Please Add Minimum Party Size To Quest Pages

[jsaving]

When entering a quest, it would be very helpful to know up-front the minimum number of party members needed to complete it. By this I don't mean a subjective gauge of how "tough" a quest will be, but rather, whether the designers of the quest chose to include elements like simultaneously flipped levers that can't be done without a certain number of party members. A fair number of new DDO entrants have complained about not being told in advance that a quest they've spent an hour plowing through actually can't be done with the current party size, and I don't see why a game that's supposedly trying to become more small/solo-friendly can't add this information to the screen you see when entering a quest.

Granted, quests that "need" a certain number of party members can sometimes be done with less if you get lucky with web spells (I'm thinking of the burning heart tomb here) or have the proper speed/jump boosts (say, the Pit). So in this case a "minimum" party size wouldn't necessarily reflect what an experienced DDO gamer can accomplish -- but then again, that kind of gamer isn't going to be reading the quest entry window anyway.

So that's my suggestion: a minimum party size field on the quest entry screen.

[Arianrhod]

I could go for that; just a little note in the quest journal saying "4 bodies needed" or 2X25STR, 2X20WIS +1. Of course, then you might start getting requests to include optionals (Butcher's Path: 18 STR, 18 INT, Find Secret Doors & Open Locks recommended), and a "no spoilers" toggle for people who want to find out for themselves....

However, I'd rather have it on the quest journal than the quest entry screen. Don't want people locked out of soloing/duoing these quests with creative methods, hirelings, etc.

[Zenako]

The only low level quests with mulitple party member requirements have those occur very early on so not much time 'wasted". The Necro one is almost the first thing you need to accomplish. The part in Delara's two can be done with a single hireling easily. Rest for the Restless can be handled with a simple recall and reenter.

The quests with more bodies being routinely needed beyond that are mostly higher level ones or raids, and again in those quests the need occurs pretty early in the quests.

[Borror0]

The part in Delara's two can be done with a single hireling easily.

...if you brought an hireling because you can see the future.

Rest for the Restless can be handled with a simple recall and reenter.

...if you want to lose XP for reentry.

The quests with more bodies being routinely needed beyond that are mostly higher level ones

I don't see how that diminishes the importance of the OP's request.

[Pwesiela]

All regular quests are designed for a party of 4.

[Arianrhod]

All regular quests are designed for a party of 4.

....

Which isn't very useful information to the duo who have just done the last 10 quests together with no issues, and suddenly run into one of these "you must have more bodies" quests :P

[Zenako]

I don't see how that diminishes the importance of the OP's request.

Ok but what is the answer. The OP seeminly was looking for a hard and fast "YOU NEED X TO COMPLETE THIS QUEST" and for almost all quests there simple is no number that is required. There are ways to work around almost all of those limits as has been shown time and time again.

Do you "NEED" 6 players for Von 5? One for each rune and each target? Do you NEED 5 players for Fleshmakers. Or does having that many just make something a little easier?

Where do you draw the line?

How many do you NEED for the PIT? Since it can be soloed, but there are also valves to turn in Furnace 3 that otherwise are a bit challenging? 2 or 3 or 4?

As for the Hireling, you can pick up one in the Store WHENEVER you want for short money (TP) if all you need is a lever flipper. No forethought required.

[Khafar]

Where do you draw the line?

At the minimum party requirement. Specify it as a minimum number of player characters and a minimum number of others (which can either be players or hirelings). This is all about telling people that you need one, two, three, or four simply to finish the core objectives, doing things like pulling levers once a party member has passed a gate, standing on buttons simultaneously, etc.

How many do you NEED for the PIT? Since it can be soloed, but there are also valves to turn in Furnace 3 that otherwise are a bit challenging? 2 or 3 or 4?

If it can be soloed, then the answer is "1 Player" or "Soloable". If it requires another player, it would be "2 Players". If a player and a hireling (or player), then "1 Player + 1 Other".

Khafar

[GeneralDiomedes]

...if you brought an hireling because you can see the future.

Turbine Store hurts this argument ..

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Can't see how this would be a bad thing...

[Lyria]

...if you brought an hireling because you can see the future.

Or, you know, you could plan ahead and bring things you might think you'd need. Having a hireling in your pack is like bringing any other tool as a soloist. Healing pots, wands, scrolls, etc. Not the devs' fault if the player refuses to plan for contingencies.

...if you want to lose XP for reentry.

Or you could could just reset and start over, since that particular spot isn't too far into the quest. Or you could use a DD scroll, if you have the UMD for it.

I don't see how that diminishes the importance of the OP's request.

I'm not opposed to quests indicating the "minimum people needed", but going to the point of "minimum <stat> needed", "lockpicker needed", etc is dumbing things down way too much imo. May as well just start telling people where all the secret doors and hidden stuff is at that point.

[Angelus_dead]

So that's my suggestion: a minimum party size field on the quest entry screen.

Ok, they did add information on the number of players suggested. But it is on the quest log, not the entry window, and more importantly, they did not firmly distinguish between "real" needs for that number of player characters, and the quest simply having some moderately difficult combats.

Xorian Cipher should be a 4, because to get below that requires some unintended tricks. But Dream of Insanity has no real need for more than 1 character.

[Borror0]

Yeah, but it doesn't change what the dev's view as the baseline for scaling to effect.

Of course but the addition of dungeon Scaling suggest that each quest can be completed by a player playing solo.

When that is not the case, warning players of that fact is the least thing to do so they do not waste their time in that quest.

Turbine Store hurts this argument ..

I know but I think that gold hireling make a poor counterargument since it requires RWM to solve the problem. You're welcomed to disagree.

Can't see how this would be a bad thing...

Of course not but that's not going to stop people from arguing against the OP.?

Well, that's if they counterarguments even attempt to address the OP's position which is not always the case...

[jsaving]

Ok, they did add information on the number of players suggested. But it is on the quest log, not the entry window, and more importantly, they did not firmly distinguish between "real" needs for that number of player characters, and the quest simply having some moderately difficult combats.

That's the real point here. If a quest is simply more difficult than usual for its level, it's still possible for a skillful small-man group or solo player to see it through to completion. But if a quest requires you to flip a couple of levers at once, or stand on a couple of pressure plates at once, then it may be preordained from the moment you try to short-man or solo a quest that you cannot complete it, no matter how skilled the player(s) may be. And that's the kind of thing that I think ought to be mentioned prominently, either in the quest log or (preferably) on the entry window above where you choose a difficulty level.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Turbine introduce a mechanism where you're not *allowed* to enter a quest if your party is below the "minimum" number of people. If you're run through the Pit twenty times and watched every conceivable YouTube video on how to solo Furnace 3, maybe you can do it -- but the minimum number of players for the Pit still needs to be set at 2 rather than 1 so the guy doing the Pit for the first time is given fair warning that he cannot succeed if he tries to solo it, even if he's a 20th level character. And if you're running through the Tomb of the Burning Heart with enough cash to buy Gold Seal hirelings as needed to stand on pressure points, maybe you can solo that one too -- but the minimum number of players for Burning Heart still needs to be set at 4 rather than 1 so the guy doing this quest for the first time knows he cannot succeed without more warm bodies in the party, even if he's a 20th level character. Contrast these two examples with Proof is in the Poison, a quest that's obviously much tougher than its level would suggest but is nevertheless possible to solo if you're sufficiently high-level when you enter.

[shores11]

When entering a quest, it would be very helpful to know up-front the minimum number of party members needed to complete it. By this I don't mean a subjective gauge of how "tough" a quest will be, but rather, whether the designers of the quest chose to include elements like simultaneously flipped levers that can't be done without a certain number of party members. A fair number of new DDO entrants have complained about not being told in advance that a quest they've spent an hour plowing through actually can't be done with the current party size, and I don't see why a game that's supposedly trying to become more small/solo-friendly can't add this information to the screen you see when entering a quest.

Granted, quests that "need" a certain number of party members can sometimes be done with less if you get lucky with web spells (I'm thinking of the burning heart tomb here) or have the proper speed/jump boosts (say, the Pit). So in this case a "minimum" party size wouldn't necessarily reflect what an experienced DDO gamer can accomplish -- but then again, that kind of gamer isn't going to be reading the quest entry window anyway.

So that's my suggestion: a minimum party size field on the quest entry screen.

First of all this game DDO is not trying to become more small/solo-friendly. I agree they are trying to add more solo dungeons to the game but if it does not state that it is solo you should assume it is not solo'able. Some quests yes without the solo tag are solo'able but it is not intended to be.

I can only see the next request "please add to the entry page what classes we need to have in the quest", maybe a rogue if their are traps, or a ranger if there are enemies on a high ledge or a caster if ther is an area where spell casting is preferred.

Seriously I disagree with this big time part of the enjoyment of the quest is to discover and overcome.

[Khafar]

First of all this game DDO is not trying to become more small/solo-friendly.

Of course it is. If it weren't, they wouldn't have added Solo options to dungeons, then moved to auto-scaling for all dungeons, added Hirelings, gold contract Hirelings, etc. I'll bet that's not the last of it either -- they're expanding outside the group-required niche they were in since launch in order to attract and retain more players, and those new players will be asking for more of this treatment. It's inevitable.

if it does not state that it is solo you should assume it is not solo'able

If (as a lot of the vets here are stating) 90% of the game's quests are actually soloable now, then it seems to be a good idea to spell it out for people on the 10% which aren't. By default, the reasonable assumption will be that it is. Besides, Turbine said that "Solo" designation was essentially getting obsoleted for new content - they're relying on auto-scaling to provide that, and we may not see any new dungeons with a separate "Solo" option.

Seriously I disagree with this big time part of the enjoyment of the quest is to discover and overcome.

Depends. I didn't mind finding out that I needed 3 other players or hirelings for "The Burning Heart", because it came early in the adventure and I'd only wasted maybe 5 minutes before getting to the pressure plates that required coordinated action. No biggie - I made the adjustment and ran it fine 10 minutes later. However, if I'd discovered that only at the very end of a 2-hour adventure, it would have been majorly annoying, not "enjoyable". I usually don't have 2 hours all in one block to play, so this discovery could easily mean I have to wait an entire week or more before I could even try it again.

A simple line on the quest description (or even just in the Compendium) would give me the information I need to have a shot at success.

Khafar