Remove Glancing Blows

[Diarden1]

Quelle, as I agree with some of your points, I disagree completely on the rest.

As my post above yours explains the rationale of grazing hits, your idea that all character builds should be inherently different when it comes to hp is completely off base.

If you are wearing leather armor as a rogue, and your armor class is super high (rogues can get some of the highest AC in the game), chances are you can tank almost the toughest raid bosses. That being the case, if you were in my PnP game with high AC, and we discussed and agreed upon grazing hits... you better believe if you're hit by a grazing hit in leather, you're going to take a lot more damage.

That being the case, and after reading what I just wrote, I want to take the side of the OP. I would like to change Grazing hits to do more damage to cloth and leather wearers, and less damage to people in plate armor. Realistically, thats what should happen.


CHANGE GRAZING HITS!!! SQUISHIES SHOULD WEAR PLATE!

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

I methodically read the entire thread, and had quite the laugh. When I first read about Grazing hits coming back into DDO, I got excited. Let me explain why.

When you hit someone with a sword, it hurts. Now, put on some chain armor. If I hit you again in the same spot, it wont hurt as much, but it will still sting. A grazing hit, from my perspective, is a blocked hit. Its like my weapon ricocheting off your armor. It will hurt, it just wont do much damage. Actually AC in D&D works like this. The AC is the number that an attack has to get above to DEAL damage. Else it is considered the armor protected you enough to prevent you from taking damage. Hence why Full Plate has a +8 while Breast Plate has a +5. Breast Plate leave more of your body exposed to take damage then Full Plate

The idea behind the grazing hits is to show that you may have just barely missed the hit, you still weren't fast enough to dodge the blow, or you didn't put enough force behind the shield and were knocked back a bit. Its as real as they can get without reprogramming the entire game.

Now, about the actual damage of grazing hits. In my opinion, you are a pansy. You are complaining about one to five points of damage from a kobolds grazing hit. Really? If I am not mistaken, there is a level one quest that offers different bracers with different damage reduction, as well as a couple other items with pure damage reduction to all types of melee damage. Whats the issue? When you have 4 kolbolds throwing pots at you and 5 more swinging away at you and ever 3-4 seconds you're seeing 1-4 points of damage show up with that grazing hit symbol it tends to get annoying. currently 80% of all my non-DR builds are from grazing hits

I agree. Wearing a shield does not give you automatic DR unless you have stalwart defender. Actively blocking with the shield will give you DR, but just having it equipped without SD wont give you the DR. At least to my knowledge. However, there are plenty of items out there that will give you the DR you need to bypass the grazing hits.


Also, your level 20 was getting rocked by level 2 kobolds? really? I solo Butchers on hard with a level 1, with level 1 gear from korthos, and barely get scratched. I think something is wrong with either your gear, or your playstyle. Or go back to Korthos at 20 and pick up some new gear, cause you may need it. No actually my level 4 was. with 60hp taking 1-4 points of damage every 6th attack when you're in the lead tends to really make me mad. I'm currently at an impasse of +2 Str or DR 3

- Calloused

This thread has me totally confused.

What with the vagueness of the OP and the weirdness of some of the answers, I'm not really sure I know what either grazing or glancing mean. I never looked up what the devs called it, so I started calling it glancing blows... then people on the forums couldn't bare to lower their noses enough to simply call it what it was

I think glancing is the result of aoe melee? Maybe whirlwind or something where a player or mob gets hit by a weapon not specifically directed at them but still specifically intended to do damage? actually what I'm talking about is NON-AOE melee. I can't imagine how an Arrow is AOE

I am guessing that grazing is like when I am attacking something and not doing something specifically aoe but hit a mob that gets within the arc of my blade?

Whether I am right or not about that, I think I understand the point of the OP.

If grazing hits cause damage irregardless of the fact that you are wearing armour, ie if they automatically cause damage, then I think thats wrong. Finally someone that agrees that anything that does damage regardless of Armor is wrong

Oops I swung wide and grazed a tank in plate armour with my toothpick and he takes 5 points (or whatever) simply because thats how grazing hits work? That is actually glancing blows and only works on two handed weapons (or a bug that sometimes happens with one handed weapons or ranged weapons)

Doesnt make sense. If something hits your armour then your AC has to be taken into account. Thats what its there for surely and thats its purpose and function in the game. I get to close to a mob swinging its blade around and I dont get the benefit of protection from my high dex? What I just stood there watching this longsword swiping in my direction and didnt use my lithe grace to try get out of the way? Putting an animation to show you avoiding a hit would be to hard to work into the game and have it look nice

That said, the grazing damage on my twf (if I understand it right) is appreciable and I would not want to see it cut out of the game entirely. Its not just that its more or less a realistic idea, it also adds some excitement to playing a melee character. If you need Grazing hits to deal damage with a TWF you need to have it looked at. I have a level 17 DR build that I was working on for fun before Grazing hits came out and has an attack of +33 unbuffed

I think one dangerous thing is this...

The tank can maybe cope with the grazes even if they directly bypass armour. S/he should have enough hp to be able to handle a reasonable amount of direct incidental damage. Clerics cried out for joy when Stalwart Defender came out, then started to cry when something came out that could deal damage regardless of AC

But, the twf dps, the dps'ing off tank, the rogue - the other characters that are there with less AC and less HP? Those grazes are gonna kill them very fast, which effectively turns the melee character into one that must have a high HP in order to be effective. Hence why there are AC tanks and HP tanks

Sorry but that does not work. I played LOTRO for a year and uttery detested the absolute need for HP in every single character type. Loremaster on a Balrog raid without HP boosting gear, nearly useless. One AOE and he was mincemeat. So they put that need for HP into DDO

Its very boring to be constrained toward and HP oriented build that is incongrous to what your class actually should be doing. If grazing hits do diretly bypass armour then this has to be changed so taht all builds have viability and not just HP builds.

I really hope that Turbine comes up with a way they can get input from players other then the forums

[Diarden1]

You apparently don't have any sense of reality. Let me explain in lay-mans terms.

If I smacked you with a sword, blade side out, I'm going to cut you. Its going to hurt. Now, if I throw a chain shirt on you and hit you again, I wont cut you but I will still do significant damage. If I put on plate armor, its harder to hurt you, but still possible.

That's the idea behind grazing hits. Yes, higher armor yields higher AC, but the idea that you barely move out of the way before the hit gives you a bit of damage. Its a penalty for having agro in the first place.

My tank has 76 AC self buffed atm. Most instances I go into, I take almost no damage, except for grazing hits. If they did not bring back Grazing hits in Mod 9, I would almost never need a healer anywhere I went. I would be able to solo most if not all dungeons as a tank (pending on damage vs healing/regen bosses).

Grazing hits is back, and its necessary. Get used to the idea, and get some DR.

[Aranticus]

quit throwing down the "this is not how it works in DnD" argument. DnD doesnt have 100+ AC or 1000 hp either!

[assamite]

I used to like jumpin down into the pit and let nubs swing swing away. If they rolled enough 20's they would kill me in say 20 mins. But now they just swarm and graze swarm and graze... 5 lvl 4's can take out my stone skin and 611HP in about 5 mins... through 56 ac... just aint right.
So after they graze me to death i jump down and graze them to death its only fair

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

You apparently don't have any sense of reality. Let me explain in lay-mans terms. Apparently you don't have and sense of this is a fantasy game so let me explain it in lay-mans terms

If I smacked you with a sword, blade side out, I'm going to cut you. Its going to hurt. Now, if I throw a chain shirt on you and hit you again, I wont cut you but I will still do significant damage. If I put on plate armor, its harder to hurt you, but still possible. If I do damage to you in D&D it means I got PAST your armor and it did not stop/hinder/or prevent me from damaging you

That's the idea behind grazing hits. Yes, higher armor yields higher AC, but the idea that you barely move out of the way before the hit gives you a bit of damage. Its a penalty for having agro in the first place. Then everyone drop full plate and build dex build characters, then grazing hits just means what? I mean you were just a TINY to slow to get out of the way?

My tank has 76 AC self buffed atm. Most instances I go into, I take almost no damage, except for grazing hits. If they did not bring back Grazing hits in Mod 9, I would almost never need a healer anywhere I went. I would be able to solo most if not all dungeons as a tank (pending on damage vs healing/regen bosses). See this is where Spells come into play, you see spells ignore Armor Class AND Damage Reduction

Grazing hits is back, and its necessary. Get used to the idea, and get some DR.I do, I have a TWF build that has a DR 11/Ady, but you see I built it under the assumption that I was going to need the DR to reduce Melee damage, not negate a pointless new game mechanic

quit throwing down the "this is not how it works in DnD" argument. DnD doesnt have 100+ AC or 1000 hp either!

Then change the name from Dungeons and Dragons online to something else. If you're going to call it dungeons and dragons then at least keep the mechanics similar. There are so many things that are dragging DDO from PnP that it's a completely different game now

You know for a group of people that were arguing with me to "Think outside the box" you sure want to put DDO in the box of reality "This isn't how things work in real life so we should make it that way."

If you want reality in a RPG go play Rolemaster (how man weeks is it going to take for my bone to set?)

[Borror0]

Then change the name from Dungeons and Dragons online to something else.

Deviations and house rules are permitted.

[Thaichi23]

Just don't play anymore. I think u said earlier that people left because of grazing hits? Really? Did your mass huge group of friends find this one particular aspect of the game so unbalanced that they quit? No? Just you?

Soooo....you want all the people who left the game(you) to come back by to the game by changing this for them(you)?

[RobbinB]

You apparently don't have any sense of reality. Let me explain in lay-mans terms.

If I smacked you with a sword, blade side out, I'm going to cut you. Its going to hurt. Now, if I throw a chain shirt on you and hit you again, I wont cut you but I will still do significant damage. If I put on plate armor, its harder to hurt you, but still possible.

That's the idea behind grazing hits. Yes, higher armor yields higher AC, but the idea that you barely move out of the way before the hit gives you a bit of damage. Its a penalty for having agro in the first place.

My tank has 76 AC self buffed atm. Most instances I go into, I take almost no damage, except for grazing hits. If they did not bring back Grazing hits in Mod 9, I would almost never need a healer anywhere I went. I would be able to solo most if not all dungeons as a tank (pending on damage vs healing/regen bosses).

Grazing hits is back, and its necessary. Get used to the idea, and get some DR.

To be fair to the op, how does grazing hits make sense wrt the 90 ac monk? I have the high ac because I have an almost supernatural ability to dodge blows. Except 1 time in 20, where luck more than anything means a mob's blade happens to occupy the same space as me. With grazing hits, now I'm being hit by that blade 1/4 of the time (on elite). Call me stupid, but I don't get that.

Some of the responders have said that grazing hits are necessary to ensure that ultra-high ac toons without dr still take "reasonable" damage. And that's exactly what I think the purpose of grazing hit's is - to nerf the monk splashes. But Turbine didn't fess up to this - they claim the grazing hits are to help those poor noobs who can't seem to hit anything and thereby complain on their exit surveys. Sorry but I call bs - compared to real PnP the ridiculous ease with which you can hit stuff in DDO is actually a problem, especially at level 20.

On the other hand:
When grazing hits were announced I was totally against them, and I still don't think they are needed. In practice, however, they haven't been so horrible (keep in mind Turbine tweaked some of the numbers to tone them down a bit). But maybe that's because my monk has epic dr so mostly avoids the damage (good thing I stayed pure). Maybe some of the steps Turbine are taking to increase monk dps means they are fairly counterbalancing a decrease on the defensive side with some increased offense. And certainly it was sort of silly that ranger monk splashes could be both the pinnacle of offensive and defensive uberness, which grazing blows do help to address.

In summary, I am in partial agreement with the op. Grazing hits seem to be a cheap balancing mechanism used by Turbine and don't fit logically in all cases. But they aren't as horrible as many of us felt they would be, and at least Turbine seems open to tweaking the numbers to ensure that grazing blow damage isn't over the top. Just don't feed us that exit-survey complaints about can't hitting stuff *#%^.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Just don't play anymore. I think u said earlier that people left because of grazing hits? Really? Did your mass huge group of friends find this one particular aspect of the game so unbalanced that they quit? No? Just you?

Soooo....you want all the people who left the game(you) to come back by to the game by changing this for them(you)?

I believe someone ELSE said lots of people left cause this was NOT in the game

[Borror0]

To be fair to the op, how does grazing hits make sense wrt the 90 ac monk? I have the high ac because I have an almost supernatural ability to dodge blows. Except 1 time in 20, where luck more than anything means a mob's blade happens to occupy the same space as me. With grazing hits, now I'm being hit by that blade 1/4 of the time (on elite).

Grazing hits makes sense because you dodge most hits completely and avoid most of them from being a telling blow. Sure, you get hit you still mostly dodged it. As Eladrin said when he introduced grazing hits, this is just a prolongation of the unavoidable hit on a natural 20. Now, on a natural 10 or more, your opponent gets lucky and you get "scratched" which deals less meaningful amount of damage than a full hit.

The imagery is pretty clear if you know what "grazing" means.

Some of the responders have said that grazing hits are necessary to ensure that ultra-high ac toons without dr still take "reasonable" damage. And that's exactly what I think the purpose of grazing hit's is - to nerf the monk splashes. But Turbine didn't fess up to this - they claim the grazing hits are to help those poor noobs who can't seem to hit anything and thereby complain on their exit surveys. Sorry but I call bs - compared to real PnP the ridiculous ease with which you can hit stuff in DDO is actually a problem, especially at level 20.

Turbine did say that grazing hits was both to allow high AC builds to take a more reasonable amount of damage (which is not the same as "nerfing monk builds") and nerfing monk builds. If you don't believe me, just go back and read Eladrin's OP on grazing hits. he did list those two reasons.

However, those two are not the only ones.

As Eldarin also said, this will allow them to use high AC monsters without running into the problem they had with Tempest Spine. That is, fighting a monster with too much Armor Class is boring because you miss too often and see no progression for your action. With the implementation of grazing hits, the difference between missing and hitting is less noticeable which solves this problem.

The fact that it is so rare to miss at end game does not undermine this position but rather supports it: unless the DDO developer are too stupid to realize that monsters have an AC so low that we always hit, there has to be a reason as to why their Armor Class is so low for so long.

Finally, you seem to have missed the part where Eladrin mention that the to-hit complaints where low level ones predating Korthos.

Before Korthos, it was not that rare to run into a monster with Armor Class so high that your lowbie could not hit it half the time. As Eladrin said, they addressed that with Korthos by lowering the monsters' AC but that was more of a temporary solution as they want to-hit to matter.

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

Grazing hits makes sense because you dodge most hits completely and avoid most of them from being a telling blow. Sure, you get hit you still mostly dodged it. As Eladrin said when he introduced grazing hits, this is just a prolongation of the unavoidable hit on a natural 20. Now, on a natural 10 or more, your opponent gets lucky and you get "scratched" which deals less meaningful amount of damage than a full hit.

The imagery is pretty clear if you know what "grazing" means.

Turbine did say that grazing hits was both to allow high AC builds to take a more reasonable amount of damage (which is not the same as "nerfing monk builds") and nerfing monk builds. If you don't believe me, just go back and read Eladrin's OP on grazing hits. he did list those two reasons.

However, those two are not the only ones.

As Eldarin also said, this will allow them to use high AC monsters without running into the problem they had with Tempest Spine. That is, fighting a monster with too much Armor Class is boring because you miss too often and see no progression for your action. With the implementation of grazing hits, the difference between missing and hitting is less noticeable which solves this problem.

The fact that it is so rare to miss at end game does not undermine this position but rather supports it: unless the DDO developer are too stupid to realize that monsters have an AC so low that we always hit, there has to be a reason as to why their Armor Class is so low for so long.

Finally, you seem to have missed the part where Eladrin mention that the to-hit complaints where low level ones predating Korthos.

Before Korthos, it was not that rare to run into a monster with Armor Class so high that your lowbie could not hit it half the time. As Eladrin said, they addressed that with Korthos by lowering the monsters' AC but that was more of a temporary solution as they want to-hit to matter.

These are also characters that can technically lift cars above their heads and run faster then a cheetah. I think realism went out the door when we got to that point (a str 28 can lift over head 1,400 lbs, pick up 2,800 lbs, and push pull 7,000 lbs). Tell me how that fits into realism?

If turbine really wants to put things into the realm of realism they will put the HP of things closer to that of PnP and the Damages for weapons as well

There are SO many other things that are overpowering the game, AC was NOT one of them

Oh also about the complaints about not being able to hit anything

Fighter that was built well should have no problems at ANY level of being able to hit things

[Borror0]

These are also characters that can technically lift cars above their heads and run faster then a cheetah. I think realism went out the door when we got to that point (a str 28 can lift over head 1,400 lbs, pick up 2,800 lbs, and push pull 7,000 lbs). Tell me how that fits into realism?

Turbine never claimed that "realism" was the motive behind the change.

Oh also about the complaints about not being able to hit anything

Fighter that was built well should have no problems at ANY level of being able to hit things

Not at lower levels on Elite pre-Module 8.

[noinfo]

You apparently don't have any sense of reality. Let me explain in lay-mans terms.

If I smacked you with a sword, blade side out, I'm going to cut you. Its going to hurt. Now, if I throw a chain shirt on you and hit you again, I wont cut you but I will still do significant damage. If I put on plate armor, its harder to hurt you, but still possible.

That's the idea behind grazing hits. Yes, higher armor yields higher AC, but the idea that you barely move out of the way before the hit gives you a bit of damage. Its a penalty for having agro in the first place.

My tank has 76 AC self buffed atm. Most instances I go into, I take almost no damage, except for grazing hits. If they did not bring back Grazing hits in Mod 9, I would almost never need a healer anywhere I went. I would be able to solo most if not all dungeons as a tank (pending on damage vs healing/regen bosses).

Grazing hits is back, and its necessary. Get used to the idea, and get some DR.

Acutally it is apparent you do not have an understanding of the AC system as it is originally intended. AC represents 2 things (which is a poor design anyway) difficulty in both hitting a target and damaging it. It predates the concept of DR by a quite a long time.
In your example someone with chain is going to be likely to be damaged less I agree but the person not wearing it is less likely to be hit at all. If they both have the same AC then it is a ballance of either they were not hit or the armour protected them.

If you want a system that encourages Heavy armour then reward it, do not penalise those who do not wear it. Adding a significant passive DR to both light/medium and Heavy armour (with increasing bonuses) as well as passive DR to shields would be a far better concept then the poorly thought out grazing hit system.

I do however agree that a solution was needed for both armour wearing AC toons and shield users, however I strongly believe the wrong solution was chosen.

[Lewcipher]

Look. Show_me. I'm never sure what you're talking about. Glazing hits? I'm trying to figure out if you're talking about grazing hits, glancing blows, or some weird combination of the two that you're mashing together for argument's sake.

They added grazing hits because it offered a way for players and monsters to work down high ac opponents. Ever tried meleeing the vampire in house P while level appropriate on elite? It's insane without grazing him.

Made me think of Glazing Donuts. Now I'm hungry!

[Cyiwin]

I'm glad this thread finally gained substance.

I didn't like the grazing hit idea at first either. During my first year of play I made a habit of trying to get a real high AC at the expense of a lot of other things. I used to min max a lot more than I do now. IMO the grazing hits have made the game better because they give a much needed emphasis on DR - it's not just a waste of a slot/feat/enhancement anymore. It also helps discourage min maxing.

If you don't like this addition is it because you can't stand still and swing away as an untouchable melee? If the game is more of a challenge now maybe that could be a good thing?

[Show_me_the_Platinum]

I'm glad this thread finally gained substance.

I didn't like the grazing hit idea at first either. During my first year of play I made a habit of trying to get a real high AC at the expense of a lot of other things. I used to min max a lot more than I do now. IMO the grazing hits have made the game better because they give a much needed emphasis on DR - it's not just a waste of a slot/feat/enhancement anymore. It also helps discourage min maxing.

If you don't like this addition is it because you can't stand still and swing away as an untouchable melee? If the game is more of a challenge now maybe that could be a good thing?

There was never suppose to be an emphasis on DR. The highest DR you could get in PnP is 5/- and 10/magic (I had forgotten about monk). The rest had 3/- or 5/magic from armor and or shield. In DDO anything can have a DR of 5/something easily from an item. And WF can have 11/ady

DR was never meant to be a staple, it was meant to be "unique"

[RobbinB]

Grazing hits makes sense because you dodge most hits completely and avoid most of them from being a telling blow. Sure, you get hit you still mostly dodged it. As Eladrin said when he introduced grazing hits, this is just a (prolongation) perversion of the unavoidable hit on a natural 20. Now, on a natural 10 or more, your opponent gets lucky and you get "scratched" which deals less meaningful amount of damage than a full hit.

The imagery is pretty clear if you know what "grazing" means.

No, the imagery doesn't make any sense at all. My super-speedy high dex high wis couldn't-dps-a-fly halfling monk should not be getting grazed on a 10, that's 50% of the time. Also, for mobs only hitting a str based wf or dwarf monk with ac 65 on a 20, now hitting for grazing blows on a 10 up should not also be hitting the ac 80 dex based halfling monk on the same 10 up, grazing blow or not. Having an ac outside the meaningful "d20 window" causes game balance issues, yes. But having a 10-pt grazing blow window that completely ignores ac is not a good solution.

Ridiculous high ac's may have unbalanced the game in certain situations and grazing blows might be an attempt at a balance fix. But conceptually they don't make logical sense.

Turbine did say that grazing hits was both to allow high AC builds to take a more reasonable amount of damage (which is not the same as "nerfing monk builds") and nerfing monk builds. If you don't believe me, just go back and read Eladrin's OP on grazing hits. he did list those two reasons.

However, those two are not the only ones.

As Eldarin also said, this will allow them to use high AC monsters without running into the problem they had with Tempest Spine. That is, fighting a monster with too much Armor Class is boring because you miss too often and see no progression for your action. With the implementation of grazing hits, the difference between missing and hitting is less noticeable which solves this problem.

The fact that it is so rare to miss at end game does not undermine this position but rather supports it: unless the DDO developer are too stupid to realize that monsters have an AC so low that we always hit, there has to be a reason as to why their Armor Class is so low for so long.

Finally, you seem to have missed the part where Eladrin mention that the to-hit complaints where low level ones predating Korthos.

Sorry, but I just don't buy the whole exit-survey thing. Even a gimped wizard using a non-proficient weapon can hit low level mobs a fairly reasonable percent of the time. I find it hard to believe that there is a statistically significant number of people claiming that a major factor that they are leaving game is that the aren't hitting mobs on nearly every swing. And if they are saying that, should we really be catering to them, when we know how perverted DDO really is with respect to ease of hitting mobs at end-game?

Before Korthos, it was not that rare to run into a monster with Armor Class so high that your lowbie could not hit it half the time. As Eladrin said, they addressed that with Korthos by lowering the monsters' AC but that was more of a temporary solution as they want to-hit to matter
I would say it was very rare indeed, and when it did occur in a few cases it was a wonderful time to actually apply some use of tactics. Why do we have destruction and sundering weapons and shields and bows and the intimidate skill? .

Responses in green.

[ddaedelus]

There was never suppose to be an emphasis on DR. The highest DR you could get in PnP is 5/- and 10/magic (I had forgotten about monk). The rest had 3/- or 5/magic from armor and or shield. In DDO anything can have a DR of 5/something easily from an item. And WF can have 11/ady

DR was never meant to be a staple, it was meant to be "unique"

In PnP there were also never creatures/players with ACs in the 50+ range. I believe we've burned out the "was never meant to be" line of argument long, long ago (as in, say, three years ago).

Honestly until this thread, not ever having a high level character, I was wondering how the game was going to deal with the spread I was already starting to see between attack values and AC. The fact that attacks are based on a random roll of 5% increments means that the spread had the potential to become very significant at the higher end of the spectrum. To me, glazing blows seems like a completely reasonable and working solution.

And it reminds me of donuts.

[Borror0]

No, the imagery doesn't make any sense at all. My super-speedy high dex high wis couldn't-dps-a-fly halfling monk should not be getting grazed on a 10

Totally arbitrary. If the rules says that a monk will gets graze at least some of the time, then he does. Period.

Don't use your preconceived notion that he should not be hit. Instead, try to picture what the fight would look like. I'm sure you can do it.

Even a gimped wizard using a non-proficient weapon can hit low level mobs a fairly reasonable percent of the time.

Did you even play pre-Module 8 Elite content that was not end game?

I find it hard to believe that there is a statistically significant number of people claiming that a major factor that they are leaving game is that the aren't hitting mobs on nearly every swing.

Good, they are not. They are saying that they mind missing too often. That's because standing in place while pressing your right mouse button and seeing the monster's HP not drop being you keep having misses is not particularly fun; neither is trying to "hit and run" the monster but only getting misses.

If the problem was that they could not hit on every hit, grazing hits would not have the form it has today.

And if they are saying that, should we really be catering to them, when we know how perverted DDO really is with respect to ease of hitting mobs at end-game?

How easy it is to hit monsters at end game is a good reasons to add grazing hits. I already said so in the post you quoted, were you paying attention?