Disallow Multiclassing for new players.

[DSC]

It is far too easy to permanently gimp a toon in DDO - but I'd suggest the solution to that is to make it easier to "ungimp" your toon, rather than eliminating character choices. In other words, easier and more extensive respec options are the best solution...

[eonfreon]

Oreg,

If I was an ewber, hard-core addict with 10+ hours play/day, I'd give a rat's behind about gimped toons. I don't. In fact I only have 2-3hours/night if that much. In average, I can only run 1-2 lowbie quests + 1-2 raids per session. Thus why this is such an important issue to me. I honestly don't have the time to spend 1.5 hours in Gwyland's on hard 'cause I _assumed_ that an 8 rogue could easily find and disarm the traps or that people would stick together or they would read party chat or that the 4wiz/4pally wouldn't tank. This assumptions held true, for the most part, up until the onslaught of new players arrived with Mod9.

Also, just to reiterate, I'm suggesting this because I'm not an elitist, exclusive kind of person. I don't like putting "VIP only" or "No F2P, sorry" in the parties I lead. But it seems, judging from the opinion here, that people actually suggest that kind of behavior.

Godspeed.

Okay, you must really be super annoyed with the Players you've gotten stuck with, because you're really not thinking it through. I understand you must be frustrated because you've always sounded pretty reasonable to me.
No one's really suggesting you adopt an "elitist" attitude, not really. For one thing putting those LFM tags like "VIP only" or "no f2p" won't even accomplish what you want, because VIP and f2p are simply tags, they don't describe the players behind the tags, just a paying model for Turbine to keep track of.

The VIP could be the nightmare group mate and the f2p could be the model teammate or vice versa. I'm afraid the only real vetting process is the one we've always had; playing with people. A "no multiclassing" rule would not have helped that pure 8th level Rogue do Gwylan's traps you described.

Better documentation in-game would help, certainly, but restrictions on Multi-classing won't solve your difficulties with certain players. The Players who care enough to learn; will. Those who don't; won't.

Unfortunately, other then running with a tight-knit group of friends, you never know who you're going to get. Turbine could certainly make things clearer to people but no multi-classing rule wouldn't accomplish what you want. It would just confuse people wondering why they can't make the builds they see others have. And then they would be told they had to earn the right to multiclass and... well you remember the whole "Earn 32 Point" debate right?

Anyway, sorry to hear about your experiences and I hope that this venting released some of that pressure . I know that's you just needed to vent, we all do sometimes.

[Khafar]

I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game.

Not for me it isn't. I've grouped a grand total of 4 times in a month (2-3 hours total), which is pretty much typical for my playing schedule in MMOs. My playtimes are too unpredictable, short, and interrupted to group often - usually just once a week or so.

My multi-classed Cleric (Cleric 8 / Fighter 1) is soloing 95% of the time just fine thanks, and I have no need of such "protection". Not when I can read the forums, ask advice in game, and put a few brain cells together to figure things out on my own. The vastly improved support for soloability is why I'm here, and why I've now spent $100 (including the 5000 point package on sale over the weekend). For that, I expect I'll be playing for a good while, although I'll be taking a multi-month break when LOTRO's Seige of Mirkwood expansion arrives. My Turbine Points will still be here when I'm ready to come back and play some more DDO.

I would find this sort of restriction to be extremely irritating. Let me make my mistakes, and learn from them. If you don't want to group with me because I'm running a suboptimal build, that's fine. But don't try to restrict how I can play.

Khafar

[Autolycus]

Absolutely NOT signed!

Different people have fun in different ways. You can offer advice and suggestions, but in no way does anyone have the right to force or limit someone else's play style/choices. If you don't like their choice, no one is forcing you to play with them. That's your choice.

[bobbryan2]

This wouldn't be an issue if DDO had better ways to fix characters. I'm betting the cost of the lesser reincarnation will be prohibitively expensive for newer players though, and it won't even fix the multi-class woes.

Ah well...

[Tyrande]

Usually free players have lots of time or think they have lots of time to grind. They have to make mistakes to learn. It is also fun to see their multi-class part time rogues blow up the trap.

[Arronaz]

This wouldn't be an issue if DDO had better ways to fix characters. I'm betting the cost of the lesser reincarnation will be prohibitively expensive for newer players though, and it won't even fix the multi-class woes.

Ah well...

They should add a proper respec system, for class levels, skills.. really I think everything should be respec'able. How would a full respec system undermine the game in anyway? I never understood why they didn't implement such a feature from start, specially when you consider DDO complexity when compared to other MMOs (and how the game mechanics change abruptely from one mod to the next).

Now for the OP problem, just add a intelligent "path" sytem, fix the paths they gave us, and make them optimal builds. Sometimes I wonder if the devs do actually play the game.

[Gawna]

100% not signed. How many now-veterans who maybe weren't familiar with D&D made crazy builds that were a total mess, but they learned from them? Why wouldn't you let others have the same opportunity? I have grouped with quite a few people who are new to DDO, but not to D&D, and have a wonderful grasp of the game and have made very functional and efficient multi-classed toons. This game is about FUN, not fulfilling someone elses idea of what playing your character should be. I also don't understand why having a 16th level character should be a pre-requisite for multi-classing - you're wrong if you think someone can't make a messed up build after leveling a 16th level barbarian.

[Uska]

Sorry disagree I think it would drive people away.

[TheJusticar]

They should add a proper respec system, for class levels, skills.. really I think everything should be respec'able. How would a full respec system undermine the game in anyway? I never understood why they didn't implement such a feature from start, specially when you consider DDO complexity when compared to other MMOs (and how the game mechanics change abruptely from one mod to the next).

Now for the OP problem, just add a intelligent "path" sytem, fix the paths they gave us, and make them optimal builds. Sometimes I wonder if the devs do actually play the game.

I'm the OP and I approve of this message.

As for learning the hard way argument ... in DDO today there's NO hard way to learn. Death is meaningless and reversible in every possible way. When I came to this game, trust me, I learned very fast how gimped my first three toons were. Due to the death penalty if I died more than once or twice in a dungeon I'd lose my a$$ on XP. If it happen too frequently it FORCED ME to learn the ropes. It forced me to learn about the nuance and detail of building a proper toon. There's no death penalty anymore so people will NOT learn or at least feel they have a gimped toon. For instance, take that 4Wiz/4Pal who died 7 times before half the mission was over. In the days of yore in DDO that person would be so drown into XP debt that he or she would have to consider re-rolling. today I'm very sure that the person has dies hundrerds of times and yet she might be a 5Wiz/5Pal today for all I know. This is why the learn-the-hard way in this game doesn't work and thus why myself and other folks in this thread are suggesting possible solutions to the problem.

Godspeed.

[Xithos]

There is a horde of pure-class gimps running around as well; doing this won't fix the issue you are looking to resolve. Limiting new people in this way would also be construed by them as an obstacle to having fun and possibly keep them from spending any money in the store on the game.

[Pirate-Jake]

dumbest suggestion EVAR.

yes, disable one of the most interesting parts of DDO for new players because they might make a mistake.

Agreed. 100%.

My highest level character is Rogue5/Monk2. and its awesome. Not just in PVE, but in PVP as well. I do not regret building it.

[FluffyCalico]

Devs,



My suggestion: please check if a player has at least one toon lvl 16+ on any server. If not, make them choose a pre-built path

So instead of letting them risk they might gimp their toon, you instead want to guarentee they gimp it? All the prebuilt paths suck.

[winsom]

I think there could be better In-Game Warnings of potentials disasters when multi-classing.

i.e. If a sorceror tries to take a cleric level he should be warned that the benefits of taking both of these classes at once is very frequently not worth the price of:
getting your new spell levels for the rest of your career at a later level than normal, penalizing your caster level, and delaying or removing the aquisition of high level abilities to include 20th level abilities.

Ideally there should be notes that pop-up with hyper-links to suggestions in the Compendium that Forum Users have voted-on to be includes as advice to new players. There could be a pro's vs. cons section for many of these suggestions so the player can read them and decide before going ahead with the multi-class.

I think people should be able to re-build thier alignment and character class selections without needing to start over with a True Reincarnation. This upcoming "re-spec" system carries too steep of a price, especially for a player that has gotten to 16th+ level on his first character and is starting to realize his low level choices are starting to really hurt his character's potential. Many flaws with multi-classing do not show up for many levels which for some players will equate to many weeks of play if they wish to re-start a character.

[Falchion123]

New player are just that - new, they are no more or less intelligent than us. We've learned and they will learn too, some might even come out with some super uber multi-class build we have not thought of yet.

So it's all good, and...../not signed.

[Stealthdog]

What is next? Forcing people to play their characters based on certain perceptions of how classes should be played? If you are a cleric, change the code so you can't swing a weapon but can only sit there and spam heals.

Sorry, but this is perhaps the worst idea I have seen on these boards in years. One of the biggest enjoyments I have had over the years is building a strange toon and running him through levels 1-6 to see how it works out. And, the best part of this game is the unlimited options in characters.

If you are concerned about joining a group because a newb might be in it, then don't join. Add players you have grouped with to your friends list and run quests with them. Just because you had a few bad experiences joining a group blindly doesn't mean the whole dynamics of the game needs to be changed.

I personally find a 4 wizard/4 paladin dual wielding and charging into everything humorous. If you are cautious about a group because of odd multi-levels, then don't join the group. But....geesh....preventing anyone who hasn't reached level 16 on a toon from multiclassing a character is....well.....

I do agree that the prebuilt ones are terrible and better information about building characters would be helpful.

[testing1234]

from what i heard the pregenerated paths were hopelessly gimped-suboptimal in mod8, i have not heard if they were changed with addition of "mod1" i assume they now go all the way to 20.
but from what i saw of first set of pregernated paths i am going to assume (without uptodate proof) that they are once again suboptimal to gimp builds. i have no info at all about the FvS class builds.

do we have anyone in the thread that tried one of the paths in "mod1"/unlimited not sure what to call it, the last modul?

[Wildseed]

Not that good either, starting stats on the "two weapon fighting" Divine avenger: 14/16/10/8/12/14

(sounds gimped to me, not something I'd build) sad thing is at some point they probably put a lvl up into dex too. To be able to grab improved twf.

Beacon of hope: 8/8/14/8/14/18
Angel of Vengeance:8/8/14/8/18

Um, I wouldn't want to play any of these "pre-built" paths and for my 2 coppers about the original post. Thumbs down. Not a good idea to put that much control into the hands of the game. Game builds gimps too. If you research (which some do and you can't make all the people do ANYTHING please remember that) They do have a little dialog that says are you sure you want to multi classs I must admit I've only read the first piece of that particular dialog before I hurried and clicked okay. After all this is the 'computer' world pretty much as long as it doesn't say "give her soul to the devil" or something of that nature I'm gonna click okay as quickly as I can move my mouse. Doesn't matter what it says about possibly gimping your character.

[SquelchHU]

It's possible for a player to be new to DDO but not D&D, and your "Lock multiclassing away without a L16+" plan doesn't account for that at all.

Signed. Especially since most of the prebuilt builds are gimps anyways. Not as bad as random disjointed multiclassing but still not very good. I see a lot of Con 10s in there. The custom route does warn that it's for people that know what they're doing, if you don't that's on you. It also warns you when you go to multiclass that you should know what you're doing and that if you're on a path you'll leave it.

The new players that know what they're doing will make multiclassing work for them. The ones that don't and ignore the warnings were asking for it.

[darkbardraven]

Honestly I have been playing pen and paper D&D Since version one yes I'm middle aged and honestly even some of the knoledgable players make gimped toons I have about four toons on each server although I do have my main server and my main toon that I don't experiment on I do have many I am trying out just to see how they play out some work rather well some.....well lets just say they make good storage of gear I want to keep for later use. The think is alot of people that make gimped toons are looking for something that fits them so why take that away just don't play with em if you don't like there style, its like saying " They should get rid of cowboy hats just cause you don't like cowboy's"