Remove Glancing Blows

[Pwesiela]

My point has been there has ALWAYS been a caster ability in the game to deal with high AC... people just don't use them

Because you can't use a caster ability when playing on your melee.

Bring in Brilliant Energy weapons (you'll see +5 hide armor sales go through the roof). Brilliant energy IGNORES non-organic armor, meaning "You have +5 mithral breastplate and +5 tower shield? Bring it

Well that's all fine and dandy. Never seen a brilliant energy weapon in game. Who knows if we ever will. Brilliant energy may have been a solution they were thinking about adding instead of grazing hits, but they didn't add it and there's no indication that they've ever considered it. Gotta deal with what exists in this argument. Save the possibilities for the suggestions forum.

Then why isn't EVERYONE going for AC builds? I mean if High AC is the end all be all of character builds, why are there TWF people that are not monks? Why are there casters? If a majority of the server population isn't moving towards a specific build, then I don't see a problem. I still see people from level 1 to 20 strapping two kopeshes or two dwarven axes or two something into their hands and never putting them down, I still see casters in robes, and I sometimes get told "Put the shield away and pull out another weapon."

Because nothing in this game is the be-all-end-all. That's part of its beauty. Grazing hits helps prevent AC from becoming the be-all-end-all, and thus should be something you support as it helps reduce it's "uberness."

Non-to-hit focused melee? Is that like a non-to-heal cleric? What if I play a stalwart defender with a high Str? I'm to hit focus but not a kensai, but because of grazing hits Turbine can increase the monster's AC so that I only hit on a 17+ I would feel robbed that I'm hitting as a fighter class what normally semi-melee build normally do, and those builds which use to hit on at 17+ will now hit on a 20. Why does the issue only have to be with what is happening NOW. I'm looking ahead, what Turbine said they were going to be able to do now BECAUSE of grazing hits being added

Take Uduk, he's a meat wall. He's got a ton of con and a ton of ac. He's got a crappy str, and a relatively horrible to hit. His job in a party is to keep all attacks focused on him. Take Roson. She's a kensai dual wielder. She can break through Uduk's AC fairly reliably. But she doesn't do as much damage as Mwetida, who has a lower to hit, but higher dps output. That's right, you can have a to-hit focused melee, a melee without that focus, and a melee that dabs into higher to-hit, but wants more dps.

Why does there have to be a Melee solution to a melee problem? Why are you so against spell casters? I mean it is bad enough they get gimped with the insanely high SR of monsters at the high end, but you want to take away what little use they have left offensively? Able to get around a monster's AC is one of the biggest advantages a caster has against melee

Seems to me you need to stop posting in this thread and start a new one in the caster forums about how you feel concerning the lessening role of casters. Your problem isn't with grazing hits, it's with how (in your view) casters are being marginalized.

And who ever said I'm against casters? I have several of them. I enjoy them. And none of them have issues with dealing with melee mobs. SR is it's own separate issue, independent of AC grazing hits, and not suitable for this forum.

[Pwesiela]

PS... can't they always hit on a nat 20 no matter how high your AC is? So I guess high AC has no point?

Correct. That hasn't changed. But have you ever tried beating down one of the melee drow in TS on elite with a single lvl 11-12 fighter before grazing hits? It took for-ev-er. Even worse, the house P vampire. There's an ac build that practically defeated all practicality of having melee in on him. You had to roll a 19-20 to hit him and he would regen all you did, and more, by the time you hit him again. That was a casters mob to kill. With grazing hits, melee can do enough damage via grazing hits to minimize his regen while still doing meaningful damage in that battle.

[SquelchHU]

Yes, and it is this exact ADD mentality that ruined this game. It has to be fast! It has to be furious! I have to be able to move AND swing my sword at the same time, because I'm too fast and too freaking furious

Try: Because if I can't, the enemy will just move out of reach, casually and completely nullifying my ability to contribute to the combat. You want an accurate PnP experience, you accept that you must be able to move and full attack in the same round or you might as well not be there. Pounce or go home.

Now you are right about the speed thing to an extent, but not in the way you think, and 'buff timers counting down, must finish objectives quickly' is an indication of being accurate to PnP. You know, that thing you want to happen. So the party is running to the BBEG, instead of Scrying and Teleporting there. Same concept.

The rest was a minor flaw, very minor because the game had options: You could make areas rest restricted. So say you wanted to make a dungeon without possibility for rest, then you could make it impossible to rest. If you wanted a "Shrine" in that area, you could make that area rest-enabled. The whole system was fixed using scripted encounters when in a dungeon and not resting in a "safe area" in the expansion campaign. And even the original campaign had rest-restricted areas, although it clearly was not a priority for the developers to limit it to "balance" spellcasters. You see, when designing the NWN campaign the developers didn't think one bit about stuff like rest spamming, because the game was not designed to be played just as the campaign. The idea behind the campaign was to have a story and to have the player advance through that story in an RP manner, with people being able to create their own modules with whatever they wanted added (such as rest-restricted areas). Sure you could spam rest, but the game had everything basic correct such as combat flow and say, SPELLS PER DAY? (eventually, *sigh* AC bugs, it's an Atari thing though)

So 'you arbitrarily cannot cast Rope Trick here' then. Are you for or against being accurate to PnP? Right now you are flip flopping so much that I am starting to get concerned I should put you back in the water.

While in this game, my character attacks like he just took some speed right from level 1. I suddenly have a weird number called SP and figured "Must be a 4.0Ed thing or w/e". That was bad enough already, but in the end the game has nothing to do with DnD at all even if you ignore these very obvious flaws. For instance, the game even asked my Lawful Good paladin to kill a bunch of heretics, and I had no option whatsoever to finish this mission in a different way. How is that DnD? I'm not saying this game should feature decisions every frigging dungeon, but even for the very few quests where it would actually be a fun and original change of pace the developers just went "screw it, just hack through the guys". Infact, the only part I have come to where I could make a decision was in 3BC.

And if you want to try pulling the roleplay card in a place where it has no place... Kindly demonstrate to me how you can take five seconds to swing a sword once, and still have enough force behind the blow to harm someone on the receiving end. Alternately, explain what you're doing while waiting between swings. Waiting for a cooldown to expire? Yeah, that's real accurate. Sounds more like you'd enjoy a click and wait MMO. But you really don't want to do that either, do you?

Edit: All the quotes in the main topic are so jumbled up at this point, I could not follow them if I wanted to.

[Pwesiela]

Edit: All the quotes in the main topic are so jumbled up at this point, I could not follow them if I wanted to.

I'm knowing that feeling.

[toughguyjoe]

Something that I don't understand in all of this nonsense hes spewing is that he keeps saying its an annoyance.

It is an anoyance felt by higher AC toons to make them use their resources and limit their invulnerability. This is what a game developer does to try and keep balance. He puts in small things that effect some characters more than others. Its a finesse thing. I know you'd like them to use a Hammer(Searing light? Yes! everyone wants a high damage scaling searing light thrown at them in three quarters of quests. Maybe we can code the casters to read our AC and throw those big direct damage spells at the higher AC toons? I'm sure they'll work on that. :P)

Why do lower ac toons not feel it? because they are going to get hit on those numbers anyway.

I've been making a point to play with F2P players across three of the older servers and NONE of them have complained about Grazing Hits.

Toons that were proud of their 25-30 AC (new players, of course) and were simply happy to be only taking damage every now and again, and usually only 1-3 points at a time.

I would say four to five pugs a day, mostly different players, usually don't see many of them twice.

Is that a decent number of players to get a little look at the statistics?

Too bad i'm not a math guy.

Oh, two more things:

1: You mentioned Clerics having to deal with idiots, and now having tod eal with the damage on the high Ac toons as well. If you play with sub par players on a regular basis that is your own mistake, not trubines.

2: You mentioned that the Forum goers are a minority in game? Thats rather strange as i play with an extended network of people on Argonessen, many use the forums, some don't. If you don't play with these people or see them in gmae maybe thats a hint that you're not in the same channels and raiding circles they are? Could there be a reason for that?

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

I'm just going to stop posting on this thread because it seems the only thing on this forum care about is how changes effect them, and not possible changes that are going to happen in the future. You're noses are so upturned that you can't see in front of your faces the changes that are going to be in the works

Fine leave grazing hits in, then when people start complaining when trash mobs in future updates have ACs in the 80s and above I'll be here to say "I told you so"

Also about forum goers in the game. Just cause you're surrounded with them, doesn't mean they are common. I pug almost 100% of the time, and have not met a single one. I've been playing for YEARS and I have not met a single person who posts on the forum in any of the groups I pug in. I don't ask all the time, but I ask most of the time.

So someone with a friend's list full of forum goers and runs with his guild a lot... or someone who is basically a only pugs. Who do you think would see more of what's going on in a server?

Also, when I find players I don't enjoy playing with, I try to avoid them. Hence why players like you I often avoid because you've got your head up your

[Korvek]

2: You mentioned that the Forum goers are a minority in game? Thats rather strange as i play with an extended network of people on Argonessen, many use the forums, some don't. If you don't play with these people or see them in gmae maybe thats a hint that you're not in the same channels and raiding circles they are? Could there be a reason for that?

To be entirely fair, that doesn't discount his point that forum-goers are in the minority. It merely indicates that the (I hesitate to say) "upper echelons" of the DDO gaming world are more prone to forum use.

I personally can't say one way or the other, as I primarily solo or shortman quests, rather than PuG, so I have a limited viewpoint on the average DDO player's forum usage.

[Aranticus]

Look what happens when I forget my sarcasm disclaimer... also where did you get I need a cleric to run harbor stuff on elite? I mean come on I was talking about the SHROUD. You know the thing where we craft green steel items? It's level 17 by the sounds of it I don't think you've actually been in there, because if you did you would have realized that it wasn't in the harbor. How you get there is pretty close to the same door in the market as the harbor, you just go to the right some if you're facing the harbor door in the market, but that's about where the connection of the shroud to the harbor ends.

I surprised to see you think of shroud like it's some uber raid. Shroud to a bunch of high levels is what harbor is like to a bunch of lowbies. It is been done without healers, all sorc groups, all ranger groups, heck even 3 manned with no clerics

it used to be challenging, now it's a cake walk. Since EU was launched, the shrouds I led were mostly 1 pass runs where in the past we were looking at 2. If you think you need a cleric to run it, more power to you. I don't...

[Aranticus]

ever think it might be the server? I pug a lot too and I know a lot of people ingame who post in the forums. I even have players recognize me from the threads I started. On khyber, pugs are almost like running with guildies and friends because we all know each other so well

there are of coz exceptions. Lousy players tend to run in their own circles....

I'm just going to stop posting on this thread because it seems the only thing on this forum care about is how changes effect them, and not possible changes that are going to happen in the future. You're noses are so upturned that you can't see in front of your faces the changes that are going to be in the works

Fine leave grazing hits in, then when people start complaining when trash mobs in future updates have ACs in the 80s and above I'll be here to say "I told you so"

Also about forum goers in the game. Just cause you're surrounded with them, doesn't mean they are common. I pug almost 100% of the time, and have not met a single one. I've been playing for YEARS and I have not met a single person who posts on the forum in any of the groups I pug in. I don't ask all the time, but I ask most of the time.

So someone with a friend's list full of forum goers and runs with his guild a lot... or someone who is basically a only pugs. Who do you think would see more of what's going on in a server?

Also, when I find players I don't enjoy playing with, I try to avoid them. Hence why players like you I often avoid because you've got your head up your

[captfurious]

ever think it might be the server? I pug a lot too and I know a lot of people ingame who post in the forums. I even have players recognize me from the threads I started. On khyber, pugs are almost like running with guildies and friends because we all know each other so well

there are of coz exceptions. Lousy players tend to run in their own circles....

Aran, I am on khyber, and I think I have never run with you. (*sniff*) Your templates for new players got me on the right track, and I'd love to thank you for it.

Wait a minute...

Does that mean I'm one of the lousy players that run in the lousy circle?

[toughguyjoe]

I'm just going to stop posting on this thread because it seems the only thing on this forum care about is how changes effect them, and not possible changes that are going to happen in the future. You're noses are so upturned that you can't see in front of your faces the changes that are going to be in the works

Look Kreskin. No one can say what Turbine may or may not do. Go ahead and think Grazing Hits are the first few pebbles in a landslide that ruins the game. Its your oppinion. Its wrong, but its your oppinion.

Fine leave grazing hits in, then when people start complaining when trash mobs in future updates have ACs in the 80s and above I'll be here to say "I told you so"

I'm sure you'll say something FAR more foolish than that. Too bad we won't see that day.

Also about forum goers in the game. Just cause you're surrounded with them, doesn't mean they are common. I pug almost 100% of the time, and have not met a single one. I've been playing for YEARS and I have not met a single person who posts on the forum in any of the groups I pug in. I don't ask all the time, but I ask most of the time.

I pug about 80% of the time. I am not in a "guild". I have more access to forum goers than the normal pugger, its true. However you might be surprised how many people in pugs comment on threads in the forums without any help. People read these forums. Limited people post.

So someone with a friend's list full of forum goers and runs with his guild a lot... or someone who is basically a only pugs. Who do you think would see more of what's going on in a server?

I think you see whats going on about two feet in front of your face. Take those blinders off, see DDO for what it is, and hopefully, you'll leave.

Also, when I find players I don't enjoy playing with, I try to avoid them. Hence why players like you I often avoid because you've got your head up your

You found me? My head is so far up my....? What was it? Aw, were you one of the people I made mad in a quest? Do you need a hug?

[Aspenor]

there are of coz exceptions. Lousy players tend to run in their own circles....

The same is the case on Argo. I wonder which circle he plays in?

[Aranticus]

Aran, I am on khyber, and I think I have never run with you. (*sniff*) Your templates for new players got me on the right track, and I'd love to thank you for it.

Wait a minute...

Does that mean I'm one of the lousy players that run in the lousy circle?

if your join date is a reflection of your newness to the game, then you probably dun meet me often but this will change. most of my toons are running endgame content, so if you are new chances are you wont meet me for another 1-2 more months. however, i'm rolling up a lowbie barb with my guildies in a semi static group and we have 1 spot open

[Pwesiela]

however, i'm rolling up a lowbie barb with my guildies in a semi static group and we have 1 spot open

Run capt. Run far and fast.

[Chimaira]

Try: Because if I can't, the enemy will just move out of reach, casually and completely nullifying my ability to contribute to the combat. You want an accurate PnP experience, you accept that you must be able to move and full attack in the same round or you might as well not be there. Pounce or go home.

In NWN you could not attack and move at the same time, yet the whole problem of not being able to hit didn't exist there. In fact, the only way someone could kite was by exploiting a bug. If say, you moved for a second, your round was counted as moving and you had to wait before starting your attack. This (normally, without exploits) prevents archers and mages kiting you. Have you tried hitting a skilled archer or mage in the lobster? It's basicly impossible because of how the game works, you will never be able to hit him because you can attack and move at the same time, thus the mage or archer can just keep on running and jumping and prevent you from reaching him.

So 'you arbitrarily cannot cast Rope Trick here' then. Are you for or against being accurate to PnP? Right now you are flip flopping so much that I am starting to get concerned I should put you back in the water.

The rules should be as accurate to pnp for as far this is possible and balanced in a game. Otto's irresistable dance is not balanced, rather then giving mobs stupid immunities that prevent them from being affected by it (while, according to pnp, such a mob should be affected by it) it's better to just not have it in the game at all, or modify it so it is balanced. They did not have a problem putting Otto's as it is in, yet it's a huge problem to have spells per day and balanced melee attack speed? That's just having screwed up priorities.

And if you want to try pulling the roleplay card in a place where it has no place... Kindly demonstrate to me how you can take five seconds to swing a sword once, and still have enough force behind the blow to harm someone on the receiving end. Alternately, explain what you're doing while waiting between swings. Waiting for a cooldown to expire? Yeah, that's real accurate. Sounds more like you'd enjoy a click and wait MMO. But you really don't want to do that either, do you?

Edit: All the quotes in the main topic are so jumbled up at this point, I could not follow them if I wanted to.

Normally I wouldn't even bother with such a silly "LOL Realism" question when talking about a freaking fantasy game, but sure I'll throw you a bone. Most of the swing is actually force buildup and recovery from the swing. A more skilled swordsman would be able to recover faster and buildup force more easily and thus attack faster. My point about RP was more that the whole game is unimaginative in that it's one big hack and slash fest, not what you would expect from a DnD game (it does have the DnD label now doesn't it?). Something you could not say about the NWN campaign. So you could rest every second? Big deal. The rest of the game was in line with PnP, and it was more about designing modules yourself (which had the option of restricting rest). But this game didn't really get anything right. Oh sure we got Pit Fiends and Kobolds, I suppose that's a bit DnD.

It should just have been called "MMO with DnD copyrighted material", that way I wouldn't be surprised when facing 100 hp kobolds grazing me on rolls of 15 when I got 40 AC.

[toughguyjoe]

They made a DND game, and its called DDO and its not what i expected or wanted.

Hi Welcome.

Welcome to DDO.

DDO is like popeye.

Popeye says, "I Am, What I Am"

DDO Is, What It Is.

Have Fun.

[The_Mighty_Cube]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!! Get in ma belly little thread! You're so delicious what with all the name calling and flaming and all...