Shadow Conjuration/Evocation Series

[Surrealistik]

Two of the key spell sets that gave Illusion, at present an arguably underpowered school, a lot of its value have not been added to this game. These spell sets are the Shadow Conjuration and Evocation series:

Shadow Conjuration

Greater Shadow Conjuration

Shades

Shadow Evocation

Greater Shadow Evocation

These permitted an Illusionist exceptional versatility at the cost of raw power, and this versatility was in large part what made the school competitive with its peers.

The advantages of implementing these series are manyfold:

First, Illusion DC boosting is given a point beyond Phantasmal Killer.

Second, Illusion becomes a competitive school overall.

Third, implementing these spells should prove relatively easy, since most of the code can be copy/pasted.


There is one outstanding problem: How would a player go about choosing the right spell in a time critical situation?

The answer is to allow the player to predefine as many different spells each instance of Shadow series can cast as he likes, with each predefined spell occupying a separate hotbar slot. Mouse 1 or left click casts a spell in the submenu of a Shadow spell, and Mouse 2 or right click predefines it. Discuss.

[sephiroth1084]

Those spells (shadow evocation/conjuration) are great in PnP where dropping Evocation on a Specialist wizard is usually a good idea, but in DDO, there really isn't much point. Nuking is already slightly handicapped later in the game with all the multipliers we can tack onto our spell damage.

We don't have school specializations, so why would anyone ever cast a Shadow Fireball instead of a regular Fireball? Just to get some more use out of Spell Focus: Illusion? They would get far more mileage out of Spell Focus: Evocation, and even that is fairly pointless--Reflex saves tend to be the lowest save on most monsters at endgame, and then, even if they do save, you're usually dealing damage anyway, so it's not that big a deal.

Mid-game, SF: Illusion is worthwhile, somewhat, for just one spell as that spell is very good. As it stands, how many useful/popular spells in DDO gain a benefit from a spell focus anyway? The feats are usually taken for just 2 or 3 very useful spells.

It'd be nice if we had more spell variety, and had instances where a greater range of spells were useful, but I don't think that this is going to solve that issue.

[sephiroth1084]

I don't want to seem overly negative, shooting down an otherwise useful attempt at modifying the game (realize I've done this in a few threads recently), but any time a change is suggested there are a few questions one should ask oneself before suggesting them:

-What problem is this going to fix?
-Is fixing this problem important enough to warrant the time spent working on it?
-Would anyone be interested in this change? How many people? Why?
-Does this break, or otherwise negate/obsolete, something else in the game?
-Does this add to the feel or mechanics of the game in some meaningful way?

[Surrealistik]

Keep in mind that not all Evo spells are nukes, and that both Shadow series are *excellent* for Sorcerers who have a very limited spell selection. Further, as you have mentioned, it is only really late game that nuking begins to lack in potency; at that point in the game you would use the shadow series to provide buffs, summons, or inflict secondary effects, or otherwise do something that doesn't rely on damage output.

Further, I really dispute the idea of SF:Illusion being useful compared to alternate feats that could be taken mid-game. I also wouldn't call PK a "very good" spell. A nice pick for its level, but far from overwhelming in the same way Banshee, FoD or Firewall are for their level.

Lastly, I do agree that increased spell variety would certainly help in making illusion a school that's more attractive and balanced with its peers; this series will introduce some of that needed variety.

-What problem is this going to fix?

The Illusion school's decidedly lackluster showing, where end game it has exactly one useful spell to its name (and at any given time, has debatably 2 at most).

-Is fixing this problem important enough to warrant the time spent working on it?

Given that there is actually very little work involved as most of the code can be copy pasted (emulated spells, and spells with sub-menus that point to sub-spells), most definitely.

-Would anyone be interested in this change? How many people? Why?

Virtually every Sorcerer in the game, probably the majority of arcane casters overall.

-Does this break, or otherwise negate/obsolete, something else in the game?

Don't think so.

-Does this add to the feel or mechanics of the game in some meaningful way?

Most definitely; players are presented with more interesting, relevant choices when deciding which spells to learn/prepare.

[sephiroth1084]

Keep in mind that not all Evo spells are nukes, and that both Shadow series are *excellent* for Sorcerers who have a very limited spell selection. Further, as you have mentioned, it is only really late game that nuking begins to lack in potency; at that point in the game you would use the shadow series to provide buffs, summons, or inflict secondary effects, or otherwise do something that doesn't rely on damage output.

Further, I really dispute the idea of SF:Illusion being useful compared to alternate feats that could be taken mid-game. I also wouldn't call PK a "very good" spell. A nice pick for its level, but far from overwhelming in the same way Banshee, FoD or Firewall are for their level.

What Evocation spells in game currently have a save but are not nuking spells?

Again, why would even a sorc sacrifice 40% of their damage to take this? At the level that these become available, we gain access to fire wall (best spell of its level), then Cone of Cold the level after (again, one of the best nuking selections for several levels).

PK is very useful when it becomes available, and continues to be for some time after FoD comes around--first, being the only point and die spell, then as a secondary version for the moments when you want to be killing stuff quickly. Given that it is probably the most useful spell that requires a save for several levels, taking SF: Illusion when youget PK and then swapping it out for something else down the road is a reasonable idea.

As for Shadow Conjuration, summon monsters are not especially useful in DDO, and can be cast off of a scroll for the exact same value without taking up a spell slot. The other conjurations either have no save, or work well most of the time without SF anyway.

Let's look at this from a different perspective now.


Will this benefit sorcerers who have limited spell selection? Yes, but, that limited spell selection is currently the only major balancing factor between sorcerers and wizards, and I cannot imagine that a wizard would take the Shadow spells, as they already have enough spell slots for almost anything they want to do. So, while it would benefit one class, it would ultimately upset what little balance there is between the two. As it is, there are few enough useful spells at each level that most people consider sorcerers almost strictly better than wizards to begin with. This would just be the nail in that coffin.

[Surrealistik]

What Evocation spells in game currently have a save but are not nuking spells?

Soundburst is more of a mass control spell than a nuking spell, as the damage is inconsequential, and a good one at that. The same is true of Electrical Loop. Second, you overestimate the damage nerf involved. A damage nerf only applies on a successful Will save, and other than that, the spell functions as normal. Being able to break out virtually any type or spread of damage on demand is indisputably useful, even if there is an additional Will save involved that potentially could reduce damage output.


Again, why would even a sorc sacrifice 40% of their damage to take this? At the level that these become available, we gain access to fire wall (best spell of its level), then Cone of Cold the level after (again, one of the best nuking selections for several levels).

It's not a de facto 40% damage reduction. That's assuming they succeed on their save. Further, you take this primarily because it gives you unprecedented utility and options. Even for Wizards it can prove useful in this sense as you are more likely to have what you need, when you need it.


PK is very useful when it becomes available, and continues to be for some time after FoD comes around--first, being the only point and die spell, then as a secondary version for the moments when you want to be killing stuff quickly. Given that it is probably the most useful spell that requires a save for several levels, taking SF: Illusion when youget PK and then swapping it out for something else down the road is a reasonable idea.

PK is good, but it is not Firewall good, and even if it were, it'd be nowhere near enough to really justify speccing Illusion on a lasting or even temporary basis. That's my point. You can't mount a case in Illusion's defense on the basis of PK alone; that would be intellectually dishonest and silly. It is clearly a school in need of some TLC and enhancement.


As for Shadow Conjuration, summon monsters are not especially useful in DDO, and can be cast off of a scroll for the exact same value without taking up a spell slot. The other conjurations either have no save, or work well most of the time without SF anyway.

Actually, I find summons quite useful for secondary tanking and meatshielding, while not necessarily being a premium choice. Second, Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Niac's Cold Ray, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, and Cloud Kill all definitely benefit from SF.


Will this benefit sorcerers who have limited spell selection? Yes, but, that limited spell selection is currently the only major balancing factor between sorcerers and wizards, and I cannot imagine that a wizard would take the Shadow spells, as they already have enough spell slots for almost anything they want to do. So, while it would benefit one class, it would ultimately upset what little balance there is between the two. As it is, there are few enough useful spells at each level that most people consider sorcerers almost strictly better than wizards to begin with. This would just be the nail in that coffin.

I appeciate the irony of your mutually contradicting and exclusive arguments. First you're trying to argue that these spell series wouldn't be useful enough to justify inclusion, then you're saying they would be so powerful as to unbalance the Sorcerer and Wizard relative to one another. It cannot be both. Further, a Wizard certainly can find utility in having a wide swath of spells effectively prepared simultaneously, especially at lower/mid levels.

The benefits of this sort versatility are obviously counterbalanced in ways that you've highlighted and then inflated with hyperbole; effectively paying more for a lower level spell that can prove somewhat less effective overall on a failed save.

[Aspenor]

Nuking is already slightly handicapped later in the game with all the multipliers we can tack onto our spell damage.

Really? It's handicapped? Well I'll be damned. I guess I'll tell my blaster that he's "handicapped" because he can solo most of Shavarath with sheer damage output.

PS to the OP:
I made a suggestion similar to this eons ago. It can still be found by doing an advanced forums search for "Illusionist" in the title and my name in the poster name. Illusion needs a major boost.

[sephiroth1084]

I've made a valid response. Prove it. Demonstrate it. Show me that your argument has merit, don't just claim to be "right".
"Level 1: Niac's Cold Ray -> Grease/Nightshield/Charm Person/Ray of Enfeeblement/Repair Light Damage
Level 2: Web -> Resist Energy/Hypnotic Pattern/Invisibility/Knock
Level 3: Acid Blast/Sleet Storm/Stinking Cloud -> Halt Undead/Slow/Chain Missiles/Suggestion "

Was that part of your valid response? Niac's is outdone by Scorching Ray and the Frost Lance, what wizard doesn't have Knock, Web, Resist prepared all the time anyway? Hypnotic Pattern is mediocre, Invis can be cast just as effectively off of a wand, scroll or consumed in potion form. Halt Undead is only situationally useful, and many of the other spells you mention wouldn't get used at the same time, in the same quest anyway. This was speaking about wizards, not sorcs, who can swap spells as needed.

The fact is, I did respond, and did provide a valid argument, which you seem to have ignored.

The fact is, there are only 2 or 3 nuking spells that are worth keeping around at any given level, so the Evocation version doesn't offer all that much economy, and does so with a fairly substantial downside.

On the other hand, the Conjuration version does essentially nothing for wizards, who already tend to have enough available spell slots for whatever they want to do, and can swap spells around if they need something in particular, while it does far too much to negate basically the only penalty sorcs get for their greater raw power. Even at reduced damage, few conjurations we use are thrown for their damage, and many don't even have a save.

You really want to "prove" how great these would be? Write up a full list of spells known for a sorc now and show how their selections would be impacted by these two spells, and how that both makes them more effective and does not impinge dramatically upon wizard's territory, by also doing the same for a wizard.

Mirror Image could be easily done; make it a standard buff, and simply have a series of ghostly duplicates (translucent to the caster and his allies) with no collision size move close along with the player (opponents see them as completely opaque). These duplicates mimic the animations of the caster. Anything that directly targets the caster has a chance to be completely negated by one of the duplicates (Number of duplicates/number of duplicates + character). If a duplicate takes a hit, it immediately dissipates. Area of effect spells simply hit the player, and dissipate any duplicates in its AoE. This spell would be incredibly useful. Great for negating melee damage, and deadly individually targeting spells.
I think that this implementation would make the spell too powerful unless it had a long cooldown or some similar way to prevent the spell from acting like a stacking Displacement. It has some merit, but may not have any middle ground where it is both useful and not totally over powered.

Colour Spray is obviously a useful spell, especially at low levels. A cone that puts to sleep, blinds, or dazes, and works even on higher HD opponents? Sign me up.
Any spell tied to HD in DDO is pretty much doomed from the start. I like the spell in PnP, but HD scale up too quickly in DDO for these types of spells to be worthwhile--there are kobolds in level 2 quests that would be almost unaffected by this spell.
Project Image could work by switching the player's vantage to an illusory copy of himself which, while only being able to take one hit, has access to all of his items and powers. Upon gaining the spell, the player gains access to a pseudo feat that allows him to switch control between his normal body and the Image. Whenever his actual body takes damage, the damage indicators, red numbers, groans of pain, screen distortion appears as usual. If manual control is not taken of the projected image, it simply mimics your movement and animations and works as per Mirror Image. There must be a line of sight between your body and Project Image at all times, or the spell terminates within 3 seconds after providing a warning (a translucent line could be used to show the line between the image and your caster).

The other Image spells (Silent, Minor, Major Image) themselves could be used to create insubstantial duplicates of a targeted character or creature which can simply draw aggro. Each time a non-mindless monster successfully damages it, it gets a Will save to realize it's not real, whereupon it ignores the image in favour of real targets. You can also manually pilot the duplicate as per Project Image, but you cannot cast anything from it.
I don't think these have any place in DDO. Projecting yourself in PnP comes with many risks, one of which is rarely truly being certain that your real "self" is safe, which is something we really need not worry about in DDO. Also, the implementation would be wonky, as we'd have to have some way of both seeing our real characters and the projection, in addition to controlling it.
To make Ghost Sound more consistently useful, and upgrade it to a level 1 spell (there are no cantrips in DDO) it could not only be used to attract attention, but also daze opponents in its area of effect for one round on a failed Will save, by creating a booming, illusory sound. Useless against "deaf" flagged opponents.
We already have daze monster don't we? Does anyone us it?

Really? It's handicapped? Well I'll be damned. I guess I'll tell my blaster that he's "handicapped" because he can solo most of Shavarath with sheer damage output.

Ok Asp, would you try to save spell slots on your nuker by swapping in Shadow Evocation?

[Surrealistik]

Was that part of your valid response? Niac's is outdone by Scorching Ray and the Frost Lance, what wizard doesn't have Knock, Web, Resist prepared all the time anyway?

Hypnotic Pattern is mediocre, Invis can be cast just as effectively off of a wand, scroll or consumed in potion form. Halt Undead is only situationally useful, and many of the other spells you mention wouldn't get used at the same time, in the same quest anyway. This was speaking about wizards, not sorcs, who can swap spells as needed.

Being able to sub out Niac's at lower levels prior to a buffed Frost Lance is useful. Invis can be scroll/wand cast but is handy to have prepared, HP is obviously not the best second level spell, but is consistently useful, Halt Undead would be usable without expending another prepared spell. Further, you also have access to multiple useful Conjuration spells of the same level. Web is now Web and Glitterdust as an example.

The fact is, I did respond, and did provide a valid argument, which you seem to have ignored.

Only in your own mind. You were adequately replied to, and this latest "rebuttal" of yours is just as anemic as the last.

The fact is, there are only 2 or 3 nuking spells that are worth keeping around at any given level, so the Evocation version doesn't offer all that much economy, and does so with a fairly substantial downside.

Again, the value of having virtually any damage, range and AoE shape available seems to completely escape you.

On the other hand, the Conjuration version does essentially nothing for wizards, who already tend to have enough available spell slots for whatever they want to do, and can swap spells around if they need something in particular, while it does far too much to negate basically the only penalty sorcs get for their greater raw power. Even at reduced damage, few conjurations we use are thrown for their damage, and many don't even have a save.

Wrong, as per usual. Being able to simultaneously prepare more net utility is clearly useful for Wizards, while Sorcs are subject to not only a reduction in average damage for shadow imitated spells, but also net effectiveness. Apparently you have exhibited a lack of or selective reading comprehension, as disbelieving a Conjuration spell imposes a substantial malus to the chance of non-damage effects to work.

You really want to "prove" how great these would be? Write up a full list of spells known for a sorc now and show how their selections would be impacted by these two spells, and how that both makes them more effective and does not impinge dramatically upon wizard's territory, by also doing the same for a wizard.

Except the real cost to Sorcerers, as repeatedly mentioned, is in having a less effective version of several different spells at a higher SP price tag, and a higher spell slot choice.

[Aspenor]

Not to mention, the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration lines are all subject to spell resistance, they also have dual saves. One will to disbelieve, and the normally allowed save against the normal effect.

For that reason, no, I would not take them to replace my nukes. There is far too much a chance for the spell to fail completely.

PS - Give me gnomes AND the Shadow spell lines and I'd go hog-wild with a wizard, though. Maybe a sorc, even....hmmmm gnome sorc.

[sephiroth1084]

Way to completely ignore my points Surreal. You fail to show why a wizard would need any more spell slots/flexibility, or what sorcs would be preparing in lieu of their current nuking suite.

Currently, they have/need 2 cold spells, 2 fire spells, and 1 acid spell (Cone, Lance, DBF or Swarm and FW, and Acid Fog). What other damage spells are we adding in here? Chain Lightning?

There is no reason to have Halt Undead as a permanent spell slot. Against a lot of undead, the scroll version is just as good. For a wizard, you just drop one of your spells that don't work on undead for that in undead-heavy quests.

Niac's is mediocre, but also doesn't need to be swapped out for anything pressing until it is completely useless--go to House P for Jump if you really need, use a wand for RoE...

Invisibility is a waste of mana in EVERY instance! There is NO reason to ever cast this spell--use a clicky, a wand, a potion or a scroll. If you're sneaking somewhere, the 3 minute duration will usually be long enough, and if you are going to do anything at all that would break the spell, you end up losing TONS of SP recasting it. It is just as effective. Note that Ghoste, probably the character who has most utilized Invis, doesn't ever cast it from SP in any of his videos.

Why mention Hypo-P if it's not very good? Consistently useful? Maybe, but hardly worth preparing. Aside from the irritating graphics, it just doesn't do as much as most of the other spells you could be taking.

So your argument for these spells is to show a bunch of semi-useless or useless spell selections that can be included? How many different spells does a wizard cast in a particular quest for CC? How many more are needed? Why would a sorc give up 4 or 5 full-damage spells that attack the weakest save for the ability to cast those same 4 or 5 spells from one slot for 2 saves, one vs. a better save, and a spell pen. roll?

You mention that the spells afford more utility, but then claim that they come with significant downsides. You berated me for such contradictory statements when I was talking about two different spells and, therefore, not contradicting myself. What's your justification?

[a.out]

Necro'd to tell all those who ask for the reason to add this that it would be *awesome* for bards ... it would give them more options aside from being either buffbots or mediocore melees. I guess it would be a nice synergy w/ spellsingers and to a lesser extend w/ virtuosos with max charisma ( as they could use wiz nukes to do some damage ).