Remove Glancing Blows

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Thank you Forum community for reminding me why I left. People don't even attempt to address the issues. Just make fun of the op.

If the grazing hits were something that people left the game then leave it out, cause putting it back in isn't going to make them come back

Why? Are people upset that they don't see a number every time they swing? It's called not building a gimp build. I have a level 17 fighter that has a +37 unbuffed, who needs help hitting things? at Level 20 I'll hit things with a 56+ AC half the time without any help from grazing hits. The only purpose they serve in the game is to annoy players and give non-physical combat characters a chance to do damage

If getting hit 15% of the time from every attack on hard and 25% of the time on hard for 1d6 each doesn't hurt at low levels, you have to have a Con build, and did you miss the part from the opening post that said "AC builds are now gimped unless you have DR" (DR=Damage Reduction which you can get from stalwart defender)
d
I dare 1 person to give 1 good reason why this feature should remain in the game. It does NOT balance ANYTHING out. I mean for crying out loud my halfling Thrower Build has a +45 to hit at level 20 unbuffed are there people out there that honestly can't get even close to that? (granted it's 9 points lower when a non-throwing axe is equipped). I didn't even max out my dex for throwing weapons

BTW Shade I don't think someone with an AC of 32 at level 4 can be considered a LOW AC build, but thanks for proving how ignorant people on the forums can be

[FluffyCalico]

Thank you Forum community for reminding me why I left.

I wasn't aware you left

[Junts]

Thank you Forum community for reminding me why I left. People don't even attempt to address the issues. Just make fun of the op.

If the grazing hits were something that people left the game then leave it out, cause putting it back in isn't going to make them come back

Why? Are people upset that they don't see a number every time they swing? It's called not building a gimp build. I have a level 17 fighter that has a +37 unbuffed, who needs help hitting things? at Level 20 I'll hit things with a 56+ AC half the time without any help from grazing hits. The only purpose they serve in the game is to annoy players and give non-physical combat characters a chance to do damage

If getting hit 15% of the time from every attack on hard and 25% of the time on hard for 1d6 each doesn't hurt at low levels, you have to have a Con build, and did you miss the part from the opening post that said "AC builds are now gimped unless you have DR" (DR=Damage Reduction which you can get from stalwart defender)
d
I dare 1 person to give 1 good reason why this feature should remain in the game. It does NOT balance ANYTHING out. I mean for crying out loud my halfling Thrower Build has a +45 to hit at level 20 unbuffed are there people out there that honestly can't get even close to that? (granted it's 9 points lower when a non-throwing axe is equipped). I didn't even max out my dex for throwing weapons

BTW Shade I don't think someone with an AC of 32 at level 4 can be considered a LOW AC build, but thanks for proving how ignorant people on the forums can be

Grazing hits help control the exponential power growth of armor class as you approach being hit only on a 20; without grazing hits, increasing your armor class from the point where the mob hits you on a 4 to where it only hits you on a 1 reduces your incoming damage by a tremendous percentage (75% reduction from that one item/increase alone), and the damage from grazing hits is exceptionally low except via raid bosses - even elite quest mobs graze for around 1d8 damage tops, and shield users get further reductions (which helps make having an equal ac with a tower shield better than having the same ac as a twf .. another benefit, in and of itself). the simple use of any kind of dr item (golden greaves, stoneskin clickies, or at low levels, spear bane and furor's hide) will entirely negate the damage you may suffer via grazing hits.

While I have several characters that are ac focused, including my main, and was initially very unhappy with grazing hits, they have not been a significant play problem, and in fact leveling my last character (with extremely good ac in the 1-8 range), i did not notice grazing hits to be a significant problem at all, due to the wise use of dr items. They may, tops, equate to an extra 3-5 csw pots used during a typical quest. They are not the problem.

They pose more of a problem for non-monk twf ac builds, while being very much a negligible problem for tower shield users, umd twf builds (shield spell reduces grazing damage) and monks (who get static reductions; when combined with a shield spell, they take the least grazing of all).

A change that benefits plate+tower and monk ac builds over ranger or rogue twf and dps builds is a good change, since the first two builds are actually focusing on defense, whereas the ranger used to out do them without trying.

[Aranticus]

Thank you Forum community for reminding me why I left.

If the grazing hits were something that people left the game then leave it out, cause putting it back in isn't going to make them come back

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Grazing hits help control the exponential power growth of armor class as you approach being hit only on a 20; without grazing hits, increasing your armor class from the point where the mob hits you on a 4 to where it only hits you on a 1 reduces your incoming damage by a tremendous percentage (75% reduction from that one item/increase alone), and the damage from grazing hits is exceptionally low except via raid bosses - even elite quest mobs graze for around 1d8 damage tops, and shield users get further reductions (which helps make having an equal ac with a tower shield better than having the same ac as a twf .. another benefit, in and of itself). the simple use of any kind of dr item (golden greaves, stoneskin clickies, or at low levels, spear bane and furor's hide) will entirely negate the damage you may suffer via grazing hits.

While I have several characters that are ac focused, including my main, and was initially very unhappy with grazing hits, they have not been a significant play problem, and in fact leveling my last character (with extremely good ac in the 1-8 range), i did not notice grazing hits to be a significant problem at all, due to the wise use of dr items. They may, tops, equate to an extra 3-5 csw pots used during a typical quest. They are not the problem.

They pose more of a problem for non-monk twf ac builds, while being very much a negligible problem for tower shield users, umd twf builds (shield spell reduces grazing damage) and monks (who get static reductions; when combined with a shield spell, they take the least grazing of all).

A change that benefits plate+tower and monk ac builds over ranger or rogue twf and dps builds is a good change, since the first two builds are actually focusing on defense, whereas the ranger used to out do them without trying.

Glazing hits needs to be in there so the mobs can hit the players... or are you saying there are some fighter types that can only hit the mobs on a 20?

My point is you don't need to have DR to not take damage period. If you remove Glazing hits from the game DR is back to where it was before, reducing the damage you take IF you get hit, not WHEN you get hit

[toughguyjoe]

Glazing hits needs to be in there so the mobs can hit the players... or are you saying there are some fighter types that can only hit the mobs on a 20?

Bingo. You'd make a good court jester. You could dance around and spout gibberish about video games.

Grazing Hits were added to the game as a way to curtail the AC of certain characters. You say it doesn't balance anything. However have you played a shield bearing fighter at low level? I have. Grazing hits account for VERY little damage. I also play a person with no shield and moderate to high AC from elvel 1-10. Grazing hits upped the amount of damage i took. Did it make me whine and cry on the forums? No.

My point is you don't need to have DR to not take damage period. If you remove Glazing hits from the game DR is back to where it was before, reducing the damage you take IF you get hit, not WHEN you get hit

Your point is that you liked it when every mob missed you at low level making the beginning of teh game easier. What you REAL point is, is that a +1 Wounding Dwarven Axe of Puncturing is real.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Grazing Hits were added to the game as a way to curtail the AC of certain characters.

So when is Oversized TWF DPS going to get the nurf then?



I mean AC was SO overpowering the game now it seems they needed to nurf that by what you say, and even then there are ways around it so it serves no purpose but to force players to have specific items at lower levels, which they can discard at higher ones

I was running around Butcher's path (just for fun and to kill time) on hard with my level 20. I took more damage from glazing hits (with a +5 heavy shield) then I did magic from scorching rays (I got hit once) Glazing hits work on melee attacks, ranged attacks, and attack animations it seems cause while a kobold couldn't reach me around a corner, his glazing hit from the alchemist pot he threw did (i.e. it didn't even come up miss the 6 other times then suddenly *Bam* glazing hit) and before you go "Oh it took you that long to kill him?" I was attacking the kolbolds closer to me first


oh p.s. I have played shield bearing fighters at low level. I was running around with a +2 mithral tower shield and getting hit from 1-5 points/ glazing hit. I haven't read anything about how it is SUPPOSE to work, but it's like a DVD rewinder. It's not needed

[captain1z]

I was running around Butcher's path (just for fun and to kill time) on hard with my level 20. I took more damage from glazing hits (with a +5 heavy shield) then I did magic from scorching rays (I got hit once) Glazing hits work on melee attacks, ranged attacks, and attack animations it seems cause while a kobold couldn't reach me around a corner, his glazing hit from the alchemist pot he threw did (i.e. it didn't even come up miss the 6 other times then suddenly *Bam* glazing hit) and before you go "Oh it took you that long to kill him?" I was attacking the kolbolds closer to me first

Grazing hits also works for ranged attacks, this includes a kobolds achemist pot. Those Pots do half bludgeoning damage and half fire damage. The fire damage is scaled at higher difficulties. If you had 10 pts of protection from fire you would have taken zero damage but regular DR wont block it. On elite his throw would only have to roll a 15 so yeah, without some sort of fire protection if you get hit by a jar filled with flaming oil that smashes against your shield, you are gonna take some fire damage. Im pretty sure 95% of the damage you took was was fire and not physical thus the shield working as intended.

If your arguement is that the kobold hit you from around the corner, thats not grazing hits, its another issue all together. Beholder rays, arrows and spells that require line of sight do the same thing. Some of its been tweaked to be better than it was (like earthgrab and the beholder rays) but its still not perfect.

Why so angry? Honestly like some others have posted (myself inluded) we didnt like the idea of grazing hits and maybe we still dont but the damage is so minimal its barely even noticeable. Is 1-8 points (which can be reduced by 90% if you have a shield and more than 50% without) so crippling in your experience. My wizard does just fine with just a shield spell he only takes 1-2 pts and his bracers will negate 3 pts of that if its piercing (as a wizard I really only have to worry about arrows if I play my cards right...... for everything else there is stoneskin)


In both Gianthold and Meridia Ive never seen a graze do more than 5pts at best.... If one were to pick his battles I would not go to war over 5 pts. Dungeon scaling as it was was another story.

[Junts]

The only mobs I have -ever- seen graze for double digit damage are Suulomades and Horoth, though I'm sure Arraetrikos does too and I just don't notice it ..

Suulo on normal grazes for 15-20; Horoth on hard grazes in the 40-50s (which makes sense, since his normal melee can do as much as 130 on that difficulty).

Grazing hits mean that certain kinds of ac builds have more protection than other kinds of ac builds, and that tower shield using paladin and especially fighter builds are better at defending themselves than a similarly ac'd halfling rogue.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Grazing hits also works for ranged attacks, this includes a kobolds achemist pot. Those Pots do half bludgeoning damage and half fire damage. The fire damage is scaled at higher difficulties. If you had 10 pts of protection from fire you would have taken zero damage but regular DR wont block it. On elite his throw would only have to roll a 15 so yeah, without some sort of fire protection if you get hit by a jar filled with flaming oil that smashes against your shield, you are gonna take some fire damage. Im pretty sure 95% of the damage you took was was fire and not physical thus the shield working as intended.

If your arguement is that the kobold hit you from around the corner, thats not grazing hits, its another issue all together. Beholder rays, arrows and spells that require line of sight do the same thing. Some of its been tweaked to be better than it was (like earthgrab and the beholder rays) but its still not perfect.

Why so angry? Honestly like some others have posted (myself inluded) we didnt like the idea of grazing hits and maybe we still dont but the damage is so minimal its barely even noticeable. Is 1-8 points (which can be reduced by 90% if you have a shield and more than 50% without) so crippling in your experience. My wizard does just fine with just a shield spell he only takes 1-2 pts and his bracers will negate 3 pts of that if its piercing (as a wizard I really only have to worry about arrows if I play my cards right...... for everything else there is stoneskin)


In both Gianthold and Meridia Ive never seen a graze do more than 5pts at best.... If one were to pick his battles I would not go to war over 5 pts. Dungeon scaling as it was was another story.

Well you obviously don't know how glazing hits works 100%, cause glazing hits don't do elemental damage at all. They just do the 1d# from glazing hits

it was a glazing hit because it came up the glazing hit symbol. That yellow arrow thing that looks like a ricochet

It is because I've gone through so many quests where the healer goes down, leaving the rest of the party to fend for themselves until they can get the healer up, and EVERY HP counts. getting nickled and dimed for 1d6 10% of the time on normal 15% on hard and 25% on elite causes problems, when as you said it serves no purpose in the game but to ANNOY people. So why are people not with me calling for it to be removed?

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

The only mobs I have -ever- seen graze for double digit damage are Suulomades and Horoth, though I'm sure Arraetrikos does too and I just don't notice it ..

Suulo on normal grazes for 15-20; Horoth on hard grazes in the 40-50s (which makes sense, since his normal melee can do as much as 130 on that difficulty).

Grazing hits mean that certain kinds of ac builds have more protection than other kinds of ac builds, and that tower shield using paladin and especially fighter builds are better at defending themselves than a similarly ac'd halfling rogue.

I have YET to see in game a shield make a difference. The only difference I've seen is DR can reduce and eliminate glazing hits.

The only purpose anyone has given me is to get people to use shields and wear DR items. Shields I understand I normally don't see many people running around with those (more people started using them when Stalwart defender came out).

Now if people can avoid nit picking this post and stick to the issue of WHY should it be kept in the game or help me get it removed from the game I would probably die from shock

[Pwesiela]

Well you obviously don't know how glazing hits works 100%, cause glazing hits don't do elemental damage at all. They just do the 1d# from glazing hits

Look. Show_me. I'm never sure what you're talking about. Glazing hits? I'm trying to figure out if you're talking about grazing hits, glancing blows, or some weird combination of the two that you're mashing together for argument's sake.

They added grazing hits because it offered a way for players and monsters to work down high ac opponents. Ever tried meleeing the vampire in house P while level appropriate on elite? It's insane without grazing him.

[Josh]

Personally, I think the concept of "grazing hits" is completely inane. So the mob misses me, but I still take damage? That doesn't make any sense at all.

[Memnir]

Thank you Forum community for reminding me why I left.

And yet here you are...

Glazing hits needs to be in there so the mobs can hit the players... or are you saying there are some fighter types that can only hit the mobs on a 20?

My point is you don't need to have DR to not take damage period. If you remove Glazing hits from the game DR is back to where it was before, reducing the damage you take IF you get hit, not WHEN you get hit

Man... now all I can think of is doughnuts...


Mmmmmmmmmm... Glazing hits...


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.

[Pwesiela]

And yet here you are... Man... now all I can think of is doughnuts...


Mmmmmmmmmm... Glazing hits...

.[/COLOR]

Addict. There's a great program called Doughnut Eaters Anonymous. Look into it.

[Memnir]

Look... just because I would live inside a doughnut if I could - and in fact dream of it each and every night! - does not mean I have a problem!!!






Don't judge me!

[Borror0]

Stop talking about doughnuts. The nearest Tim Hortons is freaking far.

[Korvek]

When a group of 5 CR .5 kolbold can take down 50% of the HP on a level 4 character with an AC of 32 before the last one is dead there is something MAJORLY wrong with that system

Really? Try not to go afk for 15 minutes as soon as you aggro them then.

[Diarden1]

Personally, I think the concept of "grazing hits" is completely inane. So the mob misses me, but I still take damage? That doesn't make any sense at all.

I methodically read the entire thread, and had quite the laugh. When I first read about Grazing hits coming back into DDO, I got excited. Let me explain why.

When you hit someone with a sword, it hurts. Now, put on some chain armor. If I hit you again in the same spot, it wont hurt as much, but it will still sting. A grazing hit, from my perspective, is a blocked hit. Its like my weapon ricocheting off your armor. It will hurt, it just wont do much damage.

The idea behind the grazing hits is to show that you may have just barely missed the hit, you still weren't fast enough to dodge the blow, or you didn't put enough force behind the shield and were knocked back a bit. Its as real as they can get without reprogramming the entire game.

Now, about the actual damage of grazing hits. In my opinion, you are a pansy. You are complaining about one to five points of damage from a kobolds grazing hit. Really? If I am not mistaken, there is a level one quest that offers different bracers with different damage reduction, as well as a couple other items with pure damage reduction to all types of melee damage. Whats the issue?

I agree. Wearing a shield does not give you automatic DR unless you have stalwart defender. Actively blocking with the shield will give you DR, but just having it equipped without SD wont give you the DR. At least to my knowledge. However, there are plenty of items out there that will give you the DR you need to bypass the grazing hits.


Also, your level 20 was getting rocked by level 2 kobolds? really? I solo Butchers on hard with a level 1, with level 1 gear from korthos, and barely get scratched. I think something is wrong with either your gear, or your playstyle. Or go back to Korthos at 20 and pick up some new gear, cause you may need it.

- Calloused

[Quelle]

This thread has me totally confused.

What with the vagueness of the OP and the weirdness of some of the answers, I'm not really sure I know what either grazing or glancing mean.

I think glancing is the result of aoe melee? Maybe whirlwind or something where a player or mob gets hit by a weapon not specifically directed at them but still specifically intended to do damage?

I am guessing that grazing is like when I am attacking something and not doing something specifically aoe but hit a mob that gets within the arc of my blade?

Whether I am right or not about that, I think I understand the point of the OP.

If grazing hits cause damage irregardless of the fact that you are wearing armour, ie if they automatically cause damage, then I think thats wrong.

Oops I swung wide and grazed a tank in plate armour with my toothpick and he takes 5 points (or whatever) simply because thats how grazing hits work?

Doesnt make sense. If something hits your armour then your AC has to be taken into account. Thats what its there for surely and thats its purpose and function in the game. I get to close to a mob swinging its blade around and I dont get the benefit of protection from my high dex? What I just stood there watching this longsword swiping in my direction and didnt use my lithe grace to try get out of the way?

That said, the grazing damage on my twf (if I understand it right) is appreciable and I would not want to see it cut out of the game entirely. Its not just that its more or less a realistic idea, it also adds some excitement to playing a melee character.

I think one dangerous thing is this...

The tank can maybe cope with the grazes even if they directly bypass armour. S/he should have enough hp to be able to handle a reasonable amount of direct incidental damage.

But, the twf dps, the dps'ing off tank, the rogue - the other characters that are there with less AC and less HP? Those grazes are gonna kill them very fast, which effectively turns the melee character into one that must have a high HP in order to be effective.

Sorry but that does not work. I played LOTRO for a year and uttery detested the absolute need for HP in every single character type. Loremaster on a Balrog raid without HP boosting gear, nearly useless. One AOE and he was mincemeat.

Its very boring to be constrained toward and HP oriented build that is incongrous to what your class actually should be doing. If grazing hits do diretly bypass armour then this has to be changed so taht all builds have viability and not just HP builds.