Fighter 8/Rogue7/Wiz 5

[hawkender]

I need some help in determining how awful this build would be. I just started DDO a week or so ago and am learning a lot yet.

Why I like it:
Level 5 Wiz has all the neat spells that I enjoyed the most from D&D. Fireball, Haste, Displacement, etc.
Rogue 7 for backstab abilities
Fighter to pick up feats and hp

My highest class level is 8, is this really bad?

I think I would make a Drow dex build. Is there a reason I shouldnt go crazy with dex to rely on dex AC and weapon finase for atk?


Thanks for any help

[Aranticus]

I need some help in determining how awful this build would be. I just started DDO a week or so ago and am learning a lot yet.

Why I like it:
Level 5 Wiz has all the neat spells that I enjoyed the most from D&D. Fireball, Haste, Displacement, etc.
Rogue 7 for backstab abilities
Fighter to pick up feats and hp

My highest class level is 8, is this really bad?

I think I would make a Drow dex build. Is there a reason I shouldnt go crazy with dex to rely on dex AC and weapon finase for atk?


Thanks for any help

if you want a ftr/rog/wiz i would recommend 13rog/2ftr/5wiz

as a 8ftr/7rog/wiz5, you hp will not be that great and hence you will be a support melee. if this is the role you are going to adopt, it means you will not be having as much attention of the mobs, boosting up rog levels will help in sneak attack plus getting 2 very valuable feats that will help with survival ie slippery mind and improved evasion

ps: you can forget about using the wiz levels to nuke. use it mainly for buffing

[DragavonBeta]

I think you will be very dissapointed if you create this character and level it up beyond ca lvl 12-14.

Your fireball will be next to useless at lvl 20, your buffs will have shorter duration than what you get on items you can make in the Shroud raid.

Tho at low levels it could have the potential to be a fun build, for a player that knows DDO well.

But you do not, as a player with a week's experience. I would advice you to play a pure classed character until you know more about DDO.

[WolfSpirit]

Another "Wouldn't this be Neat" build!
I swear, I'm going to add "Entercarefully into multiclassing before doing so" to my sig.
But I will give +1 Rep for at least coming to the forums before trying anything.
Plan ANY Multiclass character out from start to finish and carefully weigh the gains before dedicating to it. Your buffs and Hastes will be of VERY short duration and your melee will be very low dps and rogue skills medocre... But there are perhaps better char builders out there that could somehow come up with a multiclass to do what your looking for and make it not so...
Well, make it better perhaps...
Good Luck!

[Thrudh]

Another "Wouldn't this be Neat" build!
I swear, I'm going to add "Entercarefully into multiclassing before doing so" to my sig.
But I will give +1 Rep for at least coming to the forums before trying anything.
Plan ANY Multiclass character out from start to finish and carefully weigh the gains before dedicating to it. Your buffs and Hastes will be of VERY short duration and your melee will be very low dps and rogue skills medocre... But there are perhaps better char builders out there that could somehow come up with a multiclass to do what your looking for and make it not so...
Well, make it better perhaps...
Good Luck!

I agree this is a difficult build, but I don't agree with some of your comments...

5 levels of wizard allows some decent buffs... You get two meta-magic feats for free, so you'll have Extend... 10 minute Shield, Jump, Blur, Exp Retreat are all good... Haste and Displacement will only last 1 minute each, but what else are you going to spend your SP on? You'll have enough to keep these going all the time. Basically, you can consider yourself perma-hasted and perma-displaced (perma-displaced is VERY nice)

Rogue skills will not be mediocre with 7 levels of rogue...

It's a doable build... but it's gear dependent (You'll need lots of gear to raise your hit points, before you get a radiance II rapier, soloing will be difficult... etc.)

And don't go dex-based...

Also, leveling to 20 will be very difficult... Sure it looks "okay" at 20 with 5 levels of wizard, lots of sneak attack damage, etc... but at level 10, what will you be? 4/3/3? Not so good...


Deep multi-classing like this is tough to pull off... A "splash" of another class usually gives better benefits... I like the 13/5/2 rogue/wizard/fighter suggestion... It's better to have at least ONE primary class.... then to split evenly among 3...

[krud]

self cast buffs are nice, however many are right in that the 5 wiz is going to be tough to pull off. Unless you go 5 wiz very early, you won't be getting the buffs you want until level 10 or later. If you decide to get 5wiz early, then you'll have your buffs, but you won't be able to fight or do anything else very well. At high levels you will only be buffing yourself with those 5 wiz levels. Expeditious retreat, shield (if twf), blur, haste and displacement will be your most useful ones.

What are your options to achieve the same thing?

UMD - your rogue levels should give you enough umd to use wands of blur, expeditous retreat, or shield. I have a rogue who does this, and it works well, but finding high level wands of these isn't always easy or cheap (especially shield).

clickies - ugghh. For people accustomed to endless high level raiding, acquiring a bunch of shroud clickies may seem easy, but for most others, especially newbs, it is not that easy, or even that appealing. Not to mention the annoyance factor with constantly swapping gear in and out, or forgetting to.

pots - haste is available in pots, is uninterruptable, and lasts 30sec vs 1min. Costs plat, but at higher levels this shouldn't be a problem.

elf displacement dragonmark - if you have the extra feats to spare this is an ok option. This buff can be extended, and it's duration is based on character level, so will continually increase in duration as you level. It is also uninterruptable. If you have another casting class besides wizard (e.g. 6ranger) you can still pick up extend. Thrud's 13/5/2 could work, or any combo of 6rgr/2+x rog/12-x ftr dragonmarked elf could also accomplish much of what you are trying to achieve.

[hawkender]

Thanks everyone for your constructive thoughts. You have helped put into words and supplied an argument for suspicions I already had.

As for it being another "wouldn't this be neat build," even its total ****, but I still enjoy it, isn't that the point? =D If players don't toy with different builds they won't learn what works or what doesn't work and why...one might think this behavior should be encouraged?

As has been said though, I don't know how things will turn out in the late game and I appreciate the insight concerning higher levels!

Dragavon- could you clue me in on what a new player would need to know to make this build fun at lower levels please?

Tho at low levels it could have the potential to be a fun build, for a player that knows DDO well.
.

[DragavonBeta]

Dragavon- could you clue me in on what a new player would need to know to make this build fun at lower levels please?

Probably not the answer you want, but to make a build like this work you need lots of DDO experience. You need to know how to overcome this builds weak spots, and how to exploit its strenghts. And belive me, the weak spots are far more numerous than the strenghts.

DDO is a game that lets you create totally fubar'ed characters. I once met a sorc in fullplate with a greatsword and no mana. When I asked about the build the player had dumped charisma to 8, and did not understand why he had no mana to cast spells......

And with a build like this it is very very easy to make mistakes early on that only manifest themselves at higher levels. A friend of mine has a vision of a WF battlearcane character. He capped 4 characters at lvl 16, with various mixes of sorc/pally(rogue) and wizard/fighter(rogue), and was not able to create a character he was happy with. He has played DDO since launch, and has loads of experience.

Your idea for a character sounds nice on paper, but it will be weak in just about every area on high levels.

If I where you, I would start a drow rogue with silly high intelligence (20), take 2 rogue levels at start and then go wizard the rest of the way.

Then with that experience I would consider adding fighter levels to the mix.

[Gnorbert]

My advice would be to start a warforged rogue with the following stats

Str: 16
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 6
Cha: 6

Take two levels of rogue, then take a few levels of Wiz, then see where you are. As a warforged you will have self-healing from wands and spells right from the beginning.

If you are playing towards a fun character then consider simply 13 rogue / 7 wizard using two weapon fighting.

Getting to 7 wiz will give you access to Stoneskin, Wall of Fire, repair critical damage spells. Also it will give you more duration on your haste and displacement spells.

If you would rather a two handed fighter and really want to be more durable then perhaps a 7 rogue / 7 wiz / 6 fighter would be good for you. This gives you access to Kensei I enahncements through the fighter levels. Also, in this scenario you can drop your Dex by a couple points and bump your other stats as you see fit.


No, none of these will be MAX anything as far as DPS or durability, they should prove very entertaining to play.

[krud]

Quite a few succesful permdeathers made WF battle arcane types. You could check if they have any posted in the pd forum.

[Therigar]

You know, I'm generally all for odd builds if there is some way to make them really useable in a group. See the thread on the Sith fighter/sorcerer build.

But, I have to say that the 8/7/5 multiclass just looks bad to me.

As a wizard you'll have neat spells but they won't be very useful in L20 content. Twelve levels in low BAB classes won't hurt you so much -- your end BAB will be the same as a L20 rogue. But, DDO does not reward DEX as an AC boost to the degree that many PnP games do. So going DEX with weapon finesse will not give you that great an AC -- acceptable but nothing really special.

Without adequate STR to increase damage you will fall far behind a STR build. The low rogue levels means you won't benefit fully from backstab -- the main damage boost for rogues.

Having said all that, you'd really need to work out the whole build including stats to see what the end result is like. My concern is that you'll encounter the same sort of unreasoned bias that seems to accompany any non-standard build. And when I, who normally looks for the silver lining in any build, scratch my head at the class split I think you may have real trouble getting the build past others in game.

Now my caveat. If you have a good guild group or regular gaming group then I'd go ahead and give it a whirl. BAB isn't horrid and DEX with weapon finesse means you'll hit. DEX also means you'll probably take the TWF line. Those are all good things.

But, I see the following probable issues:

1) not enough Fighter levels for Kensai II and not enough Rogue levels for Acrobat or Assassin -- both represent significant decreases in damage potential or group utility.
2) without seeing your planned stats I still get the feel that you'll have too little STR -- usually when someone posts about a DEX oriented build this is the case and too little STR greatly affects damage.
3) not enough Rogue levels to overcome the loss of STR damage.

[kingfisher]

the build you want is einarmal's awesomobot 4000 but remember the new disadvantages of lower BAB will require having several divine power clickies for when you have aggro or when facing high ac mobs. in my opinion the best place to put these is in the goggle slot, a couple three 5x dp clicks will set you straight.

[hawkender]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. I have played a lot of MMO's and single player games (D&D type included), as well as having a lot of exp with the PnP games. So, I have a lot of base knowledge, but that knowledge doesn't always translate well to new platforms and other games.

For now I started a Drow Rogue that will only be a rog/wiz (I wouldn't mind another level if it really helps the build but I need to go back and toy around with the char generators).
My current stats are 14,18,10,16,10,10 My thoughts were to go dex, but so far I am discouraged from going that route. Would you guys mind helping me out some more by giving a brief summary of why a dex ac build won't be so hot?

I was thinking with a lot of dex would allow me to use light to no armor, keep my atk higher with wep finesse, I could use combat expertise if needed, maybe even power atk for diff situations? And yes, TWF.

Again, thanks for all the feedback.

[Arianrhod]

Well...one wizard level, or keeping UMD maxed on your rogue, would allow access to Fireball wands (which would be about as effective as any fireball you're going to cast with 5 wizard levels). Elf dragonmarks would give Displacement with caster level equal to character level (so it would actually last long enough to be useful). Seems like substituting rogue levels and keeping UMD maxed, and taking elf dragonmarks would give the character much the same capabilities, without taking any wizard levels at all.

[Therigar]

For now I started a Drow Rogue that will only be a rog/wiz (I wouldn't mind another level if it really helps the build but I need to go back and toy around with the char generators).
My current stats are 14,18,10,16,10,10 My thoughts were to go dex, but so far I am discouraged from going that route. Would you guys mind helping me out some more by giving a brief summary of why a dex ac build won't be so hot?

Are you talking about a L1 rogue that will be 18 or 19 levels of wizard or a L1 rogue that will be 18 or 19 levels of rogue splashing in a wizard level or two?

In the first case you should take 2 rogue levels for evasion and probably rework the DEX and INT numbers.

In the second you should drop any thought of wizard and invest in UMD as you'll then have easy access to both divine and arcane wands and scrolls as desired.

A better rogue multiclass is rogue 18/monk 1/fighter 1 or rogue 19/monk 1. If you plan to rely on light armor then no need to pursue DEX very strongly as you'll quickly outstrip the possible DEX bonus. +5 mithral breastplate gives 10 armor and 5 DEX bonus. DEX 20 is sufficient. You'll probably want to end at 22 with a 17 base and the Drow and class enhancements. The monk multiclass lets you switch to armored bracers and combine maximum DEX bonus with any WIS bonus for a higher net AC.

If you don't want to take a monk multiclass (general reason -- everyone else is doing it) then rogue 19/fighter 1 is better than rogue 19/wizard 1. The extra feat to spend on the TWF feat line will be more useful.

The last option is to go without armor and really push the DEX envelop. An 18 DEX leads potentially to 38 DEX. That is a potential +14 to AC. Note that this is 1 AC lower than going with +5 mithral breastplate. Exceptional DEX bonuses could raise this to the same +15.

What is gained by having so much DEX? Well, great reflex saves. After that it is a bit less clear.

If the same effort were put into STR you could end on 28 STR. That is enough to not need weapon finesse, gives additional damage and does not affect your AC at all. By dropping DEX to 15 and eating a +2 tome to get 17 base for ITWF and GTWF you could put 4 build points into STR From 16 STR you could end on 30 STR with 5 stat increases, +3 tome and +6 item. On top of that you'd still have 1 build point left over for extra CON.

The importance of CON is addressed in a different thread.

[hawkender]

How accessible are wands like fireball, shield, and displacement (and others)? I don't mind using them and see the advantage of being able to use them without having to put classes into wizard, but I liked the idea of the class owning the ability, "self buffed" kind of mentality...and I like the idea of not having to count coin every time I launch a spell....

Also, how do I get these tomes? I am sure there is plenty of info on them, I'll go look that up also...

It seems as far as wizards go I am being pulled back to the obvious conclusion of keeping the class as pure as possible and just focus on being a wiz, maybe with a splash of X.

I've enjoyed fighter/rogues, so maybe I will make two character and get all the things I want that way...

Thanks again.....and I have a sneaking suspicion I should find that thread on CON...

[DragavonBeta]

This thread has got me thinking a little, and I have an idea that a 13 rogue / 7 wiz or sorc build could be some fun

I have knocked up a rogue / sorc plan first, as I like rogues with high charisma because a lot of rogue skills are charisma based.

A wizard build would have other strenghts tho, with 2 free metamagic feats and lvl 4 spells. I will probably make a plan for that too

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Chaotic Good Human Male
(13 Rogue \ 7 Sorcerer)
Hit Points: 258
Spell Points: 575
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 17
Dexterity 16 27
Constitution 14 18
Intelligence 12 14
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 14 20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 37
Bluff 2 5
Concentration 4 22
Diplomacy 2 5
Disable Device 5 25
Haggle 2 5
Heal -1 -1
Hide 7 20
Intimidate 2 5
Jump 2 8
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 7 24
Open Lock 7 14
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 2
Search 5 25
Spot 3 22
Swim 2 3
Tumble 7 37
Use Magic Device 6 28

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Force of Personality
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 5 (Sorcerer)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Sorcerer)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Sorcerer)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Sorcerer)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery I

[DragavonBeta]

And here is the wizard

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Chaotic Good Human Male
(13 Rogue \ 7 Wizard)
Hit Points: 258
Spell Points: 359
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 14 17
Dexterity 16 27
Constitution 14 18
Intelligence 14 18
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 12 14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 7 37
Bluff 1 2
Concentration 4 22
Diplomacy 1 2
Disable Device 6 27
Haggle 5 7
Heal -1 -1
Hide 7 28
Intimidate 1 2
Jump 2 8
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 7 29
Open Lock 7 15
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 5
Search 6 27
Spot 3 22
Swim 2 3
Tumble 7 37
Use Magic Device 5 25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 5 (Wizard)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse


Level 7 (Wizard)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Balance II
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery II

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My first and main char is currently Rgr10/Rog4/Wiz5.
2954 favor...he's done just fine and he's been fun all the way.

Very good at traps.
good at ranged.
decent at melee. (more than decent recently)

I use my Wiz spells for buffs only. Solves a lot of problems.

Some people can get Shroud items to substitute for what I have. But it takes a lot of grinding.

I won't say it's a super build, but it is fun.

I want to lvl up a similar build.
Drow high SR
Rgr6/Rog7/Wiz7

Anyway, you should definately do your research and plan your build, with an understanding of the limitations DDO puts on it.

But if you can realistically get what you want out of it, it's fun IMO.

[Arianrhod]

How accessible are wands like fireball, shield, and displacement (and others)? .

Fireball - common as dirt
Shield - common, but most are caster level 1 (very short duration)
Displacement - don't think there are any wands of this

As for others:
Blur - common
Resist Elements - common
Detect Secret Doors - common
Charm Person - common
Melf's Acid Arrow - common
Scorching Ray - common
Many level 1 buffs - common
Magic Missile - common
Cure/Repair spells - common
Various cures for status ailments - common
Stoneskin - common but expensive

Spells that would be handy but aren't available on wands:
Firewall (there are scrolls, but they tend to be rare/pricey)
Haste (can get potions of this)
Displacement (elves can spend 2 feats for Dragonmark of this)
Any spell over 4th level