Disallow Multiclassing for new players.

[Grimgore]

I see where you are going, but like the others, I have to disagree. Like every flavor of the month build (the "Batman" was awesome, just never needed FP) it comes with experience and player desire. For every bardbarian warchanter (), there will be 500 failed builds that people will try.

It's their two slots man, let them make the mistakes so they can learn.

[Rabbi_Hordo]

I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game. It's not about a person having fun with builds, it's about fulfilling a role in a group. Your decisions as a player do affect the group (i.e. other people). I'm glad that you're having fun with a gimped build from the get-go, just be aware of it and be aware that you'll be helping your group exactly zero.

Godspeed.

I understand and appreciate your point...but I must agree that it should not be BANNED.
Perhaps a more explanatory message upon level-up, sure, but not banned.

Personally, I enjoy the completely insane ideas the new folks are coming up with. I reminds me of some of the old PnP tournaments we would go to in the '80s where you could play using characters generated for the adventure by the writers of the adventure and were randomly and blindly given to the players. Often the parties that were ridiculous in terms of what we would consider "properly organized" and many of the characters had bizarre multi-classing that would make one think it had to be a joke. A party of 2 wizards, a ranger, a thief and a cleric/thief (***?) and we need to take out a dragon...just pour on the sauce and watch me barbecue. But we got through it and had fun.

I understand that you may not be having fun having these builds disrupting your playtime, so don't accept them into the parties you create. I love the wierd and unusual and frequently raid with the first 12 that come my way and usually complete. Shroud with no clerics but 2 bards and 4 rangers? No problem with me! Away we go! Or my favorite Shroud of all time had nobody over 250 HPs...all casters and bards and one rogue decided to come at the last minute...loved it.

I fully get the concept of helping the party out, but sometimes it can be a real hoot to let the player figure out how to succeed with such a "gimped" character or party. I have yet to find any quest in the game that requires super-perfect-toons and parties crafted par excellence to be completed on Normal or Hard...Elite, well, that can be difficult but it can be done.

[Adamidozz]

How about "allow new players play pre-bulit supa-easy fighter only"?

Seems about right.

[Thrudh]

I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game. It's not about a person having fun with builds, it's about fulfilling a role in a group. Your decisions as a player do affect the group (i.e. other people). I'm glad that you're having fun with a gimped build from the get-go, just be aware of it and be aware that you'll be helping your group exactly zero.

Godspeed.

I'm saying that probably EVERY ONE of us made bad builds in the past... Contributed the best we could, and after dying 7 times in multiple quests like your example player, we rerolled to be better...

They will learn too... just like we did...

[NinetyNineTails]

I think the underlying issue here is that DDO is somewhat unusual in how easy it is to gimp your character, and how early in the process this can be accomplished, and how irreversible it can be, and how non-transparent all of this can be to new players.

It's not an EVE-level learning curve, but it's pretty unfriendly. Any game that wants to grow and succeed needs to be able to have new players come in and have fun. Gimped DDO characters are so gimped and it's so easy to do, I don't like to think about how many new players who might have become solid players contributing to the game just left because they don't want to fight the game.

I don't think the OP's suggestion is the right way to address this issue. In many ways, the flexibility and wide-open option space of DDO's character building system is one of the game's strengths. But it would be good to have some way for new players to approach that system more gradually.

One of the problems is that the character path system is supposed to be that tool for new players to use to avoid having to deal with many of the system's subtleties right off the bat. But all we vets know that the paths are, by and large, horrifically gimped themselves. Offering new players something that promises to let them play without having to understand the character system up front is good, but then offering them Deepwood Sniper is fail.

My suggestion would be to revise the offered paths into good, solid starting builds, a la that 'starting builds' post that newbies rightly get directed to. Then newbies can be pointed at the paths as 'if you don't want the half hour Char Builds 101 lecture, pick one of those. They don't suck'.

[klobbermeister]

It's possible for a player to be new to DDO but not D&D, and your "Lock multiclassing away without a L16+" plan doesn't account for that at all.

QFMFT! Seriously, this idea is replete with LOSE...

[Minor_Threat]

...

While I don't think this is necessary, I do think it would help many players and lead to them being long time players which is good for DDO.

The starter builds need explained better, built better, and there needs to be more of them. I think there should be links in character creation to the compendium for each class so that more in depth info is available.

[TheJusticar]

I think the underlying issue here is that DDO is somewhat unusual in how easy it is to gimp your character, and how early in the process this can be accomplished, and how irreversible it can be, and how non-transparent all of this can be to new players.

It's not an EVE-level learning curve, but it's pretty unfriendly. Any game that wants to grow and succeed needs to be able to have new players come in and have fun. Gimped DDO characters are so gimped and it's so easy to do, I don't like to think about how many new players who might have become solid players contributing to the game just left because they don't want to fight the game.

I don't think the OP's suggestion is the right way to address this issue. In many ways, the flexibility and wide-open option space of DDO's character building system is one of the game's strengths. But it would be good to have some way for new players to approach that system more gradually.

One of the problems is that the character path system is supposed to be that tool for new players to use to avoid having to deal with many of the system's subtleties right off the bat. But all we vets know that the paths are, by and large, horrifically gimped themselves. Offering new players something that promises to let them play without having to understand the character system up front is good, but then offering them Deepwood Sniper is fail.

My suggestion would be to revise the offered paths into good, solid starting builds, a la that 'starting builds' post that newbies rightly get directed to. Then newbies can be pointed at the paths as 'if you don't want the half hour Char Builds 101 lecture, pick one of those. They don't suck'.

Of all the replies against my suggestion yours is the ONLY ONE who offers a cogent and rational counter argument and counter-suggestion. I wish more people would do that instead of shooting bs like "dumb idea" without offering any insight or clear thoughts.

BTW, I would agree with your suggestion.

Other than "worst suggestion ever" the implicit answer is to run solo and guild-only -- which is completely short-sighted because it addresses the symptoms and not the underlying problem.

Godspeed.

[TheJusticar]

While I don't think this is necessary, I do think it would help many players and lead to them being long time players which is good for DDO.

The starter builds need explained better, built better, and there needs to be more of them. I think there should be links in character creation to the compendium for each class so that more in depth info is available.

Yup. Anything to help out is certainly welcome.

[TheJusticar]

I really hope you are joking, because that is probably the most selfish thing I have ever read on these forums.

Can you not read? How can you say that any pro-group measure is selfish? Do you know what selfish means?

[Graypaws]

Nothing is idiot proof, the world is always imrpoving the idiot model. Disallowing multi classing would work to slow down gimping, but then you would have to force skill sets, disallow certain classes at the start (who hasnt run into the cleric that only heals themselves or mage that wants to melee), and probably even force certain feat choices. Not a direction the game should be heading. All it takes to stop a bad build choice is a bit of research, not a whole lot, just a bit. I just came back after having left 2 months after the game went live. I decided I didnt want to play my 10th lvl paladin again, so I came here and looked at my rogue choices. Found a tempest build that I liked the look of and went with it.

I dont have a 16th lvl character yet and if I had not been allowed to multi class, I would probably have quit already as the build I found (which I freaking love now) demanded 6 lvls of ranger and 1 of monk. So...

/not signed

[ddoer]

Then next we can have a check and unless you have a level 16+ Cleric you are not allowed to create a Barbarian.

if so, Lv 20 cleric is required for WF Barbarian.

This topic does get my attention. I think, a better way is, give more warning on multi-classing and suggest them to stay pure unless they know what they are doing.

if you do lfm yourself, it's not hard recognize abnormal multi-class build and ignore them.

[TheJusticar]

Nothing is idiot proof, the world is always imrpoving the idiot model. Disallowing multi classing would work to slow down gimping, but then you would have to force skill sets, disallow certain classes at the start (who hasnt run into the cleric that only heals themselves or mage that wants to melee), and probably even force certain feat choices. Not a direction the game should be heading. All it takes to stop a bad build choice is a bit of research, not a whole lot, just a bit. I just came back after having left 2 months after the game went live. I decided I didnt want to play my 10th lvl paladin again, so I came here and looked at my rogue choices. Found a tempest build that I liked the look of and went with it.

I dont have a 16th lvl character yet and if I had not been allowed to multi class, I would probably have quit already as the build I found (which I freaking love now) demanded 6 lvls of ranger and 1 of monk. So...

/not signed

Thus why is only a suggestion. Not a mandate. The restriction could come in other forms that are friendly to everyone, yet restrictive enough to avoid blatant pitfalls.

As for doing research ... this world we live would be so much better if people would RTFM ... but most don't. Thus, why _some_ handholding is sometimes necessary.

Godspeed.

[Hokiewa]

I think a lot of people are missing the point that this is first and foremost a GROUP-BASED game. It's not about a person having fun with builds, it's about fulfilling a role in a group. Your decisions as a player do affect the group (i.e. other people). I'm glad that you're having fun with a gimped build from the get-go, just be aware of it and be aware that you'll be helping your group exactly zero.

Godspeed.

Wrong. Your definition of fun might suit YOU, but don't pigeonhole the entire playing community into that same exact reason. People have fun for many reasons in this game, fulfilling a role is just one of them. That's the point you are missing.

[kingfisher]

/not signed

sorrybut if this werea rule then how would would said 2/2/2 provide us with so much mirth when he explains over voice chat the reason why he died, and then promptly dies again with a different explaination, then again, and again, until finally all you hear over voice are a long patch of silence **crickets** followed by a very hushed "well ****"?

but seriously, come on dude how you gonna take away multiclassing?? noobs could just as easily screw up a pure build anyway. like the lvl 14 sorc that finally realized he had put all his build points into intelligence 'cause i am an arcane!' or the rogue who started with an 8 con cause 'they wont ever see me to hit me, i can hide sooooooooooo good', or any of a million other borked builds that have nothing to do with multicalssing.

[TheJusticar]

The new people playing. I have no doubt that it is frustrating for you as you race to cap yet another character but for the new people it is all part of what makes DDO good.

BTW, your sig says July 2009. Is this when you first started playing? I am curious.

Oreg,

If I was an ewber, hard-core addict with 10+ hours play/day, I'd give a rat's behind about gimped toons. I don't. In fact I only have 2-3hours/night if that much. In average, I can only run 1-2 lowbie quests + 1-2 raids per session. Thus why this is such an important issue to me. I honestly don't have the time to spend 1.5 hours in Gwyland's on hard 'cause I _assumed_ that an 8 rogue could easily find and disarm the traps or that people would stick together or they would read party chat or that the 4wiz/4pally wouldn't tank. This assumptions held true, for the most part, up until the onslaught of new players arrived with Mod9.

Also, just to reiterate, I'm suggesting this because I'm not an elitist, exclusive kind of person. I don't like putting "VIP only" or "No F2P, sorry" in the parties I lead. But it seems, judging from the opinion here, that people actually suggest that kind of behavior.

Godspeed.

[Graypaws]

Oreg,

If I was an ewber, hard-core addict with 10+ hours play/day, I'd give a rat's behind about gimped toons. I don't. In fact I only have 2-3hours/night if that much. In average, I can only run 1-2 lowbie quests + 1-2 raids per session. Thus why this is such an important issue to me. I honestly don't have the time to spend 1.5 hours in Gwyland's on hard 'cause I _assumed_ that an 8 rogue could easily find and disarm the traps or that people would stick together or they would read party chat or that the 4wiz/4pally wouldn't tank. This assumptions held true, for the most part, up until the onslaught of new players arrived with Mod9.

Also, just to reiterate, I'm suggesting this because I'm not an elitist, exclusive kind of person. I don't like putting "VIP only" or "No F2P, sorry" in the parties I lead. But it seems, judging from the opinion here, that people actually suggest that kind of behavior.

Godspeed.

I do fully understand your frustration. Ive played many different online games and seen a variety of different bad/good players. All I can suggest is start adding to your friends list people you run with that are good players or join a guild (I would suggest running with some of the guild members first, just to be safe). I like the idea that when multi classing some sorta warning pops up, but really, it wont help much.

[Minor_Threat]

Yup. Anything to help out is certainly welcome.

This wasn't directed at the OP, but at NinetyNineTails as I quoted.

I don't agree in anyway with the OP.

[ddoer]

/not signed
but seriously, come on dude how you gonna take away multiclassing?? noobs could just as easily screw up a pure build anyway. like the lvl 14 sorc that finally realized he had put all his build points into intelligence 'cause i am an arcane!' or the rogue who started with an 8 con cause 'they wont ever see me to hit me, i can hide sooooooooooo good', or any of a million other borked builds that have nothing to do with multicalssing.

this is a good point. and it's more common to see rog who can't search or disable traps.

let the new players do multi-class so we could recognize gimp build easier.

[Inspire]

Can you not read? How can you say that any pro-group measure is selfish? Do you know what selfish means?

See post 12.