Epic DQ Raid Completed

[Jonny_D]

Glad to see you guys met my wife.

But seriously, from talking to people who were either in the quest or discussing it with someone who was while running other quests. It sounds like she is too fast and bazerkie (yes I know that isn't a word or spelled correctly). Once she triggered into "bazerkie" mode (sorry, starting to love that word), people start dropping faster than could be kept up with, so your lines became rows of corpses.

At least that's how I heard it. If you look at the group that attempted it, you would be hard pressed to find better players on their builds, so Epic is, well, epic.

I just wish the loot was also...

for the record i am a horrible wizard all i did on that run was spam spells drink mana pots and abuse Tot's healing skills and personal pot stack

Great work fellas!

Tot, I know you're a top notch cleric, but what exactly were the tactics you guys used?

I can see this quest being not as bad as the story here so far, possibly (obviously, I wasn't there so I can't tell for sure).

I'm sure you guys remember the old DQ strategy. Two groups, split clerics, casters, and melees evenly. Melees post up in front of casters and clerics, clerics on mass cure duty, and Arcanes bring the DPS. Bounce her aggro back and forth, and don't actually let her get close to you.

Is there any reason that strategy wouldn't work?

one more thing, i don't think the old melees hold the line in two group strategy would work. we grouped up on our 2nd attempt and the blades in addition to the efreeti DBFs wiped us. there was only one left in about 2 seconds. the efreeti are fairly sick now unless you kite them around, one at a time they're fine, but in a group it's intense

The strategy I would choose for this quest with perfect party make up.


3 heal specc'd high HP FVS (pref the race that gets unlimited searing light) each picking a corner of a triangle at a pillar for a base
3 ice savant sorcs to go on the pillars
3 rangers w/ capstone high HP and the UMD to use raise dead scrolls and stay with the FVS at their pillar

1 High HP Bladebarrier specc'd cleric to roam and kite trash effriti's

1 Shield using Evasion Paladin with high AC/HP/intim/healscrolls and ressurection scroll umd who manages agro and gets trash into BB of the cleric and possibly helps control the queen a bit (not likely)

1 high HP full songed out bard (sp song/ac song/max song duration and number prefered)
or
1 AC Monk with SP buff who would be the spotter communicator to the group

With 3 static teams hopefully 2 will be alive at all times to keep DOTs (DPS is not the issue in epic, its sustained damage over time that counts) up and raise the other dead members and quite possibly agro ping pong the queen between the groups. Meanwhile cleric is self sufficient kiting trash and pally bard/monk are there for emergency support.
If every member has evasion it would be better. I see a 5 mana pot buy in for every member minimum (60 pots seems light)
The final 10 percent will always be bedlam unless there is an effective way to control her freaky agro/speed

[totmacher]

I think the only thing that's not really taken into account is the number of resources used. turbine obviously wants this to be a challenge but not so much that an inordinate amount of resources should be used. so there is a balance they have to strike there, between completable and re-doable (for tokens). we had to use more cause we were old copies, undergeared, not a full group, not everyone on their primary toon, etc etc. i think in time it will still be a challenge but the resource consumption will be moderate to say the least (probably on the order of elite tod right now)

also, one thing which we haven't mentioned, which deserves to be mentioned, is that we used a res shrine from a djiini cake. without that djiini cake we wouldn't have got the resses at the end and wiped. we didn't even realize we had one until about 10 seconds before we talked to the queen. i wouldn't be surprised if this was nerfed before next update, but who knows

trust me, it was a hard slogfest. we were all exhausted at the end and pretty much called it a night. it was not easy by any stretch of the imagination and will take a great effort i think to get below 50 pots total raid usage for any given filled party

[NXPlasmid]

I am not trying to minimize your accomplishment I just want to fail a heck of a whole lot .

whatever. put out or shut up until you've completed it. making critical statements and then saying "oh I don't do beta", is lame.

[Bunker]

whatever. put out or shut up until you've completed it. making critical statements and then saying "oh I don't do beta", is lame.

Looks like a lot of fun. Grats on the Raid and the Loots.

P.S. I don't do beta.

[HeavenlyCloud]

Are the other 2 parts unbound? Or is one unbound and one bind to account.

Just thinking of seeing upgraded items is all.

Scrolls unbound, other 2 parts bound to account.

[NXPlasmid]

Looks like a lot of fun. Grats on the Raid and the Loots.

P.S. I don't do beta.

you didn't post critical comments either.

[Bunker]

you didn't post critical comments either.

For 2 reason:

1. It is beta. No need to be critical about something I have not seen myself. I already see peeps talking about resources that will be required and to me that is kind of goofy. It still might change before it goes live and as past experience of other raids has shown us, anything that took crazy amounts of resourses the first few times will require none or next to none in a short time post live release.

2. This is the achievement section. IMO, critical comments are great in the proper spot.

edit: #3. I don't do beta. Bwhahaha.

[maddmatt70]

you didn't post critical comments either.

I did not post critical comments either. I want an epic challenge. Tot et all addressed some of my concerns on the matter.

Whoever you are who cares just another flamer.

[MDS_Geist]

Its Epic but yet is beatable with 8 people on the first attempt. Epic should not be so easy. I want a challenge.

Eight experienced people working to completion beyond a point when many would have given up. Respectfully, neither of us is in a position to claim it was "easy" or "hard" since we weren't in the raid.

[Tulsa_Doom]

Im with Norg on this one, its dissappointing that a small group of ppl were able to complete epic on their fourth or fifth attempt. That NXPlasmid is not a slight towards the party who completed but rather a commentary of the weak sauce that is epic. Epic should be tougher.

[Jonny_D]

Way to go Aussie!!!
Lead in the death count. She probably killed herself a couple of times as she saw others getting close. <That is something she has been known to do.>

/ahem.... I had 37 deaths, and I believe u should give credit where credit is due, I also had the kill shot.... FIRST EPIC RAID BOSS SLAYER EVAR!!!!!! I deserve a title

Perhaps the Devs should increase the difficulty of this raid. It looks like without a full party and mod 9 gear this group completed this raid on the first attempt. Sounds kind of easy when you look at things from that perspective.

Its Epic but yet is beatable with 8 people on the first attempt. Epic should not be so easy. I want a challenge.

@ Maddmat the words of Talahassee convey my message to you

I do not believe in playing on the test server other then to test something highly mechanical like Dungeon Alerts or Grazing Hits. The vast majority of my friends and guildies feel the same way about playing on test servers other then Dark-Star(Clean). I do not have a level 20 regardless on the test server. I probably should not have read this thread anyway, but curiousity what can you say.

Well 12 people would really help. That is more people that can damage the demon queen or keep people up one way or the other. I agree with aspenor that some sort of split group set up would be helpful especially for the healers when you get up to 12 people. I am not trying to minimize your accomplishment I just want to fail a heck of a whole lot .

4th attempt, or 5th, i don't remember

towards the end, it was probably the hardest thing i've ever done in this game 50ms reactions count and no-ff jump was essential to completion. if you have a cleric that means something

also, casters and cleric had tons of pots and no reason to not use them

come over and do it then. it's a fairly large challenge and i believe will keep most (unless some sort of miracle/bugged strat is made, like the last DQ) challenged to even complete

I think the only thing that's not really taken into account is the number of resources used. turbine obviously wants this to be a challenge but not so much that an inordinate amount of resources should be used. so there is a balance they have to strike there, between completable and re-doable (for tokens). we had to use more cause we were old copies, undergeared, not a full group, not everyone on their primary toon, etc etc. i think in time it will still be a challenge but the resource consumption will be moderate to say the least (probably on the order of elite tod right now)

also, one thing which we haven't mentioned, which deserves to be mentioned, is that we used a res shrine from a djiini cake. without that djiini cake we wouldn't have got the resses at the end and wiped. we didn't even realize we had one until about 10 seconds before we talked to the queen. i wouldn't be surprised if this was nerfed before next update, but who knows

trust me, it was a hard slogfest. we were all exhausted at the end and pretty much called it a night. it was not easy by any stretch of the imagination and will take a great effort i think to get below 50 pots total raid usage for any given filled party

The only thing that needs toning is the damage the DBF's of the efreeti the speed of the queen when she goes "scorned woman" on us at the end. With so many blades coupled with DBF evasion is pretty much a requirement on 50% of the party imo. A 7-10 pot buy in from all members and a little luck should make this raid reasonably doable with a full party with 4 healers and 3 casters and 4-5 melee with ranged capabilities and decent hp, self sufficency. It wont be home run every try and 7 mana pots per person a run is not cheap, but it is sustainable by the best players (clear the orchard and the vale a few times and you will get enough for a run I bet). It will be a bit of a grind to get enough tokens (15) to craft 1 raid token item/weapon.

But I guess if one looks at it like this 7 pots per run x 15 runs = 105. 105 +49 (7 failed attempts using all pots) = 154 mana pots per person to get a piece of epic gear with a +7 enhancement on it its worth it.

I dont think the cake shrine should be coded out of the raid. There are a finite amount of cakes on the servers, not enough to guarantee instant win, which it doesnt. The cake allowed us to complete way undermanned at a huge resource cost.

This quest was the most challenge combined with fun I have ever had in DDO, more than beating the old Abbot. Somethings have been more challenging, but way less fun, others have been just as fun, but less challenging. The goal should be to have fun, but not make it too easy so far I think they have made a great attempt at it... if they made it too easy at least they have 40 days (15 completions x 2.75 days) to fix it before anyone can craft an epic token item, Although I think its more on the too hard side of the pendulum, than on the too easy side.

[totmacher]

Eight experienced people working to completion beyond a point when many would have given up. Respectfully, neither of us is in a position to claim it was "easy" or "hard" since we weren't in the raid.

i agree with this. this was way harder than tod, which i was a cleric on for the first completion as well. on gimped toons with the same crutches (just resources).

i wouldn't judge the validity of epic until you try it out. the quests, the pre-raid and the raid are insanely something different than what you all are expecting. the zerg philosophy is dead in there, it is more wow-like. trash-pull, rinse, repeat. the epic raid doesn't even compare to other raids that have been done because of the reflex speed in addition to the number of deaths. it's more about skill than anything else (and the pots, pots, pots)

[totmacher]

thinking about this more, i begin to hate mana pots more even though i have used to so many. they should have never been added to the game, they scale the healing dynamic outwards and take away from some of the manual skill involved

[Zaal]

thinking about this more, i begin to hate mana pots more even though i have used to so many. they should have never been added to the game, they scale the healing dynamic outwards and take away from some of the manual skill involved

That's really a good point.

Something else also that interests me is that by what, death ten, all yours (and most of your parties) gear is busted beyond use and yet you were still able to finish this?

Something just doesn't see right about this... not flaming you skills... instead focused on being able to complete an Epic quest without gear...

[Jonny_D]

Im with Norg on this one, its dissappointing that a small group of ppl were able to complete epic on their fourth or fifth attempt. That NXPlasmid is not a slight towards the party who completed but rather a commentary of the weak sauce that is epic. Epic should be tougher.

That win would not have happened on live servers with real mana pots. The combo of unlimited resources and unlimited rezzes combined with experience players who did not care if their gear was destroyed. I personally went through 2 complete docents, + all of my regualar gear was all damaged beyond equipping 10k pp repair bill with lotsa of perma damage. If they make it too hard noone will run it ever after their first completion.

The problem with recycled quests is that there is no puzzle or tactic/trick to figure out how to beat the quest. It is simply a matter of Attrition. People who have the RL $ to buy mana pots from the store and rez cakes (same as birthday cake rez shrine) the quests will be beat right away, with in the first week. I like the challenge and the work is well done, and needs to be done for cost effectiveness of the content, but I would rather see new epic challenge content that has never been seen before. Epic content is the resourse drain that is required in a Monty Hall campaign like DDO.

One requirement I think that should be made is that the flagging quests should all have to be be done atleast once on epic before being allowed to advance to the raid.

[Jonny_D]

thinking about this more, i begin to hate mana pots more even though i have used to so many. they should have never been added to the game, they scale the healing dynamic outwards and take away from some of the manual skill involved

Totally agree. Especially since you can buy them. As my most reent post said its all about attrition and $ now. Everyone wins of they have enough $ or stocked up resources. I personally have enough manna pots to to get prolly 3 or 4 epic raid 15 token items with out buying any.

[totmacher]

That's really a good point.

Something else also that interests me is that by what, death ten, all yours (and most of your parties) gear is busted beyond use and yet you were still able to finish this?

Something just doesn't see right about this... not flaming you skills... instead focused on being able to complete an Epic quest without gear...

my first death came about 8 minutes before the end. i only died a couple of times relative to everyone else but it was because we were frantically trying to finish it. my gear thankfully did not all break as that would've messed me up. i was walking around with 250 hp or so, so surviving the blades and spamming heals on myself was tough

[totmacher]

Totally agree. Especially since you can buy them. As my most reent post said its all about attrition and $ now. Everyone wins of they have enough $ or stocked up resources. I personally have enough manna pots to to get prolly 3 or 4 epic raid 15 token items with out buying any.

yeah, it's bad when the expectation becomes you need mana pots to complete a raid. and then you have exhausted all your "unbound" ones so where do you go? the store. it leads to what appears to be a slimy development cycle if they create raids where out-of-pocket resources are expected to be used. basically making us "buy" raid loot

[NXPlasmid]

Whoever you are who cares just another flamer.

Nobody, another player with an opinion, just like you.

[Zaal]

my first death came about 8 minutes before the end. i only died a couple of times relative to everyone else but it was because we were frantically trying to finish it. my gear thankfully did not all break as that would've messed me up. i was walking around with 250 hp or so, so surviving the blades and spamming heals on myself was tough

Break in the sense that every time you die, your gear loses what, 10% of it's current quest life usability so that after 10 deaths (or whatever), your gear is unusable - what you're wearing / weilding of course.

To complete an Epic quest virtually naked and perhaps without weapons is , well, I don't even think 'unbalanced' is the right word.