The Numbers Dont Lie

[Lyria]

OK here is the point your missing.

lets say EVERYONE does what i suggest.On a 1 year time scale.

Turbine makes lets say 2 million(just a number off the top of my head)

BUT they would make 8 million IN vip subscriptions in the same 1 year time frame.

Lets say in that year, they release 4 mods(ha ha ya right), and they are priced point wise as mods are now.

And on those 4 mods lets say they make another 2 million(HIGH figure)

They have now made 4 Million on everyone buying points and the new mods.

But they have STILL LOST 4 million in possible revenue from VIP accounts.

And in following years, if they lose that UP FRONT 2 million, so now there up to losing 6 million a year. THAT is also considering they put out 4 mods a year. WHICH THEY DONT.

Are you seeing were it is POSSIBLE for them to really lose money on this?

Is my Point clear now? The Point is this, On the front end yes, it could create a huge revenue jump for turbine, but on the back end, in the long run, they could lose a TON of money! I never said they WILL lose it, just that it is POSSIBLE.

Except these numbers are so woefully inaccurate it completely blows your "point" out of the water.

If they had enough subscribers to make 8 million in one year off subs (that's around 45,000 subs, btw), and all those people bought into this "just buy all the content, you'll save money!" thing, and dropped $200 for everything?

Turbine would make almost nine million.

The $200 you spend to buy all the content, character slots, etc, is the same as it would cost a VIP to sub to the game for about 18 months. In that 18 months, if they come out with (let's say) 3 new adventure packs, each of which are around 500-800 points, that's another $30-50 you're spending. And the VIPs get that content for free. Let's say they add a new race (half orcs? half-elves?), or a new class (druids?). You're going to have to pay to unlock that, too. Etc, etc, etc.

Yes, in the LONG run (as in, around 3+ years) it's cheaper to go free to play and just buy everything. However, if Turbine starts churning out a lot more content (3-4 adventure packs per year, let's say), that time frame starts extending further.

For me, $15/month is a MUCH better price point than $200+ all at once.

[sephiroth1084]

Haven't read beyond the first half a page, but...uh...

You say that it would cost ~$200 to unlock everything and go F2P.
A subscription is $15/month. 200 divided by 15 is a little over 13, or a year and a month.
How would Turbine be losing anything if all the subscribers decided to just pay the $200? That would be a year's advance from everyone. With that much additional revenue, they could probably take on some more staff and churn out some more new content, which would mean that everyone would have to shell out more dough.

Conversely, you could be a VIP for long enough to earn the free TP to do the same.

[Revord]

Yes, its $200 to buy it...less if you get the points on sale. That of course doesn't factor in the 500pts per month we get as VIP since we can use those for stuff like TP rods, extra char slots, reincarnations, or other things we would buy. That's a value of another $5/month. So, figuring the long time players are on a $10/month sub, we get $5 in free points, it would take 3 1/2 YEARS before I'd be better off going F2P... And that's not counting new releases. If they release 2 new packs per year at an average cost of say 600 points thats about 4 years to the break even point. Doesn't make much sense to go F2P really

Which is why I subscribe. It makes way more sense to me to subscribe, get the free points every month, and go where ever, whenever I choose. The very first month I subscribed, I had access to every single adventure pack, whether my character was high enough level or not. In fact, the very minute that my card was debited ( btw, I use my debit card, not credit so this money is NOT financed) I had everything I needed to raise cain on stormreach. Now, the real question is this: Do you LOVE this game? If not, then by all means DO NOT go VIP. I have a co-worker who started playing, got distracted with some other games that he bought, and hasnt been on in a couple of weeks. He is a perfect example of the importance of f2p. He can come back any time and begin where he left off. I on the other hand am on 5 out of 7 days a week for 2-3 hours at a time. I am a perfect example of the importance of VIP. I get my moneys worth out of the game. At this point, for me, VIP is a true value. Not for my co-worker. I love this game, even with its flaws, and drawbacks. This is why Im VIP

[Minor_Threat]

Its this little thing called COMMON SENSE, and i refuse to believe that NO ONE has it anymore.

Oh noes! More players who don't share your special brand of common sense!

[Newtons_Apple]

Ok if someone has already posted this im sorry. I went through and did the math, To have 10 slots,all races,all classes and all content, and the shared bank would take 15303 Turbine Points. 3300 Points cost 38.99 you have to buy 3300 points times 5 to have enough points to cover everything, that gives you 16500 points. Total cost for enough points to cover all the above, 194.95, and you own it for as long as the game is up, as a F2P player. As i see it, the ONLY reasons to be a VIP, are to lift the chat ristrictions and to remove the limit on the amount of plat your toon can have on him.After doing the math i am inclined to wonder why VIP well isnt very VIP at all.My question is, i guess What exactly is turbine thinking? That the players wont catch on?

Before you decide to flame me about this,I challenge you to log into the game, open the store, write down the numbers and do the math for yourself. I personally dont know if i will become VIP again after doing the math for myself.

You're forgetting that there are those of us who got in on the special payment plan when it was offered so many moons ago. We pay $60/ 6 months...

[Ereshkigal]

Ok really serious question. If Hardware store A sells a hammer for 25.00 and hardware store B sells the EXACT same hammer, Of the EXACT same Quality, for 10.00 which one would you buy?

well,

really... hammers and hardware stores aside...

I am staying VIP for a few reasons.

1. I like the idea of being at the front of the log-in queue. Perhaps it's just smoke and mirrors but I like it none the less.

2. There are many times that I really am glad I can skip straight to the Hard difficulty rather than having to do Normal first. You all know those quests you really don't want to do other than to get the favor.

3. And this is the biggest reason. I don't mind paying a price for something that gives me enjoyment. I'll certainly buy points on top of my subscription fee as well for things like reincarnation and tomes, but the subscription is my way of supporting a product that I want to stick around and the fee is pretty cheap when I break it down by the number of hours I play.

[Inejiro]

the subscription is my way of supporting a product that I want to stick around

This is the first thing that came to mind for me. There are people that would most likely subscribe, regardless of Free To Play deals, because they want to lend their support to a game they enjoy.

There are a few other perks to VIP, such as queue priority, customer service, etc. also, but i think most either want to support their game, or find a monthly fee easier to afford than a larger lump sum, or a combination of the two.

Myself, I returned for the Free option, but I would probably sub if i could afford it... however i'm currently flat broke. I just got a job offer and start training for the next few days, so that may change soon, we'll see.

[Minor_Threat]

I just got a job offer and start training for the next few days, so that may change soon, we'll see.

Good luck, I was in the same spot a few months back.

[Hendrik]

well,

really... hammers and hardware stores aside...

I am staying VIP for a few reasons.

1. I like the idea of being at the front of the log-in queue. Perhaps it's just smoke and mirrors but I like it none the less.

2. There are many times that I really am glad I can skip straight to the Hard difficulty rather than having to do Normal first. You all know those quests you really don't want to do other than to get the favor.

3. And this is the biggest reason. I don't mind paying a price for something that gives me enjoyment. I'll certainly buy points on top of my subscription fee as well for things like reincarnation and tomes, but the subscription is my way of supporting a product that I want to stick around and the fee is pretty cheap when I break it down by the number of hours I play.

QFT!!!!

The enjoyment the I receive from DDO is well worth the $.02 an hour I pay for being a VIP.

[SquelchHU]

Ok if someone has already posted this im sorry. I went through and did the math, To have 10 slots,all races,all classes and all content, and the shared bank would take 15303 Turbine Points. 3300 Points cost 38.99 you have to buy 3300 points times 5 to have enough points to cover everything, that gives you 16500 points. Total cost for enough points to cover all the above, 194.95, and you own it for as long as the game is up, as a F2P player. As i see it, the ONLY reasons to be a VIP, are to lift the chat ristrictions and to remove the limit on the amount of plat your toon can have on him.After doing the math i am inclined to wonder why VIP well isnt very VIP at all.My question is, i guess What exactly is turbine thinking? That the players wont catch on?

Before you decide to flame me about this,I challenge you to log into the game, open the store, write down the numbers and do the math for yourself. I personally dont know if i will become VIP again after doing the math for myself.

195 dollars to buy everything. 195 dollars of subscribing will get you 13 months if you buy them one at a time, more if you buy in bulk.

Do you really think this game will occupy you for more than one year? Chances are it won't.

[BlackSteel]

some of us pay less than 15 a month. at 10 a pop, I'd have to plan on playing for a little over a year and a half from now, without even factoring in any new updates or use of consumables (whereas as a VIP I dont mind buying the occasional thing in the store for luxury use (500pt allowance))

given updates and the like: If I'm still playing DDO in over two more years then somethings wrong. I love the game, but given how long I've already played it, somethings bound to look interesting in another 2.



Also, Hellgate london had a lifetime sub model; which I was very tempted to grab, but thankfully didnt. As they went belly up, and the servers closed long before the life sub value was reached.

[Cyr]

The numbers quoted by the OP are missing some details. First, many many VIPS sub at $10 a month and they get 500 TP a month for that also (or are supposed to ). Second, doing the Premium option is actually MUCH cheaper then quoted also if you are at least somewhat smart about your purchases. The $50 = 5000 TP deal has been around twice so far so 1/month it looks like might be their rotation for it. Content can be bought on sale. Many adventure packs have been 35% off all of them have been at least 25% off that I am aware of. Most account options have been on sale for 25% off also. That equates to 3/4 the total TP quoted or less as the more realistic number. Along with a reduction in the $/TP ratio. These add up drastically. Also, you can certainly make the argument that new content will increase those costs as it will if you buy everything. But if you only buy adventure packs and avoid the silly 'perk' benefits such as 32 point builds (which if you play enough to make $100 of TP worthwhile anyways you've already unlocked) it is very unlikely that even under a drastically increased production schedule Turbine will come out with much more then 6-7 packs/year. Of these packs at most 4 will be 'top' content with lots of adventures and a raid (meaning the $7+ range based upon previous pricing).

[Grintor]

The method of paying for the game is dependent on your preference and your income situation. If you don't want to be held back by free to play, you can purchase access via TP or VIP. both have their pros and cons, but ultimately it works out like this; Pay for key leveling/loot adventure packs now, buy everything up-front, or Pay Monthly for all content and build up TP every month, buy adventure packs and other things along the way. Without buying things on specials, and not paying for the game yearly, roughly Thirty-two months would need to pass before you could buy everything from VIP allotted TP, or $480. Sounds like a bit much, but ultimately you're buying the game over two and a half years, while having all the access you could want from the game. Effectively it's like financing a car for 3 years, but you also get free upgrades to your car, and you also get an allowance every month to help buy the car. Pretty fine deal for those who aren't worried over costs, and it lets Turbine stay in business. Choose a method, accept your decision, don't worry so much; enjoy the game, no matter how you pay for it. Also note that I didn't add in extra content for the simple fact that these points are still valid regardless of new content, you'll still be paying for more content either way, so just pick the method that works best for you. I personally think that it's nice to have multiple ways of paying for the game as it allows the illusion of choice, which in theory makes people happy when they think they have a choice.

[Inejiro]

Good luck, I was in the same spot a few months back.

Thanks.

[Robi3.0]

OK here is the point your missing.

lets say EVERYONE does what i suggest.On a 1 year time scale.

Turbine makes lets say 2 million(just a number off the top of my head)

BUT they would make 8 million IN vip subscriptions in the same 1 year time frame.

Lets say in that year, they release 4 mods(ha ha ya right), and they are priced point wise as mods are now.

And on those 4 mods lets say they make another 2 million(HIGH figure)

They have now made 4 Million on everyone buying points and the new mods.

But they have STILL LOST 4 million in possible revenue from VIP accounts.

And in following years, if they lose that UP FRONT 2 million, so now there up to losing 6 million a year. THAT is also considering they put out 4 mods a year. WHICH THEY DONT.

Are you seeing were it is POSSIBLE for them to really lose money on this?

Is my Point clear now? The Point is this, On the front end yes, it could create a huge revenue jump for turbine, but on the back end, in the long run, they could lose a TON of money! I never said they WILL lose it, just that it is POSSIBLE.

Facts:
cost of owning the game out right= around 227.88
cost for buying a sub for a year at the highest rate=179.88

Now please tell me how in your hypothetical situation Turbine will only make 2 mill from every player buying the game out right, BUT would some how manage to make more money off of subs in your 1 year time frame if everyone stayed a VIP?

You are also not taking into account sells of vanity and convenience items at are a staple of every F2p game.

In short your math is bad and you don't have all the information. Don't get all chicken little yet.

P.S. Subscriptions since relaunch have increased 40% so apparently a lot of people see value in the perks of being VIP that can't be priced.

As good as this all may sound. I'm not entirely certain that turbine would shoot themselves in the foot that badly. I'm sure if push came to shove, once having aquired money for all the F2P players to buy everything, they may just go back to P2P, and you would have nothing to show for that money. Then who would be the dumb ones? There is nothing keeping them at F2P.

Except that Turbine can never take DDO back to P2P only without facing a huge amount of legal consequences. If DDO reverted back to P2P every player that had spent money on content that they where told they would own for the life of the game would have a nice fraud case against Turbine. I am sure there is a law firm somewhere that would be willing to pick up the case if this happens.

In the situation you suggest the only "dumb ones" would be Turbine.


Edit: **** now I am mostly just repeating what everyone else said earlier

[Uska]

Ok for that 194 I can play for 19 months and for 5.00 more I can play 1 more month(I pay 9.99 a month) I would have all new content for those 20 months as well as not need to buy sigils and 10k pts on top of that to use on things like reincarnation or more slots already at 12 but what the heck if they go on sale buy another. think VIP is a good thing for me but your mileage may vary.