High Level Weapon Choices?

[arminius]

I love paladins. I'm especially happy with the KotC enhancement series, which helps out paladin endgame dps to an astonishing degree. So, I have 3 paladins, one almost level 20, and two level 17's.

The almost-level-20 uses khopeshes. Noooo problemo. However, one level 17 leans toward warhammers and greatswords, while the other leans toward scimitars and heavy picks.

I've noticed on the almost-level-20 that almost all the time I use either the Greensteel holy-acid-acid dual tier III khopesh on trash or the Holy Sword khopesh for the devils. Everything else except the occasional vorpal or greater bane has cobwebs on it.

Both characters have negligible AC, average HP (will prob end up 470-500+ at level 20 give or take), no possibility of TWF feats, and no feats for THF. All use Divine Sacrifice when practical. So it is really a choice between staying one handed with Holy Sword/Greensteel of warhammer or scimitar, getting the khopesh feat only for use with the Holy Sword/Greensteel, or doing Holy Sword/Greensteel TH weapons.

So my questions are:

1. Do you think it is worth it to use a feat to get khopesh just for Holy Sword/Greensteel use and nothing else, given that those two weapons cover so much end game content? If I didn't spend the feat on that, I probably would have just gone with another Toughness anyway.

2. If I went two-handed (since I don't have high AC anyway), is that worth it without the corresponding feats? Presumably it would be greatsword for the Holy Sword and greataxe for the Greensteel? Now that the greatswords have been sped up to match the greataxe, how does their DPS compare with greataxe now?

If it was a pure math decision, then khopesh or THF would win easily over warhammer or scimitar. Here are some of the cons though:

Con for THF: Not crazy about losing a sheild vs trash mobs, against whom a non-uber AC can still matter. And the Greensteel Mineral greataxe is practically uniform issue.
Con for Khopesh: Oh, look, a paladin with a khopesh. <yawn> Bored now. Wake me later, k?
Con for Khopesh: Despite the fact that at the moment I use Holy Sword/Greensteel the vast majority of the time, it just seems a waste to blow a whole feat for the sake of two weapons. And future mods could bring surprises against which Holy Sword/Greensteel might be useless.
Con for Khopesh: If I did want to start collecting other khopeshes, it is the most expensive weapon type except rapiers, and rapiers are just insane.

Really the "everybody's got either a khopesh or greataxe" reason is the one that makes me most hesitant. However, I've seen the numbers and they really are better than anything else, so I am torn. What think ye?

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[Junts]

If your ac is negligile, you should use greensteel falchions, holy sword greatswords a decent substitute

there's no reason to use a weapon and shield if your armor class isn't worthwhile; two handers are substantially better damage if you lack the dex for two weapon

Falchions will maximize the power of smite evil and divine sacrifice.

There are no holy sword falchions, so a greensteel mineral2 falchion would be a great investment.

[arminius]

Oh that is good to know, I hadn't thought about falchion. Am so used to the "they have slower animations" problem that has plagued us for so long that my mind had just edited those suckers right out of being in contention. Am glad to know that they have caught up.

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[Rheebus]

yeah, drop the board. While a little dr is nice, you only get it when shield blocking, which you aren't doing if you are swinging those pretty khopeshes. Get a big gun and swing!

Rheebus

[Jonny_D]

yup, if you arent using a shield thf is the way to go. just keep a holysword scimy handy for when you pop on your shield. What race are your characters? Vorpals in the hands of a KotC are a straight up dps weapon, especially the +3 or better of PG (especially before the capstone) or ideal +1 vorpal of greater evil outsider bane for the lvl 20 pure pally

[arminius]

I am using the Weapon Comparison Tool and it is showing the Greensteel Maul beating everything, including Greensteel Greataxe, Greatsword, and Falchion (all Pos-Min-Min/Pos as described above, and with both improved crit bludgeoning and slashing, which my pallies have).

Is that right? Or is that an anomaly with the tool, or it's that I'm not using the tool right? Why do I see the masses with Greensteel greataxes dripping acid and not Greensteel mauls?

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[Junts]

I am using the Weapon Comparison Tool and it is showing the Greensteel Maul beating everything, including Greensteel Greataxe, Greatsword, and Falchion (all Pos-Min-Min/Pos as described above, and with both improved crit bludgeoning and slashing, which my pallies have).

Is that right? Or is that an anomaly with the tool, or it's that I'm not using the tool right? Why do I see the masses with Greensteel greataxes dripping acid and not Greensteel mauls?

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The comparison tool isnt accurate about swing rates anymore.

[arminius]

The comparison tool isnt accurate about swing rates anymore.

But I am running it at Damage Per Swing, not Damage Per Second, so swing rates shouldn't come into play, right? I just can't figure out why maul stands out as a clear winner, and greataxe/greatsword/falchion are almost identical, given the way Greensteel greataxes seem to be so popular, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone with a Greensteel maul.

But I get the point above about how the falchion crit range itself will help to maximize Divine Sacrifice and Smites. I wish the falchion got an extra Greensteel die like greataxe and greatsword do, that would make it an easier choice...

EDIT: Hmm, I am running it again and now it is showing Falchion as the clear winner again, over Maul. I don't know what I was doing wrong before. User error? Never mind.

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[arminius]

I tried going 2 handed full time last night with New Invasion and Genesis Point, and wasn't particularly happy with the results. In comparison with a sheild, was definitely taking a lot more hits. Never felt so squishy.

Are you guys SURE that AC in the 40's and buffed to low 50's is really so, so, so pointless? Or do you mean that it is only pointless against bosses and red names?

Or is it that my doing more damage made more aggro come to me, and all this time in the past where I wasn't taking massive damage it was just because I wasn't getting the mobs' attention? Not sure if that is a positive thing to change.... Getting a rep as a squishy mana sponge is far worse imho than not being able to eke out max damage. Only I see my damage numbers, but everyone sees my HP bar bounce like a yo yo.....

Help please! I need to make a decision soon, and it is going to have to stick. Feats are extremely expensive to change out now, and I haven't got the time to grind multiple Greensteel weapons per character, especially now that the Shroud appears to be run much less than in the past.

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[SteeleTrueheart]

Or is it that my doing more damage made more aggro come to me, and all this time in the past where I wasn't taking massive damage it was just because I wasn't getting the mobs' attention?

This is probably the reason. Also in those quests you will find that the multiple mobs do aoe damage (cleaves) at the same time and people take a lot of damage.

While KotC means you are able to chew through the devils and demons etc Reeeaally well. Don't lose sight of the fact that your great saves makes you the spellcaster killer. Take out the clerics and spellthrowers ASAP. Then kill the devils etc one at a time and tackle them from the edge, dont get in the middle of them where there aoe damage will stack on you.

Hopefully you have enough UMD to think about using shield wands. You use bark potions if no ranger in your party giving it out, your caster friend is giving you displacement/blur etc. Damage mitigation can be so much better than HP soaking

Not sure if that is a positive thing to change.... Getting a rep as a squishy mana sponge is far worse imho than not being able to eke out max damage. Only I see my damage numbers, but everyone sees my HP bar bounce like a yo yo.....

Guaranteed the Barb in your party is probably taking the same amount of damage as you, if not more. It is only that his HP bar doesn't change as much (comparatively).

Worried about mana sponge reputation? Collect greater mana pots as you play, when a cleric has done a lot of healing during a quest (noticeable) drop him/her a couple of heal scrolls and 1-2 mana pots and say thanks for healing me.

I have had the same issues with my TWF alt, but I still manage to get groups, (probably because I am so generous with mana pots).

[arminius]

This is probably the reason. Also in those quests you will find that the multiple mobs do aoe damage (cleaves) at the same time and people take a lot of damage.

While KotC means you are able to chew through the devils and demons etc Reeeaally well. Don't lose sight of the fact that your great saves makes you the spellcaster killer. Take out the clerics and spellthrowers ASAP. Then kill the devils etc one at a time and tackle them from the edge, dont get in the middle of them where there aoe damage will stack on you.

Hopefully you have enough UMD to think about using shield wands. You use bark potions if no ranger in your party giving it out, your caster friend is giving you displacement/blur etc. Damage mitigation can be so much better than HP soaking

Guaranteed the Barb in your party is probably taking the same amount of damage as you, if not more. It is only that his HP bar doesn't change as much (comparatively).

Worried about mana sponge reputation? Collect greater mana pots as you play, when a cleric has done a lot of healing during a quest (noticeable) drop him/her a couple of heal scrolls and 1-2 mana pots and say thanks for healing me.

I have had the same issues with my TWF alt, but I still manage to get groups, (probably because I am so generous with mana pots).

Great suggestions on both the tactics and the mana pots. I think one of the things that is happening is that when you try to fight on the periphery in those quests, the devils teleport and what you thought was the periphery is now the middle.

Also, I am using the Shield spell when I remember it. My main is a X/1 Paladin/Sorc, and has Shield as the first level Sorc spell. Two minutes with extend, and practically free given how many SP the character has. I just need to remember to cast it more. EDIT: this also of course means that I can use the Shield wands of any level, and Blur and Stoneskin wands of every level too. Displacement is only on scrolls, right? Not enough UMD, at least until the Greater Reincarnate.

I did decide to go with the greensteel falchion on my main, and while I'm leaning toward the khopesh proficiency on the other paladin, I will wait a bit to see how the falchion turns out. The greensteel falchion looks very cartoonish. It looks like something out of WoW. Maybe it is a cross-game item, in the spirit of inter-game cooperation. ;-) But oh well, goofy-looking or no, I'm married to it now....

(that's what she said)

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[Junts]

I tried going 2 handed full time last night with New Invasion and Genesis Point, and wasn't particularly happy with the results. In comparison with a sheild, was definitely taking a lot more hits. Never felt so squishy.

Are you guys SURE that AC in the 40's and buffed to low 50's is really so, so, so pointless? Or do you mean that it is only pointless against bosses and red names?

Or is it that my doing more damage made more aggro come to me, and all this time in the past where I wasn't taking massive damage it was just because I wasn't getting the mobs' attention? Not sure if that is a positive thing to change.... Getting a rep as a squishy mana sponge is far worse imho than not being able to eke out max damage. Only I see my damage numbers, but everyone sees my HP bar bounce like a yo yo.....

Help please! I need to make a decision soon, and it is going to have to stick. Feats are extremely expensive to change out now, and I haven't got the time to grind multiple Greensteel weapons per character, especially now that the Shroud appears to be run much less than in the past.

_

ac in that range won't help you in either of those quests; to have your ac help you against the orthons in genesis point, it needs to be around 60, and for the barbazu, around 70. Everyone gets torn up by the melee in those quests.

[arminius]

I tried the sparkly new greensteel Min II falchion last night, and at first it was hard to tell how much damage it was really putting out because everything kept being one-shotted (!). I think the first 15 hits must have been crits. I think the verdict might be: i <3 greensteel falchion with the fixed animation swing speeds.

On the other paladin I tried dual weilding khopeshes, which I had avoided up to now because I thought the to hit penalty would be too great. Well, hubba hubba. I guess in situations where the to hit penalty is too great I can return to sword and board, but the way the demons in the Hound reacted as though they were stuffed through a cuisinart on frappe, that is just what my dps-starved pallies need. If I find that I am missing a lot, I can try for a light weapon in the off hand, but I haven't found myself missing a lot yet, so we'll see. A light Holy Sword weapon is a cheap and great way to experiment.

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