Wizzy King Epic

[WeaselKing]

I was asked by my buddies why dont I report it. I'll give you the same answer I gave them.

This is the Internet. To expend any more energy in to it as they have only brings me to that level. By reporting it and going on about it or creating five threads about it and rebuttal threads blah blah blah .. all it has done is paint a great many individuals from your guild in a very bad light which, considering I was actually defending you people in that thread, may not have been in their best interest.

I still very much like a few ppl from your guild but my blacklist got longer after that ridiculousness.

I dont need a huge and no love has been lost. Know what I mean?

Well then please don't complain about something, if you won't take the necessary steps to fix. There is a squelch list in game too, it is ideal for the person getting harassed who doesn't want to make official reports. I have one guildy whom I routinely squelch (and then eventually unsquelch).

[Atenhotep]

Yup, as I am sure others will soon do it under 30 minutes.

Just to be clear, my first epic run was Saturday. It was way over an hour. Waay waay over. lol. I'm in no rush to shave this time down if I have to risk completion. I mean the mental image is there, the tactics, now just needs practice with my ppl.

Maybe you don't know what imo means, because that is the most important thing in this statement. When the i in imo is one of the devs, let me know.

I don't think it is fair for you to have singled out the part where I say this is my opinion while completely avoiding the reasoning behind it. You actually just zerged right through the statement and missed making a legitimate rebuttal. imo.

Yes, you are supposed to ignore it, that is what the ignore list is for.

Here's the problem.. The longer a lie keeps getting repeated the more it becomes accepted as the truth. I'm pretty annoyed that people from your guild completely fabricated an issue, pinned it to another person (me in this case) and then went on repeating it. And THEN bothered me in game about it. It certainly is the last time I will ever defend those people. And frankly with your guild's reputation I'd think you'd need as many kind words as you could drum up.

In any case this thread has been ruined. Id really like to thank the thread hijacker for proving once again that every thread is a drama thread just waiting to happen.

[Atenhotep]

Also i still don't agree in saying zerging is an exploit. Why? Cause look on the achievement section 2/3 of that section is composed of speed runs which means they zerged and those threads are still open.

I've often blamed the Achievements Forum for all those game nerfs ppl complain about.

Those guys realize the devs do read that forum right?

Why would anyone post in there then get upset about a game nerf later. Know what I mean?

[HeavenlyCloud]

I've often blamed the Achievements Forum for all those game nerfs ppl complain about.

Those guys realize the devs do read that forum right?

Why would anyone post in there then get upset about a game nerf later. Know what I mean?

So you are saying everything that is overpowered is an exploit? :O cause only overpowered stuff is being nerf'd in the ultimate quest to achieve game balance.

[Atenhotep]

Ok, this thread's purpose has been sufficiently derailed that no further good can come of it. That's too bad.

the end.

[HeavenlyCloud]

Ok, this thread's purpose has been sufficiently derailed that no further good can come of it. That's too bad.

the end.

Sorry about that, i was only asking clarification to your claims that zerging was an exploit.

[WeaselKing]

2. Maybe we are not communicating correctly the meaning of the word exploit? I mean Exploit to mean "A Cheat." Do you understand that after doing a quest so many times it no longer presents any challenge you just rush through picking up the loot was probably not how the quest was designed to be played? That is, imo, an exploit.

You are right I zerged this part before.

However, it seems to suggest that just because you are well equipped and experienced, using that equipment and experience is cheating, that is absurd. If it wasn't there would be a maximum level for quests and you wouldn't be allowed to re-enter WW at level 20.

Turbine once tried to have an explicit discussion about exploits:

Exclamation THE LIST, Episode One.™
THE LIST, Episode One.™

As promised, here is a list of situations Turbine considers a violation of the Terms of Service. We will update this list over time, through episodes, to help clarify what how the rules are enforced. If you have any questions about this list, or would like to suggest a particular exploit for clarification please PM a member of the Community Team. Do not debate the rules on the forums, please and thank you. Remember GENERAL discussion of exploits will no longer be taboo subject. However detailing the steps or other significant details of an exploit will continue to be off limits. We will be happy to help when it comes to exploit questions. To be clear though, we will still not allow detailed talk about how to exploit on the forums. No don't do it! Yark! Be sure to PM a question to the Community Team if you must share explicit detail! Please also do not report exploiters on forums. The proper place to report exploiters is in-game using the "?" button.

The following activities are considered to be violations of the Terms of Service:

* Using summoned items or creatures to trigger a game bug
* Purposely using any method that causes monsters or NPCs to become completely unresponsive.
* Bypassing a door, forcefield, barrier or other geometry which causes monsters or quest events on the other side to become unresponsive.
* Purposely causing monsters to become stuck or unresponsive on geometry.
* Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.
* Using any method to repeatedly loot a chest without repeating the quest objectives/content/monster encounters associated with the chest.
* Using any method to loot a chest or accept quest reward with any character who did not complete the related quest objective from start to finish.
* Bypassing a quest timer or flagging mechanic which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed.
* Any method of removing quest-only weapons, soul stones, or items from a quest instance and/or selling them on via the Marketplace or Auction House.
* Communicating details on how to exploit, or indicating quests which may be exploited in public. (Including in the LFM panel. Vague comments on your play style are welcome in the Who Panel or your Character Profile.)

The following activities are NOT considered to be violations, but tactics ("cheesy" or not), that may or may not be "fixed" in the future.

* Corralling a monster in a corner or other area, as long as the monster remains "conscious" and continues to attempt defense and/or escape.
* Using the environment (not a ladder) to climb to another location that does not result in monsters or quest events becoming broken.
* "Perching" on geometry to get a better ranged shot at a monster, as long as the monster remains responsive.
* "The Hero Method" when it does not involve triggering a bug.
* "Bouncing Agro"
* Distracting responsive monsters so a team member can complete another part of the quest without incident.

We hope this list helps to clarify what Turbine considers violations and answers any questions you may have. If you have additional questions or would like clarification on certain activity, please send a PM to the Community Team and it may be answered directly or in the next episode of "The List". Please note that we receive many PMs from users, and it may take time before we can inquire on your PM, and provide an answer.

Nowhere here do they say, "Running past monsters without killing them is an exploit. If they had wanted to say it, they could have, they did not.

[totmacher]

(john madden voice) "in this thread, we have people arguing for the sake of arguing. BOOM" (draws little O around various participants)

[Mhykke]

CHA IS a Primary Stat for FvS. Just as WIS is.

No it's not.

What you people on this board did was then take that statement and twist it into something it wasn't to fabricate more drama.

Gawd, I'm just so sick of the lowbrow drama but I'm also sick of the strawmen so here we go again.

1. CHA and WIS are the Primary Stats for FvS. If you disagre then create a FvS with an 8 CHA. Duh.

Saying that Cha isn't a primary stat doesn't mean that you want to put zero points in it. By primary stat, people usually mean very important stat that you want to max out or at least close to max, probably minimum of 15, but usually 16 or 17.

You do understand there's a difference b/w saying "cha isn't a primary stat for fvs" and saying "you should dump cha on a fvs and put zero points into it", don't you?


5. I never said the FvS should have gotten the tome over the Sorc (please refer to point #2) I merely stated that CHA is a primary stat. Quibble all you like but its the truth. Jeesh ppl.

Just b/c you say it's the truth doesn't make it so.

7. Zerging is an exploit. You want to argue that? Then zerg Epic Wiz King. Post Screen Shots of your 30 min completion time.

First of all, a 30 min. wiz king epic isn't that hard to do. Second of all, what does zerging wiz king epic have to do with proving that zerging is or is not an exploit?

And finally, zerging is by no stretch of the imagination an exploit. What does running a quest quickly have to do with avoiding the intent of the developers?

8. Zerging is an Exploit AND the Dungeon Alert ALSO is a cheap method for Turbine to free up their server lag issues. Both 7 & 8 are true.

If by true, you mean false, then yes.

9. I can zerg you under the table.

Prove it. I'm game.

....

Replies in red.

[Heffty_Smurf]

Flesh bud idk why your trying to rationalize with this guy lol hes bringing me into his post to cause drama lol i had a good laugh at that and at his expense, hes bragging about getting rep lol thats like bragging about finding a dime in the seat cushions lol, and the funny thing is i reped him on that post because i felt bad for making fun of someone with such extremely low capabilities. if you go back and read the thread he really revealed how much of a cool guy he was when he tried to come at me for no reason and then kiss my behind after i had posted lol i think i hit a nerve when i told him to shove his rep because i guess to some of the in game less notables rep is really important.

By the way i would love to see the epic token in your inventory, what i suspect is that your 30 min wizzy king does not involve killing all 3 and getting the token.idk if i would believe a guy who claimed in that thread that his build made him qualified to give the facts. I checked his build vs. my cleric Jokie's build and i felt embarrassed for him. I would barely say i had a good cleric but i know if i was working with the gear and build he has id be awfully embarrassed that people could see it on myddo, let alone have the link in my sig. lol so instead of coming on here and embarrassing him even more im gonna let it slide because he is just too easy a target. and if i were u flesh i wouldnt waste my time debating him, im fairly confident you lost him after a post or 2.

for the record this post was diliberately worded to show that i can take the high road and not call names or come close to violating any forum guidelines as i respect the fine job the people at turbine do and would not want to creat any drama that would irritate them.

[kaelis]

7. Zerging is an exploit. You want to argue that? Then zerg Epic Wiz King. Post Screen Shots of your 30 min completion time.

8. Zerging is an Exploit AND the Dungeon Alert ALSO is a cheap method for Turbine to free up their server lag issues. Both 7 & 8 are true.

9. I can zerg you under the table.

Do you need to be told why zerging is an exploit or can you please use the brain I know you have and figure it out yourself?


Peace.

1.Zerging is not an exploit. Find proof or eat your words, thanks.
2. I can zerg you, and your gimped cleric-hell i'll even do it on my original 28 pointer cleric- under this or any table.
3.My first epic raiyum. 40 minutes, my second(today) not nearly so well. But we sure as hell got close to your "zerg in it 30" bull ****, without trying.
4. Dungeon alerts don't fufill the 'end lag' purpose we were given. Their an implementation is now used to make content last longer to a population that flies through it, just like epic and reincarnation have been added in to make people grind out more and more.
5. When you don't know something, shut up.It'll keep the "trolls" away.

Replies in red.

Mhykke, as always says it all very well.

[Jesen]

Replies in red.

[WeaselKing]

Flesh bud idk why your trying to rationalize with this guy ... and if i were u flesh i wouldnt waste my time debating him, im fairly confident you lost him after a post or 2.

Slow work day, so I got paid to waste my time.

[ddoer]

False.

Zerging is a playstyle that requires skill and thinking to work correctly and is a valid play style - Dungeon alerts were put in in an attempt to get players to 'kill off' mobs instead of leaving them. I can still zerg any dungeon in DDO with or ...

well said. DA actually make it more skill demanding to do zerging.

beak, I am more interested to know your strategies and spells for the epic quests, more than the argument about exploitation. Especially you could complete wiz-king in 40 mins in the first try that is quite impressive. Any chance to share it on another thread?

JUST BECAUSE ZERGING IS NOT USUALLY INTENDED FOR QUESTS DOES NOT MEAN IT IS AN EXPLOIT.

Also i still don't agree in saying zerging is an exploit. Why? Cause look on the achievement section 2/3 of that section is composed of speed runs which means they zerged and those threads are still open.

2. Maybe we are not communicating correctly the meaning of the word exploit? I mean Exploit to mean "A Cheat." Do you understand that after doing a quest so many times it no longer presents any challenge you just rush through picking up the loot was probably not how the quest was designed to be played? That is, imo, an exploit.

who is the writer of DDO dictionary who can clearly define the meaning of zerging and exploiting? is it Atenhotep? WeaselKing? or can I? or someone who played since beta can have a say?

• it's a bit philosophical to say so but I doubt if the meaning of zerging that Atenhotep refers to is exactly the same as the other people. Please give a clear definition of zerging and agree on it before continue to argument. Quote from professortangent.org:

  Imaging walking through the woods and seeing a squirrel on an oak tree. The squirrel also sees you, and immediately scurries to the opposite side of the tree. You circle the tree trying to catch another glimpse of the squirrel, but the squirrel is also circling the tree to stay on the opposite side. You are going around the tree, the squirrel is also going around the tree, but are you going around the squirrel?
  
  This answer doesn't depend on logic so much as on careful definitions. You're walking in a circle, and the tree and squirrel are always inside the circle, but you and the squirrel would always be facing each other if the tree weren't in the way. The word "around" could be understood either way, and the exact meaning determines the answer to the question. If you understand "around" to mean that if the tree weren't there, you would see all sides of the squirrel while walking "around", the answer is different than if you understand "around" to mean that the squirrel is always inside the circle you're making with your footprints.

  at this point, we have to respect Beak's definition if he will make one.
  
• We know Turbine has the final say of what is exploit. Instead of arguing in an unrelated thread, could anyone just please PM a member of the Community Team? please ask exactly "is zerging a kind of exploit" and let us know the answer to stop the argument.
• Turbine discourage people from "getting too much aggro" (remarks: it's up to you to define zerging in this way) by introducing the DA. Assume there is a quest that people could zerge with tumbling under red alert to loot a +4 tomb (yes, a tomb! not just a tome), and the guy share his method in video and everyone else follows. This cause tremendous server loading and the F2P players can't login. Turbine will be ****ed off and will first shutdown the quest immediately. And then will probably introduce stronger measures to stop you from zerging under red alert. is it an exploit?
• Turbine has a terms of service as WeaselKing has quoted. is "violations of the Terms of Service" = exploit? is the list of "violations of the Terms of Service" bullets collectively exhaustive? i.e. the list cover every exploiting conditions?
• Atenhotep said XXX, WeaselKing said YYY, Beak said zerging is a playing style (and he is an expert in this area). None of them is Turbine's employee, I suppose. We know they are not stating a fact but just expressing their opinions. If something has no definite answer, could A and B and W be right/wrong at the same time? or there is no right or wrong when expressing an idea on a vague topic. e.g. is the OP's wizking an accomplishment/achievement?

if you look argument, please go to a more meaningful thread of What color is the Shavarath stone of battle (Running with the Devils)? Red or Pink

So what do I think?
when Turbine explicitly say or act on stopping certain behavior, but anyone still keep doing that, it is an exploitation. For example, Turbine has locked a drama thread, and deleted another drama thread, and someone still bring up the topic and keep flaming each others or derailing his own/others thread by talking about the drama, it is exploiting. if Turbine does not take any action, the Blah will punish you.

[Ganak]

I zerged in my pants :P

[WeaselKing]

I zerged in my pants :P

Was it right after you bit into a grape?

[Mystyque]

I am beginning to think that this Zerging issues is just a way to cover up the fact that you lack to talent to accomplish the zerg.

Lets take Wiz king for example if its your favorite quest you love so much. If you take 1.5 hours to complete it with all the optionals and chests.

I take 45 minutes or less for same result. Who is the more efficient and talented player. I can do two quests getting same end result as your one quest.

So if you say zerging is cheating which if it was alot probably more than 70 percent of server players would be banned at some point or another. Then report it. I would love for a DM to tell you to shove it. They would probably reply to you with something more appropriate knowing the DM's and their role playing.

As far the the dungeon alert well that is also put in place like someone else in form not enough time to quote say to make people grind it out more.

Plus if you can red skull a quest and still accomplish everything in less time then you are by far a great player that has skills and talent. To which there are tons on Argo just not you apparently because remember kids Zerging is an Exploit and by Exploit he means cheating In his opinion that is.

[ddoer]

Plus if you can red skull a quest and still accomplish everything in less time then you are by far a great player that has skills and talent. To which there are tons on Argo just not you apparently because remember kids Zerging is an Exploit and by Exploit he means cheating In his opinion that is.

the same word could be interpreted differently by different people. do you think the guy who has invented The Exploiter think ranger/monk splash is cheating?

[WeaselKing]

The Exploiter think ranger/monk splash is cheating?

No, but it almost should be.

[Mystyque]

Personally I have a Ranger Monk splash it is definetly not your common splash as my fellow guildies will tell you he is not the best so I screwed something up. No he is not all bad but needs alot of work.

If the DM's thought it was an exploit they would have made it so you can not successfully cross class the two. Which I believe they did with mixing Barbarians and Paladins I mean could you imagine a Barbarian with Paladin smites and saves. wait they made sure you couldnt do that. They could make rangers and different allignment so you cant cross class the ranger monk rogue build.

So no its not an exploit and you still need a good grasp of knowledge to even perfect that build cause surely I have not. I have seen others like me who are not so hot builds and i have seen some who blow me out of the water. So generally no matter what a character build comes back to the player and the knowledge of the player.