18 Wizard/2 Rogue and skill starved

[Horkenstein]

Need some advice, if people don't mind helping out.

I am working up a Wizard/Rogue as part of a three man group that's largely unfamiliar with the dungeons. I'm pretty new, so I won't have access to large quantities of cash and a stack of inherited gear. With the roles I'm taking on, I know the Wizard would need level capped concentration, and the rogue would need open lock, disable device, search, and spot for the dungeoneering (I'm forgoing the rogue's other two functions).

Using the <insert rogue skill> guides in the compendium, the impression I get is that I'll just be barely scraping by on hitting the "everything else" DCs for the dungeoneering skills only by putting all my skill points into those skills and ignoring Concentration altogether.

I'll start with 18 intelligence. Dex and Wisdom will be around 10. Constitution will be 14.

Any suggestions on how I can get a decent standing concentration without having to rely on the loot RNG and not destroy my rogue skills? The only work around I can think of is possibly taking Quicken as a metamagic bonus feat early and learning to suck up the extra cost, along with losing 12 enhancement points in an effort to mitigate it.

I love turning monsters into drooling idiots and burning them too much to go back to hacking away with a sword, but I equally love defeating traps and getting into locked chests, and my friends like me doing that, too.

[Runehammer]

I might suggest only putting .5 points into OL per lvl since you can try over till you get it without adverse effects like blowing the trap and spot is only useful if you don't know where the traps are, once you learn the location spots not needed anymore exept for spoting hidden mob's. You might want to look into UMD also it can be quite handy especialy in a dedicated group, you never know when you might have to raise the cleric

[Arianrhod]

Well, as a wizard, you'll probably have Quicken spell eventually (if you don't already), as it's one of the more useful choices available as a Wizard bonus feat. Since Quicken makes your spells uninterruptible, it becomes much easier to live without Concentration (though, of course, it does cost extra spellpoints, so might not want to keep it on all the time).

[Phidius]

It's up to you if you want to spend AP to make Quicken a bit cheaper, but don't abandon Concentration because you have Quicken.

Quicken does nothing for scrolls.

[Phidius]

Without using any tomes, you can keep Concentration at max ranks, and still get enough points to do all traps and locks.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard)

...

Level 1 (Rogue) 
Skill: Balance (+4) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Disable Device (+4) 
Skill: Haggle (+3) 
Skill: Hide (+4) 
Skill: Jump (+4) 
Skill: Listen (+4) 
Skill: Move Silently (+4) 
Skill: Open Lock (+4) 
Skill: Search (+4) 
Skill: Spot (+4) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4) 
 
Level 2 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
 
Level 3 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
 
Level 4 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+0.5) 
 
Level 5 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+0.5) 
 
Level 6 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+0.5) 
 
Level 7 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+0.5) 
 
Level 8 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 9 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 10 (Rogue) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Open Lock (+6) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+5) 
 
Level 11 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+2) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+0.5) 
 
Level 12 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 13 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 14 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 15 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 16 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1.5) 
 
Level 17 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 18 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 19 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1) 
 
Level 20 (Wizard) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Disable Device (+1) 
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5) 
Skill: Search (+1) 
Skill: Spot (+1)

You could skimp even more on Open Lock, and use the Barbarian for your Spot skill if you wanted to keep up another skill (like UMD). Using +1, +2, and +3 tomes at their minimum level would certainly help things along.

[Horkenstein]

Another skill, noooo! This is what horrid wilting must feel like. :P

Honestly, though, I'd love to have UMD, but I need Spot. None of us know the dungeons well enough to get by without it, and the other two aren't playing classes that'll pull it off very well.

Quicken was already planned in for those situations where I absolutely have to drop an AoE mind affecting spell immediately, but the lack of concentration was forcing me to consider it as more of an always on thing. The cost in spell and enhancement points kind of sours that approach.

Phidius, you rock. Thank you very much for the skill layout. I'll put it on my sheet and reroll tomorrow with the new patch. I can guarantee the +1 tome by level 3, of course. Not so sure about +2s and +3s, yet...

[Phidius]

Another skill, noooo! This is what horrid wilting must feel like. :P

Honestly, though, I'd love to have UMD, but I need Spot. None of us know the dungeons well enough to get by without it, and the other two aren't playing classes that'll pull it off very well.

Quicken was already planned in for those situations where I absolutely have to drop an AoE mind affecting spell immediately, but the lack of concentration was forcing me to consider it as more of an always on thing. The cost in spell and enhancement points kind of sours that approach.

Phidius, you rock. Thank you very much for the skill layout. I'll put it on my sheet and reroll tomorrow with the new patch. I can guarantee the +1 tome by level 3, of course. Not so sure about +2s and +3s, yet...

Spot is used for several things.

1. Secret Doors: Use the 1st level spell "Detect Secret Doors" until you have a perma-True Seeing item (or scroll the True Seeing)
2. Traps: Use your uber reflex save (max Int and the Insightful Reflexes feat) to find most of them Experience will find the rest.
3. Hidden enemies: Unless you are doing a lot of sneaking (hard to do in a group that isn't focused on it - the weakest link and all). Not to worry - you'll find them eventually.

You "only" need to free up 23 ranks in other skills to fit UMD in, and getting +1/+2 Int tomes will make it even easier.

Drop Disable Device by 2, Spot by 6, Open Lock by 8 (only put points in at creation), and Concentration by 3 to get full ranks in UMD.

Disable Device: +3 from Ventilated Bracers, +7 from +5 Thieves Tools will be enough... many times, Precious doesn't even bother switching to the Bracers, let alone the +15 Disable goggles.

Spot: You'll find traps/hidden mobs with 17 ranks.

Open Lock: You'll be able to open most locks in the game with the 2nd level spell Knock - Precious Knocked the Desecrated Temple of Vol's locked door with the spell on elite.

Concentration: A +1 Int tome at level 3 results in 4 extra skill points over your toon's life (extra skill point at 4 instead of 8, etc...) - use 'em here.

It's been said before, but it bears repeating. Get the absolute best gear you can at lower levels (< 10). The gear is what will make the difference for you.

[Judayclan]

Slightly off topic but if you were to splash a level of sorcerer and made this build 17 wizard, 2 rogue, 1 sorc. Would you receive double spell points from items equipped that say double spell points for sorcerers and favored souls. Also would there a be a downside I'm missing by going 17 wizard vs 18 wizard ?

[Phidius]

Slightly off topic but if you were to splash a level of sorcerer and made this build 17 wizard, 2 rogue, 1 sorc. Would you receive double spell points from items equipped that say double spell points for sorcerers and favored souls. Also would there a be a downside I'm missing by going 17 wizard vs 18 wizard ?

You would get prorated spell points, not double.

17 Wiz versus 18 wiz would be 1 less point of Spell Penetration to your wizard spells (and far less for your Sorc spells), and one fewer level 7, 8, and 9 spells. In exchange, you'd get a bit more SP and 2 more level 1 spells.

I've known wizards who accidentally multiclassed into sorcs while drunk... that's really the only excuse that can be made.

Now, splashing a level of Barbarian or Fighter MIGHT be worth it - it all depends on whether you believe Turbine will actually put out a Wizard PrE that's worth anything.

[shores11]

If you carry the knock spell you can get away with not having as high a open locks but I still invest in open locks when I can on my wizard/rogue. So I am not as worried about open locks as I am about spot, this is my challenge to keep up as well. Disable and search will be just fine for me as an intellegent based character.

I do waht to invest in UMD a bit just to see how high I can get it, hopefully to 24 or so with skills and items.

[Samiusbot]

Slightly off topic but if you were to splash a level of sorcerer and made this build 17 wizard, 2 rogue, 1 sorc. Would you receive double spell points from items equipped that say double spell points for sorcerers and favored souls. Also would there a be a downside I'm missing by going 17 wizard vs 18 wizard ?

You do not get double spell points from items, you get up to double spell points from items different things.

This extra % scales with the number of sorc levels you have.

Two, the more levels away from your main class the weaker your main class becomes. And you have to used other skills to shore up those short comings.

[spifflove]

+6 skills per level
2 umd
2 search
2 disable

then at level 4 eat +1 tome

concentration

level 12

make up points into concentration

last rogue level:
make up OL, balance.

[Judayclan]

Thanks for the quick replies and clearing that up for me. Appreciate it.

[Lozareth]

Going drow makes it a bit easier since you can start with 20 int for an extra skill point a level. Lets you keep UMD, DD, and Search maxed and Concentration nigh maxed (low by 2 until the 2nd rogue level) from the start.

[spaarhawk]

True, but Drow would not allow the self-healing that a WF with repair spell would, do you feel the trade-off is worth it?

Serious question BTW, I'm having trouble deciding myself. 20 INT is phenominal at Level 1.... but how would I heal myself effectively?

[malthusian01]

Do not rely on Knock to get every lock. It stopped working for me around level 15. 10-15 was rolling reeeally high which I suck at.



Off topic, but are you Spifflove the guy that made the Code Monkey and other random videos?

[Phidius]

True, but Drow would not allow the self-healing that a WF with repair spell would, do you feel the trade-off is worth it?

Serious question BTW, I'm having trouble deciding myself. 20 INT is phenominal at Level 1.... but how would I heal myself effectively?

I had a drow wiz/rog that I deliberately kept at level 9 to assist friends in getting through the 8-11 hump a year or so back. At that level, using UMD for Cure Serious wands was expensive, but doable.

At higher levels, though, UMDing a Heal Scroll is insufficient for my tastes because ...

1. Quicken doesn't affect scrolls, and
2. Scrolls just don't hit as hard as spells, and
3. SP regeneration doesn't give you more scrolls.

IMHO self-healing > +2 Int.