battle clerics

[Kilnedric]

Not at all true.

Battle clerics (assuming a Clr18/Ftr2 level split) have their main heal spells heal for the following percentage of a Clr20's heals:

Heal: 100%
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds: 93.75%
Mass Cure Light Wounds: 92%
Mass Heal: 90%
(Whilst less often used, the other healing spells - Mass Cure Serious/Critical Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds etc all have 94.7% or better effect from a Clr18/Ftr2; the higher level Mass Cures may become more useful in future as more players get access to Superior Devotion 8 or Superior Ardor 8 or Superior Efficacy 8)

That's *all* they are behind in healing. Clr19/Pal1 builds are even higher healing.

And, with one more person doing significant melee DPS, enemies go down faster.


At present endgame, there is *no* quest where I would rather have a Ftr20 max-DPS Kensai build and a Clr20 healbot build to two equivalently geared, well built Clr18/Ftr2 builds. More melee DPS, more healing, more Bladebarriers (even if the save DC is lower than that of the healbot), more wipe prevention (two people that can cast Quickened True Resurrection).

+1 sir.

As a fairly new player myself, my opinion doesn't weigh as much as many here, but I'd like to add one thing for the OP: COMMUNICATION IS KEY.

Communicate to your group the role you are playing and the roles you expect everyone else to play. If I know I'm the "main healer", I'll play differently than if there are other healing classes in the group and nobody says anything.

[Enochroot]

I'm not so sure about that. A battlecleric isn't overly tough to play (I find my pure Monk more difficult), but it does require a few skills other characters don't.

Example: You need to be able to work out when to turn Quicken on and off. I had Quicken on about 50% of the time through the low to medium levels, but since getting the pinnacle of healing efficiency that is Mass Heal, Quicken remains on almost all the time.

You also need to have some sense of when you can and cannot survive aggro in combat.

Hm, the more I've thought about what I wrote, the more I am sure it was genius.


Building a battle cleric is FAR easier than playing one, and therefore, should be easily handled by anyone good enough to play a battlecleric.


You say it's not overly tough to play? Then why does it get such a bad rep? Evil propaganda?

[Katarrah]

If you ever come to argo look up Justaspade and we'll see if a battle cleric still sucks =p

[Enochroot]

If you ever come to argo look up Justaspade and we'll see if a battle cleric still sucks =p

Who are you even responding to?

[Tumarek]

You say it's not overly tough to play? Then why does it get such a bad rep? Evil propaganda?

Well most of the time if a group is wiped because of lack of teamwork the healer is blamed... even more so if he did anything else then heal.

[Enochroot]

Well most of the time if a group is wiped because of lack of teamwork the healer is blamed... even more so if he did anything else then heal.

Generally because a party with a good cleric CAN NOT wipe. Bar a few quests with small locked rooms or required damage thresholds on regenerating mobs.


Sure, you could flip that around and say it's everyone else's fault for not being awesome, but, whatever, I'd rather be the one that doesn't wipe.

[Tumarek]

Generally because a party with a good cleric CAN NOT wipe. Bar a few quests with small locked rooms or required damage thresholds on regenerating mobs.


Sure, you could flip that around and say it's everyone else's fault for not being awesome, but, whatever, I'd rather be the one that doesn't wipe.

Cant agree there... heals help out but are not the soul of a party... if people dont work together you'll just run out of SP, scrolls and pots sooner or later. And well there is a limit of how much extra money i invest in a quest just because the people dont know what they are doing.
Ever tried to keep up with the healing when a 800 HP babrian with no AC runs past the tank and jumps in the middle of a big mob? My SP are gone within a few sec...

[Enochroot]

Cant agree there... heals help out but are not the soul of a party... if people dont work together you'll just run out of SP, scrolls and pots sooner or later. And well there is a limit of how much extra money i invest in a quest just because the people dont know what they are doing.
Ever tried to keep up with the healing when a 800 HP babrian with no AC runs past the tank and jumps in the middle of a big mob? My SP are gone within a few sec...

Why didn't you take control of the big mob before the squishie barb did?


I never said you should just heal, I said a well-played cleric.

[Phidius]

Generally because a party with a good cleric CAN NOT wipe. Bar a few quests with small locked rooms or required damage thresholds on regenerating mobs.


Sure, you could flip that around and say it's everyone else's fault for not being awesome, but, whatever, I'd rather be the one that doesn't wipe.

The important thing to remember here is that even if everyone else is riding around in the cleric's backpack, the party did not wipe. It may feel that way to the ones riding in the backpack, though.

Of course, the same could be said about an arcane battlecaster.

[sirgog]

Hm, the more I've thought about what I wrote, the more I am sure it was genius.


Building a battle cleric is FAR easier than playing one, and therefore, should be easily handled by anyone good enough to play a battlecleric.


You say it's not overly tough to play? Then why does it get such a bad rep? Evil propaganda?

The bad rep comes from the fact that in this game, whenever there is a wipe, the healer is usually first to be blamed for it. There are few situations where this doesn't happen.

Idiots will blame a healer for a wipe caused by the fact that a level 13 party without greensteel weapons takes on elite Running with the Devils, even though such a group won't have the DPS necessary to defeat the rednamed eladrin.

[ratpacker]

I'm not so sure about that. A battlecleric isn't overly tough to play (I find my pure Monk more difficult), but it does require a few skills other characters don't.

Example: You need to be able to work out when to turn Quicken on and off. I had Quicken on about 50% of the time through the low to medium levels, but since getting the pinnacle of healing efficiency that is Mass Heal, Quicken remains on almost all the time.

You also need to have some sense of when you can and cannot survive aggro in combat.




I'm kinda thinking of posting something like that sometime soon. Gotta get around to writing it first. Maybe I might make a video tutorial for playing a BC.

Hi Sirgog, excellent suggestion!

I have started a dwarven cleric based on some of the builds I read in the forum and is having a blast for the past few days. Currently he is at Cleric 6 Fighter 1 - not a full fledged healbot but can heal a bunch of hp with good gear (superior devotion shield). He can also wield a good great axe or turtled into defensive position with tower shield and defensive fighting and of course healing from far if needed. I am still learning the game.

I have read through this thread and many a posts on battleclerics - the love and the hate. I agree with the statement "success of player is 20% build, 20% gear, 60% Player skills" - this applies to every one and not just the cleric per se.

All clerics need to learn through playing. How can a newbie (like me lol) learn how best a cleric works if not given the opportunity to try? Things like knowing which spells are most effective with which crowd, when to aggro and when not to, etc. if not by doing it? I always mention to PUGs that I am a newbie cleric before I start out with them and it is good to run with experienced clerics so that i can learn from them.

Sirgog, and other cleric veterans in ddo - it would be great if we can start a thread to discuss about the tactics and gameplay to be used by a cleric (be it a battle cleric or healbot) for him to be most effective in a group. This will be much more constructive than discussing why a battlecleric is bad or good. This post has been very entertaining but I really think a dedicated post on "How to Play a good cleric" is a better way of contribution to the forum.

Love this game!

PS +1 rep for you Sirgog!

[Enochroot]

Generally because a party with a good cleric CAN NOT wipe. Bar a few quests with small locked rooms or required damage thresholds on regenerating mobs.


Sure, you could flip that around and say it's everyone else's fault for not being awesome, but, whatever, I'd rather be the one that doesn't wipe.

The bad rep comes from the fact that in this game, whenever there is a wipe, the healer is usually first to be blamed for it. There are few situations where this doesn't happen.

Idiots will blame a healer for a wipe caused by the fact that a level 13 party without greensteel weapons takes on elite Running with the Devils, even though such a group won't have the DPS necessary to defeat the rednamed eladrin.

Way to use an example directly from a situation I've already explicitly said was an exception to where a cleric can't just finish, and, btw, why is the cleric in there on elite with a party he doesn't know? Stupid.


And battleclerics dont' get their bad rep from running with the devils wipes on elite, you'll have to try harder than that.

[sirgog]

Hi Sirgog, excellent suggestion!

I have started a dwarven cleric based on some of the builds I read in the forum and is having a blast for the past few days. Currently he is at Cleric 6 Fighter 1 - not a full fledged healbot but can heal a bunch of hp with good gear (superior devotion shield). He can also wield a good great axe or turtled into defensive position with tower shield and defensive fighting and of course healing from far if needed. I am still learning the game.

I have read through this thread and many a posts on battleclerics - the love and the hate. I agree with the statement "success of player is 20% build, 20% gear, 60% Player skills" - this applies to every one and not just the cleric per se.

All clerics need to learn through playing. How can a newbie (like me lol) learn how best a cleric works if not given the opportunity to try? Things like knowing which spells are most effective with which crowd, when to aggro and when not to, etc. if not by doing it? I always mention to PUGs that I am a newbie cleric before I start out with them and it is good to run with experienced clerics so that i can learn from them.

Sirgog, and other cleric veterans in ddo - it would be great if we can start a thread to discuss about the tactics and gameplay to be used by a cleric (be it a battle cleric or healbot) for him to be most effective in a group. This will be much more constructive than discussing why a battlecleric is bad or good. This post has been very entertaining but I really think a dedicated post on "How to Play a good cleric" is a better way of contribution to the forum.

Love this game!

PS +1 rep for you Sirgog!

You've definitely got the right idea for playing a battlecleric - being prepared to switch quickly from frontline combatant and healer to turtling healer as needed. Learning that lesson is the #1 most important part of playing a battlecleric.

As for the tactics and gameplay required to be an effective cleric, this really does differ between the five main archetpyes (healbot, battlecleric, offensive caster, melee survivalist, offensive caster survivalist - the last two being ClrXX/Mnk2 or similar builds which sacrifice some casting and healing ability to take two or three Monk levels for Evasion, extreme AC and maybe Aligning the Heavens). I'm certainly no expert on playing offensive caster builds and have never even tried a survivalist build, but really there would need to be five threads made, not just one.

[Hjarki]

At present endgame, there is *no* quest where I would rather have a Ftr20 max-DPS Kensai build and a Clr20 healbot build to two equivalently geared, well built Clr18/Ftr2 builds. More melee DPS, more healing, more Bladebarriers (even if the save DC is lower than that of the healbot), more wipe prevention (two people that can cast Quickened True Resurrection).

I couldn't disagree more. A max DPS melee combat build will do over 150% of the damage of a battle cleric. He will also have a shot of actually standing up to the kind of damage that enemies dish out. He will also bring absurdly-high-save-DC melee combat maneuvers in many cases. You simply can't replace him with a battle cleric.

What you can replace with the battle cleric is the healbot.

[acidtiger]

Remember all the Battle Cleric hate when you're looking for someone to heal your sorry a$$es through some dungeon.

Personally, I would much rather heal on my pure 20 cleric, but I've also healed dungeons and raids on my BC just fine. So have fun sitting in the lfm with 'need healer and gtg', I sure won't be.

[SlipperyPete]

Not at all true.

Battle clerics (assuming a Clr18/Ftr2 level split) have their main heal spells heal for the following percentage of a Clr20's heals:

Heal: 100%
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds: 93.75%
Mass Cure Light Wounds: 92%
Mass Heal: 90%
(Whilst less often used, the other healing spells - Mass Cure Serious/Critical Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds etc all have 94.7% or better effect from a Clr18/Ftr2; the higher level Mass Cures may become more useful in future as more players get access to Superior Devotion 8 or Superior Ardor 8 or Superior Efficacy 8)

That's *all* they are behind in healing. Clr19/Pal1 builds are even higher healing.

And, with one more person doing significant melee DPS, enemies go down faster.


At present endgame, there is *no* quest where I would rather have a Ftr20 max-DPS Kensai build and a Clr20 healbot build to two equivalently geared, well built Clr18/Ftr2 builds. More melee DPS, more healing, more Bladebarriers (even if the save DC is lower than that of the healbot), more wipe prevention (two people that can cast Quickened True Resurrection).

If I could rep you I would.

[Twerpp]

Why didn't you take control of the big mob before the squishie barb did?


I never said you should just heal, I said a well-played cleric.

LOL. Well if thats your philosophy then clerics should just not group and take advantage of dungeon scaling and spend even less mana. In that case we share the same philosophy