Discussion for Off-hand Items

[Wudwaen]

I realize casting classes are not supposed to be in the front line of combat. However, the front line of combat often moves to the caster. If the caster is using a primary and off-hand weapon, then they suffer the penalties of dual-wielding. Other games have focus/off-hand items that provide bonuses without counting as a weapon. I would like to see either a new item base or tags to change this.

If we used tags, they would be either *Ritual* or *Ceremonial* and appear as a modifier in the name. IE. Ritual Greater Nihil Dagger of Minor Spell Penetration II. The item would then be set as a non-weapon off-hand item. It would do no damage, and it would not cause the activation of the TWF penalties (or actions) for the caster using something in the primary hand. Items for which the *Ritual* tag would be appropriate would be daggers, scepters, and bucklers. The bucklers would provide no penalties for arcane spell casting and would provide no bonus to AC (except possibly a bonus from some magical property). *Ceremonial* items would include all forms of shields, daggers, and scepters only for Cleric, Favored Soul, Paladin, etc.

What I would prefer is a full new line of items to use as foci. These would carry modifiers to all forms of magic, but would be skinned according to the respective culture they support. There would be specific foci for each of the deities (Arawai, Aureon, Balinor, Boldrei, Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, Kol Korran, Olladra, Onatar, the Devourer, the Fury, the Keeper, the Mockery, the Shadow, the Traveller, Vol, Vulkoor, and the Dragon Below) as well as cultural Icons (the Silver Flame, the Sovereign Host, the Path of Light, the Undying Court, the Lord of Blades).

If the latter option is more popular, then the symbol would appear in the manner of a buckler, whose special ability would not be prevented for being off-hand (for example *Devotion*, *Erosion*, which have to be activated but normally only activate if in the primary hand) as it is when one carries say two scepters at once.

What do you all think?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I think we are lucky to be able to carry two items. As per D&D rules many spells should require us to have an EMPTY hand.

With that in mind, the system is fine as it is.

[hydra_ex]

I still fail to see why a caster would hit anything with their scepters.

[Wudwaen]

I still fail to see why a caster would hit anything with their scepters.

Well, first and foremost, real scepters are glorified maces/clubs - and always were. Second, Casters are supposed to have rods, staves, and wands. Some of those rods did in fact double as weapons in the original DM's guide. DDO apparently short circuited the system by using scepters. Further, this is in part transition from Paper to Screen. As a paper side referee, I can make and change rules instantly, an MMO cannot. And trust me, if you were to get thwacked in the jaw with 3 pounds of gold and diamond covered mithral pipe, it would hurt.

Further, the targeting in DDO sucks so horribly that wizards will often if not always end up fighting hand to hand. It is not possible to maintain a target. The game does not lock-in targets. If you tell an NPC to do something your targeting ceases to work unless you unequipe your weapons first and re-equip after having them heal or buff or whatever. If you do get a target you will not move towards it, stay in range, or even maintain it - under any circumstances. If the target is at a higher elevation then no matter what weapon or spell you can almost guarantee a grounded shot - especially out of doors. (No arc trajectory exists for thrown or fired weapons.) The LoS limitations are too strict to take into account things the character would which the player cannot. Acquiring a target does not result in maintaining and following the target for any kind of combat (melee or ranged). If you cast a spell at something that is PB then it goes into the ceiling and does not hit anything. Then there are those times when you do not want to waste 10 to 25 SPs to cast on something that has 1 HP left and will save 2/3rds of the time anyway. So, the end result is casters must also be prepared for melee.

[Entwhistle]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=203496

[Wudwaen]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=203496

That doesn't effect what I am talking about. I am talking about being able to maintain in one hand a focus item and in the other a weapon, while not being forced into dual wielding. But thank you for the link.

[BLAKROC]

I still fail to see why a caster would hit anything with their scepters.

bad dog bad dog..................

[Nyvn]

Well, first and foremost, real scepters are glorified maces/clubs - and always were. Second, Casters are supposed to have rods, staves, and wands. Some of those rods did in fact double as weapons in the original DM's guide. DDO apparently short circuited the system by using scepters. Further, this is in part transition from Paper to Screen. As a paper side referee, I can make and change rules instantly, an MMO cannot. And trust me, if you were to get thwacked in the jaw with 3 pounds of gold and diamond covered mithral pipe, it would hurt.

Further, the targeting in DDO sucks so horribly that wizards will often if not always end up fighting hand to hand. It is not possible to maintain a target. The game does not lock-in targets. If you tell an NPC to do something your targeting ceases to work unless you unequipe your weapons first and re-equip after having them heal or buff or whatever. If you do get a target you will not move towards it, stay in range, or even maintain it - under any circumstances. If the target is at a higher elevation then no matter what weapon or spell you can almost guarantee a grounded shot - especially out of doors. (No arc trajectory exists for thrown or fired weapons.) The LoS limitations are too strict to take into account things the character would which the player cannot. Acquiring a target does not result in maintaining and following the target for any kind of combat (melee or ranged). If you cast a spell at something that is PB then it goes into the ceiling and does not hit anything. Then there are those times when you do not want to waste 10 to 25 SPs to cast on something that has 1 HP left and will save 2/3rds of the time anyway. So, the end result is casters must also be prepared for melee.

When using the soft target system, you can hard lock onto your current ttarget by pressing tab.

[soulaeon]

That doesn't effect what I am talking about. I am talking about being able to maintain in one hand a focus item and in the other a weapon, while not being forced into dual wielding. But thank you for the link.

Are you saying we should be able to attack with just the Main Hand, without the other doing anything? I can agree to this.
But further, casters do a LOT of things they shouldnt, like SUNDER and TRIP and Intimidate! The use of dual weapons and certain feats should be restricted to class, or require a feat be allocated to their use.

[Letrii]

Are you saying we should be able to attack with just the Main Hand, without the other doing anything? I can agree to this.
But further, casters do a LOT of things they shouldnt, like SUNDER and TRIP and Intimidate! The use of dual weapons and certain feats should be restricted to class, or require a feat be allocated to their use.

Why should they be restricted from dual wielding, they have melee penalties as for everyone else.

[Wudwaen]

Are you saying we should be able to attack with just the Main Hand, without the other doing anything? I can agree to this.
But further, casters do a LOT of things they shouldnt, like SUNDER and TRIP and Intimidate! The use of dual weapons and certain feats should be restricted to class, or require a feat be allocated to their use.

It would be more appropriate for casters to effect Sunder, Trip, etc. through spells. They already have spells that effectively intimidate. The difficulty I see is in the potential for intimidate to be used as a function of RP in game. A caster that takes intimidate should be able to use it just as effectively on an NPC during interrogation, coercion, etc. as would anyone else ... After all, Gandalf was very intimidating when Samwise was terrified of being turned into something *unnatural*. Another option would be a dual wielding setting, but that could be cumbersome for players who regularly switch weapon sets in combat.

When using the soft target system, you can hard lock onto your current ttarget by pressing tab.

I have played games where this works. DDO is Not one of them. The Tab key does not hard lock on anything. Nor does anything else. IF you are hardlocked onto a target you will stay in range of that target. You will be able to spend your time executing skills and strategies instead of having to spend ALL of your time maneuvering your character. DDO has effectively eradicated the functional use of skills by not taking into consideration the real time effect on constant maneuvering. Skills and effects already have recharge rates and times, so the additional burn of manipulating the cursor while supposedly switching (with ctrl+wheel - something not every mouse has) is cumbersome and detracts from playability.

[Calebro]

(with ctrl+wheel - something not every mouse has) is cumbersome and detracts from playability.

Playing with a mouse instead of a ton of mapped keys?
Expand your bar off the main to get more of them on-screen.
Use right click to hard target.

[Wudwaen]

Playing with a mouse instead of a ton of mapped keys?
Expand your bar off the main to get more of them on-screen.
Use right click to hard target.

If you have a hard lock, a target lock, you will stay On That Target. DDO does not have this ability. Merely holding a picture in a little window does not make it a target lock. If the cursor/avatar/toon does not stay withing range, move to maintain melee capacity or ranged target acquisition, then there is No Target Lock.

[Calebro]

If you have a hard lock, a target lock, you will stay On That Target. DDO does not have this ability. Merely holding a picture in a little window does not make it a target lock. If the cursor/avatar/toon does not stay withing range, move to maintain melee capacity or ranged target acquisition, then there is No Target Lock.

So make sure you stay within range.
This isn't an issue with the targeting system, it's an issue with your positioning.
Reposition yourself.
Problem solved.

[Calebro]

It is not possible to maintain a target. The game does not lock-in targets.

Yes it is, and yes it does.

If you tell an NPC to do something your targeting ceases to work unless you unequipe your weapons first and re-equip after having them heal or buff or whatever.

This is just untrue. You'll have to re-target, but there's no need to unequip anything.

If you do get a target you will not move towards it, stay in range, or even maintain it - under any circumstances.

No, it won't. The game will not move your character for you. D&D, and by extension DDO, is a strategy based game. How much strategy would it take a player to lock onto a target and never have to do anything other than spam attacks and skills? Not much.
Furthermore, if you were to stand toe to toe with any mob worth worrying about and using this tactic, I can tell you the results right now. The mob wins. Every time. They have more HP and they hit harder. This is why strategy becomes important.
I'm going to assume you don't play solo, and I'm going to assume you wouldn't even *think* of running a quest without a healer, or you would know this.

Acquiring a target does not result in maintaining and following the target for any kind of combat (melee or ranged).

No, it doesn't.... and it shouldn't. YOU have to move YOUR OWN toon around the battlefield. The game isn't going to do it for you, and if it did it would be utterly boring.