so it's better in every way. So, this is your argument for getting rid of Daze Monster, is it? Fine, no one uses the spell anyway, but, how is this better than Hypnotism? If it is better, why is it also a 1st level spell, and would it be good enough to ever bother preparing it as a 2nd level spell? If it isn't better, why bother making it at all?

Daze Monster is a pretty terrible spell in need of overhauling, it really shouldn't be 2nd level to begin with; Hypnotism is vastly superior at L1. That said, Hypnotism is quite different from Ghost Noise (I've already listed crucial differences relative to Colour Spray earlier in the thread) in that GN can be used to create distractions, lasts for its full (probably 6 second) duration regardless of damage dealt, but is useless versus creatures that cannot hear, may use a different save (Fortitude perhaps), and may be mitigated by things that resist/immunize to Sonic damages/sound.

As for Project Image, what would we use it for? It can't fight, it would require an incredible amount of programming, and for what? A scout? You can't break LoS with it, so all you can do is what's at the end of the hallway? How often does a group give a rogue or ranger time to sneak ahead and see what's going on? And if you want it just to spring traps...we have Summon Monster I scrolls for that.

Actually it can cast; again, your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. As for uses, aggro draw that also permits you to cast around corners and barriers at minimal risk to yourself, fully controllable trap tripping, risk free kiting, virtual spell range extension are just a few off the top of my head.


You can couch your "arguments" and your insults in masterful vocabulary, but that doesn't change the fact that you appear to be incapable of rational thought, weighing benefits and consequences, and apparently aren't especially familiar with DDO.

I've argued the points enough. Others can see what you apparently cannot, so there's really no more point in attempting to make clear anything to you.

Only in your own mind Sephy, but we both knew that, didn't we? Again, projecting your deficits is a very poor practice.

[a.out]

Necro'd to tell all those who ask for the reason to add this that it would be *awesome* for bards ... it would give them more options aside from being either buffbots or mediocore melees. I guess it would be a nice synergy w/ spellsingers and to a lesser extend w/ virtuosos with max charisma ( as they could use wiz nukes to do some damage ).