Please Add Minimum Party Size To Quest Pages

[jsaving]

I think there's a sensible middle ground to be found here.

If a group is too small to complete the main quest, then the consequences are significant: they cannot earn favor and will not receive the end-of-quest reward. Faced with that prospect, most such groups would prefer not to enter in the first place, and they should be given a warning to that effect rather than discovering after an hour or two of gameplay that Turbine deliberately designed the adventure to be inaccessible for a group of their size.

On the other hand, if the group simply lacks the appropriate stats or spells to complete an optional objective, they can still earn favor as well as the requisite end-of-quest reward. Faced with that prospect, most such groups would prefer to enter even knowing they'll miss out on a bit of experience and perhaps a chest or two.

So I'm not sure it's necessary to warn groups that they'll lose out on a 500XP optional objective if they can't activate a strength rune, for example. But we can and should warn 1-man and 2-man groups that certain quests simply aren't designed to be beatable by them, especially at a time when Turbine is trying as hard as it can to make DDO more solo- and small-group friendly.

[HeavenlyCloud]

Recommended Group 4 or more players. Maybe ask to make it more visible or something like that.

Edit: Just checked Delera's Quest Journal and well it does say 3 or more players.

[Arianrhod]

Recommended Group 4 or more players. Maybe ask to make it more visible or something like that.

Edit: Just checked Delera's Quest Journal and well it does say 3 or more players.

But when ALL the quests say that, it's not really useful information, as some are designed to be uncompletable without a certain number of bodies, and most aren't.

[shores11]

When entering a quest, it would be very helpful to know up-front the minimum number of party members needed to complete it. By this I don't mean a subjective gauge of how "tough" a quest will be, but rather, whether the designers of the quest chose to include elements like simultaneously flipped levers that can't be done without a certain number of party members. A fair number of new DDO entrants have complained about not being told in advance that a quest they've spent an hour plowing through actually can't be done with the current party size, and I don't see why a game that's supposedly trying to become more small/solo-friendly can't add this information to the screen you see when entering a quest.

Granted, quests that "need" a certain number of party members can sometimes be done with less if you get lucky with web spells (I'm thinking of the burning heart tomb here) or have the proper speed/jump boosts (say, the Pit). So in this case a "minimum" party size wouldn't necessarily reflect what an experienced DDO gamer can accomplish -- but then again, that kind of gamer isn't going to be reading the quest entry window anyway.

So that's my suggestion: a minimum party size field on the quest entry screen.

First of all this game DDO is not trying to become more small/solo-friendly. I agree they are trying to add more solo dungeons to the game but if it does not state that it is solo you should assume it is not solo'able. Some quests yes without the solo tag are solo'able but it is not intended to be.

I can only see the next request "please add to the entry page what classes we need to have in the quest", maybe a rogue if their are traps, or a ranger if there are enemies on a high ledge or a caster if ther is an area where spell casting is preferred.

Seriously I disagree with this big time part of the enjoyment of the quest is to discover and overcome.

[HeavenlyCloud]

But when ALL the quests say that, it's not really useful information

So you only want certain quests to have that?

as some are designed to be uncompletable without a certain number of bodies, and most aren't.

Like Xorian Cypher where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group: 5 people)

Maybe Tomb of the (Something) Heart where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group 4 People)

Maybe what you are looking for is Xorian Cypher "Recommended Group: Well you definitely need 2 people and be able to cast 1 pet each one to keep advancing but sorry for the spoiler. Firewall works great so if you can get someone with it do it. Get people with 22 intelligence, charisma and wisdom. Oh i forgot bring a rogue cause there is at least 6 traps.

Also i apologize if this sounds well aggressive or taunting, but the information is there just because the reaver says 12 players suggested and i solo it doesn't mean all the information needs to be discarded right away.

[Borror0]

Well, the thing is, the Pit can apparently be soloed, but only by someone with the right combination of Jump skill & twitch skills. It is designed to be done with at least 2 - 1 to turn the valve, another to be shot into the air.

Obviously, such estimates should also assume average players/characters.

If the obstacle can be overcome by a specific kind of build by using an unintended part of the quest's design or by two players, the line should be traced at two because it's unreasonable to assume that most soloers will be built to solo it.

Like Xorian Cypher where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group: 5 people)

Maybe Tomb of the (Something) Heart where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group 4 People)

But, Blah, there is a difference between recommended group size and minimum group size. Obviously, many of those quests can be attempted under the number of players listed. As a result, someone will completely disregard that information when it comes to determining whether he should attempt that quest or not.

[Khafar]

First of all this game DDO is not trying to become more small/solo-friendly.

Of course it is. If it weren't, they wouldn't have added Solo options to dungeons, then moved to auto-scaling for all dungeons, added Hirelings, gold contract Hirelings, etc. I'll bet that's not the last of it either -- they're expanding outside the group-required niche they were in since launch in order to attract and retain more players, and those new players will be asking for more of this treatment. It's inevitable.

if it does not state that it is solo you should assume it is not solo'able

If (as a lot of the vets here are stating) 90% of the game's quests are actually soloable now, then it seems to be a good idea to spell it out for people on the 10% which aren't. By default, the reasonable assumption will be that it is. Besides, Turbine said that "Solo" designation was essentially getting obsoleted for new content - they're relying on auto-scaling to provide that, and we may not see any new dungeons with a separate "Solo" option.

Seriously I disagree with this big time part of the enjoyment of the quest is to discover and overcome.

Depends. I didn't mind finding out that I needed 3 other players or hirelings for "The Burning Heart", because it came early in the adventure and I'd only wasted maybe 5 minutes before getting to the pressure plates that required coordinated action. No biggie - I made the adjustment and ran it fine 10 minutes later. However, if I'd discovered that only at the very end of a 2-hour adventure, it would have been majorly annoying, not "enjoyable". I usually don't have 2 hours all in one block to play, so this discovery could easily mean I have to wait an entire week or more before I could even try it again.

A simple line on the quest description (or even just in the Compendium) would give me the information I need to have a shot at success.

Khafar

[HeavenlyCloud]

But, Blah, there is a difference between recommended group size and minimum group size. Obviously, many of those quests can be attempted under the number of players listed. As a result, someone will completely disregard that information when it comes to determining whether he should attempt that quest or not.

Fair enough, you are right i didn't really consider the wording.

I just think that if something is recommended for 4-12 players i won't go with anything lower than what is said unless i got previous knowledge of the quest, in a static group of 1-3 players or i want to explore something to learn it, especially when it is written in all the quests giving you a more or less idea of what you need.

[Arianrhod]

So you only want certain quests to have that?



Like Xorian Cypher where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group: 5 people)

Maybe Tomb of the (Something) Heart where you need "4" people to keep advancing? (Recommended Group 4 People)

Maybe what you are looking for is Xorian Cypher "Recommended Group: Well you definitely need 2 people and be able to cast 1 pet each one to keep advancing but sorry for the spoiler. Firewall works great so if you can get someone with it do it. Get people with 22 intelligence, charisma and wisdom. Oh i forgot bring a rogue cause there is at least 6 traps.

Also i apologize if this sounds well aggressive or taunting, but the information is there just because the reaver says 12 players suggested and i solo it doesn't mean all the information needs to be discarded right away.

The "information" is nearly identical for every quest. All the Catacombs quests list as their recommended group either 2 or more players or 3 or more players, yet ther's no mechanic in any of them that requires more than one body to complete. "Information" that doesn't distinguish between what some people might be comfortable with and what most people will need isn't really information. It's just static.

[HeavenlyCloud]

The "information" is nearly identical for every quest. All the Catacombs quests list as their recommended group either 2 or more players or 3 or more players, yet ther's no mechanic in any of them that requires more than one body to complete. "Information" that doesn't distinguish between what some people might be comfortable with and what most people will need isn't really information. It's just static.

Hard to not be identical when parties only allow 1-6 party members. I guess what i'm just arguing is that people just ignores the recommended setting for the quest, and then they complain when they are soloing that they need another one with them to complete.

But like Borror0 pointed out Minimum is not the same as recommended so you are right.

Also i guess that's just the type of gamer i am, getting as much information as i can before/while doing something.

[Angelus_dead]

All the Catacombs quests list as their recommended group either 2 or more players or 3 or more players, yet ther's no mechanic in any of them that requires more than one body to complete.

Catacombs has a special encounter where you must pull levers while under attack from an unkillable monster. That is the kind of special mechanic that makes multiple players part of the intended approach.

Yes, you certainly could use Sprint Boost or Summon Monster to get past it, but there are also ways an especially prepared player could get through many areas designed for multiple participants.

[Arianrhod]

Another possibility:

Give quests that require multiple things to be done simultaneously a special label (like some of the harder quests got recently - Extreme Challenge). Nothing that gives too much away, just sets them apart from those that don't have these exacting requirements. Maybe something like "Team Coordination quest - 4" for Burning Heart or Xorian Cipher.

[sirgog]

Recommended Group 4 or more players. Maybe ask to make it more visible or something like that.

Edit: Just checked Delera's Quest Journal and well it does say 3 or more players.

Sins of Attrition says that too, and the quest is significantly harder with 3+ than it is with 1.

[Angelus_dead]

Sins of Attrition says that too, and the quest is significantly harder with 3+ than it is with 1.

That's a failure of the dungeon scaling design, which is really a separate topic from scripted multi-participant objectives.