How are clerics supposed to cope with epic quests?

[quintuss]

Im thinking 400 silverflame favor will be a must for melee... If u have to ask epic probably isnt for you

Well, epic IS for me, since i'm bored again already and i'm fond of nice loot.
The only problem i have is that atm it's easier for me to solo stuff than to group in a pug.
It's actually easier on my ressources and thats a very bad thing imho since this game should be all about grouping.
And soloing would be VERY hard to do in epic content.

[Guder]

3 ToD hard completes on my cleric all 3 pugs I joined. Resources used as follows:
1) 1 pot 7 scrolls
2) 1 pot
3) 0 of anything

Edit: Note they were pugs where I saw some good names involved. So pugish in they were not guild specific

Please, would someone discuss the method in which the end fight strategy used required you as a, I am assuming primary and not 3rd, 4th or more clerics or something such, Healer to not need resources beyond your regular mana pool?

I have heard of some group's discussions being centered on the dps of a hammer vs. dagger? How is this an interesting conversation? about how long would you say those runs took to complete the end fight?

I am not sure what brings this to mind but I just read an interesting quote:
Serve a man a fish and he will eat for a meal. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

Show a man how to 'range a fish' with dynomite and not only will he kill the entire lake and brag about how 'many he got', 'how easy it is', and 'how wonderful a fisherman he has become' but he will also teach his technique to any weak-minded PUG and tell them this is the 'WAY'.

[quintuss]

Please, would someone discuss the method in which the end fight strategy used required you as a, I am assuming primary and not 3rd, 4th or more clerics or something such, Healer to not need resources beyond your regular mana pool?

I have heard of some group's discussions being centered on the dps of a hammer vs. dagger? How is this an interesting conversation? about how long would you say those runs took to complete the end fight?

I am not sure what brings this to mind but I just read an interesting quote:
Serve a man a fish and he will eat for a meal. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.

Show a man how to 'range a fish' with dynomite and not only will he kill the entire lake and brag about how 'many he got', 'how easy it is', and 'how wonderful a fisherman he has become' but he will also teach his technique to any weak-minded PUG and tell them this is the 'WAY'.

I fail to understand what you are trying to say here.

[Guder]

I fail to understand what you are trying to say here.

The answer to your opening post, Quintuss, is that better/stronger/cheaper potions/scrolls/spells should be added to the game to offset the increase in hitpoints, boss damage and 'grazings'.
Just as a general example, if we had mundane use of say- 'cure critical wounds' pots or 'Heal' pots- other than the same 'cure serious wounds' pots- at level 20(when a tank has 500-600 or more hps and a csw pot heals 25hps-5%) that we used to solo 'caged trolls' at level 6(when you could heal 25% of your 100 hps with 1 csw pot) then the costs to you (as an end-game cleric) could be much, much, much lower.
If/Then, (with lower costs to complete high level raids): Good strategies, good teamwork, well-built toons, well-played quests, etc. could be justly rewarded instead of being disadvantaged over other techniques of questing.
In short...it's about taking 'short-cuts' and using the 'easy button' versus truely learning to excel and master a game.
Did you ever play 'Risk' using the 'atom bomb' option? It kinda took the strategy out of the game... but sure made it go alot faster!


EDIT: just to clarify my position...I have learned and believe that anything in life that comes too easily is either illegal/immoral/wrong or just plain no fun...gimme a pocketknife, canteen and drop me off..if I don't come out again you can sleep soundly knowing I gave it a huge effort, went down trying and loved every minute of it...but not once did I hop up on a stump and fling rocks at a bear...because in the real world that bear would've stuffed me under some branches for a snack later in the week.

[Jonny_D]

Well, epic IS for me, since i'm bored again already and i'm fond of nice loot.
The only problem i have is that atm it's easier for me to solo stuff than to group in a pug.
It's actually easier on my ressources and thats a very bad thing imho since this game should be all about grouping.
And soloing would be VERY hard to do in epic content.

wasnt implying epic was not for you. was speaking to any melee that dont have 400 silverflame favor. a good starting point for people that want to run epic is to have seen and beaten the majority of content in the game, for example unlocking the 400 silverflame favor.

As to your being bored and fondness for nice loot... and soloing. You come off as abrasive and demanding of things to go your way without putting in the effort or resources to get the reward. this maybe affecting the quality of groups you are getting... as noone enjoys running with someone who has a sense of entitlement. if u cant find good people to run with through shavarath normal with out burning through resources, then sadly epic is probably not for you at this point.

I along with most of my friends and guildies are looking forward to having something worthwhile to spend our resources on as we see it as an investment and challenge, to fill the time between updates.

[Barumar]

Epic Clerics will deal with Epic Quests just fine. The rest shouldn't be there.

Just like Elite Clerics deal with Elite Quests with Elite Party Members just fine now.

Fixed that for you

It is all about the players in your party - and why I rarely PUG my Cleric!

I do Raid her outside my Guild, but mostly with Raid leaders I know.

Barumar

[Kalari]

To the Op sorry about your issues with the new stuff. Wont lie till I found my groove and my normal group found what worked in those quests it was supply intensive specially scrolls and the like. But now when we go in we know which quests vorpals work in, which sneaking and pulling aggro slowly is best for and which crowd control spells to use. I found even when im not healing that it makes it easier on the healer for the group to stick together fight in small waves and keep as many buffs against damage specially stone skin which helps with dr and displacements up and going.

As for Epic I look forward to seeing it because I was lucky to find smart players who look out for one and other. Pugging has left a bad taste in my mouth at low to mid levels so there is no way id pug the latest stuff (no dont consider running with a whole guild of other players pugging either hehe) hate to say it but you may have to find yourself a static group for this stuff that works well together.

[quintuss]

You come off as abrasive and demanding of things to go your way without putting in the effort or resources to get the reward. this maybe affecting the quality of groups you are getting... as noone enjoys running with someone who has a sense of entitlement. if u cant find good people to run with through shavarath normal with out burning through resources, then sadly epic is probably not for you at this point.

I along with most of my friends and guildies are looking forward to having something worthwhile to spend our resources on as we see it as an investment and challenge, to fill the time between updates.

Alright... hmm i don't know how to answer this.. maybe i worded my posts wrong since english is not my native language but i think you missunderstood me.

I don't demand anything. I just said that with pugs where i need to use 10+ pots to keep a group from wiping and have to carry people in my backpack coz they had been ressed so often that they had only 80hp left, i just can't afford to do more than one run in amrath once in a while. I do solo stuff a lot now to get the loot i need to buy pots/scrolls for further amrath questing and i was really asking myself how clerics like me will be able to support groups in epic desert quests.

I am not one who thinks he's entitled to anything without effort or ressources. In fact i happily ran the desert a few hundret times to get my first bloodstone and i did not complain although time is by far my most precious ressource.

You may have a guild that runs those quests regularly. I just pug them and it seems that rarely anyone in those groups gives a **** about the cleric using all his ressources while they just enjoy the ride.

@Kalari: I would like to do those quests in a static group, maybe i just need to give it more time since i'm not very comfortable with getting to know new people over voicechat. My spoken english is not exactly uber.

@Barumar: Not pugging with your cleric is a wise decision. I only have two options atm. Pug those quests or don't do them at all, since my guild doesn't do a lot of questing there.

As i said before, i did my first ToD yesterday and it was easy and fun for me. I had like 50% sp left everytime we came to a shrine. It just seems that joining random pugs for amrath quests is not a good idea given the immense costs of pots and scrolls over time.

[sirgog]

...
I refuse to mem mass heal because it is a **** spell. (Has Turbine even fixed the only heals six people thing yet?)

Even without the 6 person bug fixed, it is STILL the most efficient healing spell Clerics have, and remains singlehandedly responsible for me, playing a low-SP melee specced cleric, no longer needing mana potions in Amrath when solohealing even mediocre PUGs.

Don't expect sympathy or donations if you run OOM without Mass Heal loaded in content that is high-level enough that you are expected to have level 9 spells.

[shdrex63]

Don't expect sympathy or donations if you run OOM without Mass Heal loaded in content that is high-level enough that you are expected to have level 9 spells.

Dont find mass heal reliable enough during abbots inferno or tod part 3, and the prehealing bit (even with quicken it is still slow) is a risk itself because the squishier members of the party might die while your waiting for your 3 second mass heal to land.
CCW,M CSW,M are still reliable and top people nicely even if they arent as cost effective as Mass Heal. (dont even carry it on my FvS only have it on cleric, its an very situational spell and only usable when i dont really need it)

Regarding the oom issue i suggest revising playstyle or not trying, for example elite A New Invasion with people you never played before, as a cleric it is your pick on the group never overextend the group's possibilities.
If you arent lucky to find some friends to play with just keep looking there are always people with the same mentality as you.

[GunboatDiplomat]

Epic is supposed to be a long need challenge for players, and some players simply aren't up to that challenge.

This is not for the casual gamer, sorry, as casuals have no place in Epic, at least not a for a long time to come.

Epic hopes to bring some new life and challenges to the upper-end of DDO players.

and there you have it. epic is beyond the reach of average. thats where it should be

Epic Clerics will deal with Epic Quests just fine. The rest shouldn't be there.

Just like Elite Clerics deal with Elite Quests just fine now.

DDO isn't rocket science or neurosurgery. You know the primary reason Player A is a much better than Player B? Player A has spent waaaayyy more time playing the game. Its not complicated, the more you play games the better you get at them. Talent doesn't really come into it the vast majority of the time, not in a qualitative way.

But hey, you want to think you're the uber players because of your innate brilliance, go right ahead

wasnt implying epic was not for you. was speaking to any melee that dont have 400 silverflame favor. a good starting point for people that want to run epic is to have seen and beaten the majority of content in the game, for example unlocking the 400 silverflame favor.

None of my melees have 400 silverflame favour because I don't like most of the quests! Hmm, I'm a 'casual' player who doesn't have 400 silverflame favor. Guess epic is not for me. Guess I couldn't handle it. Or maybe this is the reason that, as they currently stand, they're not for me:

It is taking the new path of major character progression and making it insanely expensive and tedious.

[GlassCannon]

But hey, you want to think you're the uber players because of your innate brilliance, go right ahead

TY, will do.

By the way, don't talk too loud on Voice... my master is asleep and doesn't know his cat plays DDO...

[Shade]

DDO isn't rocket science or neurosurgery. You know the primary reason Player A is a much better than Player B? Player A has spent waaaayyy more time playing the game. Its not complicated, the more you play games the better you get at them. Talent doesn't really come into it the vast majority of the time, not in a qualitative way.

Keep telling yourself that.. As long as you believe it thats what counts.

When I see players who I know played since beta repeatedly play very badly... I'll make my own judgements.

Gamer skill is a factor in DDO. A big one.

IMO, a brand new player could join this game today, and in a couple weeks of hardcore play be capped and be among the best players in the game proving to be a very valuable member on a epic quest. He may lack equipment and some practical knowledge veterans have, but high skill at the game can overcome that here. It's one of the things that makes DDO great.

[Elsbet]

Even without the 6 person bug fixed, it is STILL the most efficient healing spell Clerics have, and remains singlehandedly responsible for me, playing a low-SP melee specced cleric, no longer needing mana potions in Amrath when solohealing even mediocre PUGs.

Don't expect sympathy or donations if you run OOM without Mass Heal loaded in content that is high-level enough that you are expected to have level 9 spells.

I make it through Amrath just fine without it. It's unnecessary when my mass cures can hit for as much as the heals AND I can hit all 12 party members.

[paul1devries]

OK - i just ran ToD last night as a melee instead of as a cleric....(i posted earlier as a cleric)

A few weeks after release, people have strategies down pat and are working pretty well together and are willing to listen to suggestions...

We had myself (80+ ac guy) and another higher hit point (~500) lower ac guy both with boots.

It was almost embarrasingly easy and no resources used by the two clerics (we also had a bard with us).

My post about it being VERY difficult to not use lots of resources on hard has now been officially withdrawn - they were relevant on a first run hard basis, which is pretty much not the case for most people now.

Do you remember going into part 2 the first time? Boom you are dead...it almost makes you nostalgic about going into the new stuff after only 4 weeks (?) the new stuff has been out...

Bring on the next MOD! (and I will bet it will be very expensive for clerics......for a while - maybe i'll start new stuff with my melee instead of my cleric next time!).

Cheers

[sirgog]

I make it through Amrath just fine without it. It's unnecessary when my mass cures can hit for as much as the heals AND I can hit all 12 party members.

My MCCW heals for only slightly less than my Mass Heal when I've hit a Superior Ardor 8 clicky (those with better raidloot luck that me will not need the clicky, they'll have it permanently). But, it burns SP - 60 for Mass Heal quickened, 90-something for the MCCW.

MCCW has its place (particularly when you are not sure that party members will live 3 seconds without healing), but trust me - in scenarios where you *know* noone is dying in the next few seconds, try Mass Heal.

Even better, in Shroud 4 (particularly Elite), get 6 melees exactly on Arraetrikos, and have 2 or 3 clerics time their Mass Heals over voice so one lands every 4 (or 3) seconds.

My healing habits have totally changed since learning to use that spell - where previously if someone took damage I'd target them and prepare to throw a Heal when they take more damage, instead I target them and (if others are near them) start casting Mass Heal. Only when MH is on cooldown, the player is alone or they have less than three seconds to live, do I open with any other spell.


Some of this probably comes from my experience playing healers in WoW, where only emergency heals (which have huge mana costs or long cooldowns) resolve instantly - all other heals take time to cast, making you learn to time them correctly. (WoW also is less forgiving of overhealing; you cannot quaff lots of mana pots to make up for wasting a lot of SP)

[Elsbet]

I am capable of using it just fine, thanks. I choose not to do so because I don't like it because it is so dependent on metamagics, the patience of other players and even with quicken on, takes a ridiculously long time to cast. It is also an absurd waste of healing capacity when I am highly likely to land half of those heals for well over 1,000 hps. There isn't a toon in the game that needs that. It's a teeny tiny, itty bitty ego boost to see the numbers go off, but the gross overkill is just silly. I don't even use heal that much anymore unless I'm fixing stat damage, disease or something else at the same time.

If everyone is standing still and there is no pressing need, I have the time to evaluate the health status of every player and determine what is necessary. Why cast mass heal when one clw and one cmw will heal up the players that need it? Or use a mcmw scroll and not spend any mana at all? Or even better, give those players time to suck a pot or heal themselves, which any decent high level toon will do to conserve cleric mana for when necessary. All of my toons have self healing capacity and I always ask that clerics not heal me between fights--I'll do it myself. I'd rather they have the mana when I can't heal myself.

Anytime you have a list of qualifications for making a spell worth casting, it isn't well designed: If you run quicken; if you have time; if only six people need heals; if you can anticipate when people will take damage; if you can coordinate timing with another cleric; if there is no lag when you are trying to coordinate timing with another cleric (which never happens in the Shroud. It always lags. It just isn't as painful as it used to be.).

[Jonny_D]

DDO isn't rocket science or neurosurgery. You know the primary reason Player A is a much better than Player B? Player A has spent waaaayyy more time playing the game. Its not complicated, the more you play games the better you get at them. Talent doesn't really come into it the vast majority of the time, not in a qualitative way.
But hey, you want to think you're the uber players because of your innate brilliance, go right ahead

You know the primary reason some people are better than others? practice. Good twitch skills and a decent computer help. Having those and the ability to play a certain amount allows one to get good gear which allows them to complete more content more efficiently, excellerating the process.

None of my melees have 400 silverflame favour because I don't like most of the quests! Hmm, I'm a 'casual' player who doesn't have 400 silverflame favor. Guess epic is not for me. Guess I couldn't handle it. Or maybe this is the reason that, as they currently stand, they're not for me:

well then you have not exhausted the content of the game so epic is definately not for you. Epic is the other end of the pendulum swing in which we have seen consistent updates to low and middle range quests designed for new and casual gamers along with a small amount of end game content that offers little challenge. One of the consistent complaints in DDO is the lack of achieveable endgame challenges for power gamers. Since the storm reaver there has not been a raid not beaten in the first week of new content. Epic offers the attrition and skill challenges required by power gamers. Its not immediatly accessable for everyone. This is a good thing for the game, get over your feelings of inadequecy.

[Angelus_dead]

My healing habits have totally changed since learning to use that spell - where previously if someone took damage I'd target them and prepare to throw a Heal when they take more damage, instead I target them and (if others are near them) start casting Mass Heal.

Sounds like you don't have a Laliat necklace.

[Ereshkigal]

If you're using pots in genesis point, its time to re-assess the people you group with and your playstyle pretty drastically.

well he mentioned he was PUGging. Must be a masochist. Actually, a masochist that is in denial since he doesn't want to put his whole paycheck into the DDO store. Personally I wish he would put his whole paycheck into the DDO store as then they could grind out new content faster