Warforged Duo recommendations

[The_Baub]

More I think about it, more I like the idea of THF style, and the benefit is that it can be swapped easily via feat / enhancement respec as needed if it doesn't work out. Won't be as tank-ish as was hoping for the duo build, but see later note regarding that. Sure, it'll cost, but by then I'm hoping I'll be rich(er). Heck, by then the new reincarnation may be up and running allowing me to even respec some levels to splash other classes, if necessary.

Note, and this one's a game changer:
Ran into a guy today, whom I met via PAX... turns out he also picked up DDO after the expo, along with some friends of his... maybe I'll convince one of them to run a Rogue, or even the Ranger / Rogue Tempest build I've done ok with so far, so the traps will be covered.. will have to see. For now, it's an excuse to work with the purist builds to get the capstones.

Anyhow, I've got a first draft of the Fighter build, looking for advice.
Keep in mind, this is my first planned solo build (well... solo + advice from many, many threads)
I've also never gotten a character into even the double digits, so I'm obviously not an expert, nor have I ever played a Fighter (in DDO).
I also know I probably took some stuff that will be thought of a bad choices, some of which I'll want to take anyway, just because I like the sound of it, but some of them may be just from being new, which is 1/2 the reason for the post.
(example... all 1/level skill points into Balance, because I never got an answer if there's a better place to put them)

Thanks again
The Baub

Build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Warforged Fighter
Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Female
(20 Fighter) 
Hit Points: 382
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 5
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    26
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               12                    12
Charisma              6                     6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               1                     5
Bluff                -2                     1
Concentration         3                     4
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -2                    -2
Heal                  1                     1
Hide                 -1                    -6
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  4                     4
Listen                1                     1
Move Silently        -1                    -6
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  1                     1
Swim                  4                    -2
Tumble               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Adamantine Body
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II


Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking I


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Kensei Falchion Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude II


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Falchion Specialization I


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking II


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Falchion Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction II


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking III


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Iron Will
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Falchion Specialization II
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude III


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Damage Reduction
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Enhancement: Kensei Falchion Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I


Level 19 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Resilience
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III

[VonBek]

You may want Iron Will earlier than 15.

I'd rather take Toughness or Impr. DR or even Bull Headed instead of Resilience.

[Therigar]

Er, huh? Warforged have some of the best AC throughout the game, with the least investment. While Monk splashes with a Icy Rainment are higher, Warforged tend to have the highest AC achievable without hard-to-farm uber loot. (I think perhaps his mistake is thinking Adamantine Body is the route to optimal AC? Not sure.) I'd recommend disregarding Therigar's advice on this count.

Warforged suffer in the AC area regardless of how you slice it. Taking the standard composite body without any additions provides the best way to get to a reasonably high AC. That requires the monk splash, a reasonable starting WIS, a reasonable starting DEX, a character class that will allow for DEX enhancements and you still need additional AC items. Moving to mithral or adamantine body compensates somewhat but is not the path for optimal AC on a warforged character.

All of that requires build points which OP does not have at 28 points. Here is a situation where the additional 4 build points really do make a difference.

Let's look at gear because this will be AC that will always be there regardless of character class (with one exception).

10 base AC for all characters
05 deflection bonus from +5 protection item
05 docent +5
01 dodge bonus from alchemical ritual (note this change per the wiki)
04 shield bonus from clickie (we are discussing TWF & THF, S&B will be more)
04 insight bonus from dragontouched docent or Shroud weapon
02 dodge bonus from Chaosgarde (does not apply to barbarians)
03 dodge bonus from Chattering Ring (a farmed item)
--
34 this is the AC that a warforged can reasonably expect to get from equipment.

That AC is modified by the decision on body feats. If they choose composite body add 02 and another 02 if they have the dragontouched docent. If they choose mithral body add 05 and if they have adamantine body add 08. Mithral and adamantine cap DEX so without fighter feats to give armor mastery the DEX bonuses are limited.

09 adamantine body with maximum DEX bonus or
10 mithral body with maximum DEX bonus or
04 plus full DEX and WIS bonuses composite body with dragontouched docent

34 geared AC
09 max adamantine body AC
--
43 AC it will never get more than this without feats and buffs

34 geared AC
10 max mithral body AC
--
44 AC it will never get more than this without feats and buffs

With a L1 monk splash and assuming ranger or rogue for character class then there is the potential for more standing AC

34 geared AC
04 composite body with dragontouched docent
10 DEX bonus from starting DEX of 13 with stat increases into DEX, +2 tome and +6 item
05 WIS bonus from starting WIS of 12 with +2 tome and +6 item
--
53 AC which is the best standing AC without feats and buffs

Assuming ranger with Tempest enhancements makes no difference because the Tempest AC is a shield type. It does eliminate the need for the shield clickie and it isn't dispellable. Additional feats and buffs that can improve the AC are:

01 haste
05 barkskin
05 paladin aura
02 recitation spell
03 bard song
01 TWD
05 CE
--
22 additional AC

That leaves the best warforged AC with full party buffs and combat expertise on at ~75 assuming that they went with a DEX build and monk splash.

Why doesn't this apply to OP? Because OP will be duoing with their partner. They need to be focused on DPS which means they cannot afford to put their stat increases into DEX. This effectively takes 3 off AC. In duo mode they will not have recitation or paladin aura or bard song leaving the AC at a buffed 62 -- and that is fully geared out. Not taking a monk splash means losing another 5 AC. We now have the TANK sitting on a best case 57 AC after buffs -- and a beholder proof AC of 51 assuming they choose ranger and have the Tempest enhancements through tier III.

Your observations are appropriate in the case of experienced players with multiple characters and 32 point builds who are able to obtain the needed gear to make the build work.

But, for new players your observations are inappropriate. The attainable AC is trivial on late-game content. The DPS of a build that OP could make to reach ~70 AC is too low. This means the entire concept breaks.

OP and partner would be better off with dual wizards or sorcerers and learning how to stand in one another's firewalls and watch aggro shift back and forth. But, if they want a melee oriented character then they need to forget AC and focus on HP and DPS. That means going with fighter as a character class, not wasting the feat on combat expertise and taking TWF with the Kensai enhancement line.

If the two of them want rogue skills it has to go on the wizard. Putting enough INT onto the melee build to keep skills up detracts too much from the build.

OP would be well advised to listen to what I am suggesting. They will discover through experience that I am correct if they do not. It will be a shame to waste the time in character development only to hit L9+ and need to start again.

[AlphandOmega]

Just curious. Why would you prefer splashing a level of Wizrard with your WF Paladin, instead of splashing a level of Sorcerer instead? You would kill two birds with one stone because Pally's and Sorc's both rely on Cha. Then you would have many more points to play with. Pally/Cleric/Sorc? That's alot of splashing..might create a wave.

[Therigar]

More I think about it, more I like the idea of THF style, and the benefit is that it can be swapped easily via feat / enhancement respec as needed if it doesn't work out. Won't be as tank-ish as was hoping for the duo build, but see later note regarding that.

Fighter is far and away your best choice. I still disagree with your selection of THF but the important thing in D&D is that the person behind the character enjoy what they are making. Since that is a personal choice I can't really fault it.

Why did you put points into WIS and even more important, why did you shortchange CON to do it? Your AC is never going to matter. You need HP to protect you. Putting points into WIS is a waste of time. Your net improvement in Will saves is +3 which won't mean a thing since you are still going to fail Will saves and when you do you won't have enough HP.

Fighters can afford to sacrifice STR but not CON. You can take -1 or even -2 on DPS but never, ever on HP per level. A 14 CON surrenders 40 HP. If you think that is immaterial then you should rethink.

Edit: STR is needed to avoid getting knocked over, DEX to get up. Balance helps when you try to get up. Because you will have a wizard who should have Jump you can put the points into balance.

[Therigar]

Just curious. Why would you prefer splashing a level of Wizrard with your WF Paladin, instead of splashing a level of Sorcerer instead? You would kill two birds with one stone because Pally's and Sorc's both rely on Cha. Then you would have many more points to play with. Pally/Cleric/Sorc? That's alot of splashing..might create a wave.

I think you misread. The paly / wiz reference is to two different characters that will be the duo. OP has moved on to wizard plus fighter ?) plus hoping for a new aquantance for rogue.

[Thanimal]

Btw, The_Baub: I sent you a Private Message last week. I only mention this because I was on the forums for quite a while before I even realized there WERE private messages. You might be in the same boat.

[cforce]

<mostly snipped>

Why doesn't this apply to OP? Because OP will be duoing with their partner. They need to be focused on DPS which means they cannot afford to put their stat increases into DEX. This effectively takes 3 off AC. In duo mode they will not have recitation or paladin aura or bard song leaving the AC at a buffed 62 -- and that is fully geared out. Not taking a monk splash means losing another 5 AC. We now have the TANK sitting on a best case 57 AC after buffs -- and a beholder proof AC of 51 assuming they choose ranger and have the Tempest enhancements through tier III.

You appear to be making an argument to support the point, "DPS builds suffer when it comes to AC." I agree that DPS builds have lower AC than defensive builds! You'll note that the statement I was actually disagreeing with was:

I have already advised that warforged suffer after the early levels when it comes to AC.

A good way to defend this point would be to compare Warforged with other races with equivalent resources or equipment.

I also disagree with some of your other points, but I'll move on to those after you address this one.

[Therigar]

You appear to be making an argument to support the point, "DPS builds suffer when it comes to AC." I agree that DPS builds have lower AC than defensive builds! You'll note that the statement I was actually disagreeing with was:

I have already advised that warforged suffer after the early levels when it comes to AC.

A good way to defend this point would be to compare Warforged with other races with equivalent resources or equipment.

I also disagree with some of your other points, but I'll move on to those after you address this one.

Let's take a warforged and ignore DEX for the moment and compare it to a halfling, a dwarf and a human.

Warforged AC: 10 base + 8 adamantine + 5 docent = 23.
Halfling AC: 10 base + 1 size bonus + 13 +5 mithral full plate = 24.
Dwarf AC: 10 base + 13 +5 mithral full plate = 23.
Human AC: 10 base + 13 +5 mithral full plate = 23.

Now let's add in DEX with armor mastery.

Warforged AC 23 + 4 = 27.
Halfling AC 24 + 6 = 30.
Dwarf AC 23 + 9 = 32.
Human AC 23 + 6 = 29.

Let's take Warforged with mithral body rather than adamantine.

Warforged AC 10 base + 5 mithral + 5 docent + 8 DEX w fighter armor mastery = 28.

So, armored humans, dwarves and halflings have more AC than warforged. Anything else you add in applies equally to all of them so we don't need to discuss it.

Let's take Warforged with composite body and dragontouched docent. Now we have something to discuss.

Warforged AC:

10 base AC
02 composite body
05 +5 docent
02 composite body bonus from dragontouched docent
04 dodge bonus from dragontouched docent if proper rune is found
01 dodge bonus from alchemical ritual at stone of change
02 dodge bonus from Chaosgarde
--
26 AC

Halfling AC:

10 base AC
02 DEX advantage with enhancements
04 dodge bonus from Icy Raiment
08 +8 AC bracer
01 dodge bonus from alchemical ritual at stone of change
01 size bonus
--
26 AC

Human or Dwarf AC:

10 base AC
04 dodge bonus from Icy Raiment
08 +8 AC bracer
01 dodge bonus from alchemical ritual at stone of change
--
23 AC

Again, DEX or WIS bonuses do not matter now because they can be the same for any of them. Neither do any other items or equipment as the only things that are different are the docent/bracer combo for the warforged and the robe/bracer combo for the halfling, dwarf and human.

Bottom line is that, except when using composite armor, the warforged do not have the same AC potential as other race under any comparable situation.

If you think an end-game AC of 66 is just as good as an end-game AC of 70 then that probably explains a lot.

Edit: Edited to accommodate the complaint that Icy Raiment dodge bonus is unfair and that I should include the similar dodge bonus available on a dragontouched docent.

[Therigar]

You appear to be making an argument to support the point, "DPS builds suffer when it comes to AC." I agree that DPS builds have lower AC than defensive builds!

Good, because that is the only point that matters in this particular case. In a duo you need someone who can DPS and they have to choose to sacrifice AC to do that.

Because they sacrifice AC to get DPS the debate about AC is now irrelevant. The only compensation for reduced AC is increased HP. So for a duo the only build that is relevant is the one that combines highest practical DPS with highest practical HP. Preserving some measure of AC is also worthwhile, but it is no longer one of the top priorities.

A warforged TWF Kensai fighter with 16 STR 15 DEX 18 CON is superior to any other option for DPS, AC and HP. Note this applies to the OP's initial request for warforged melee character as one part of the duo. The statement is only true in that context.

[Bbrik]

Here are a few pm for the deatails

all wf

2rog 18wiz
2rog 18pally
20barb
2fighter 18barb
2rog 18barb
2rog 2fighter 16barb
20sorc

my fav is probally the 2rog 18wiz I have a 2rog 7wiz right now and love him!!

[Thanimal]

If you think an end-game AC of 66 is just as good as an end-game AC of 70 then that probably explains a lot.

I doubt anybody thinks THAT, least of all cforce.

[Thanimal]

In a duo you need someone who can DPS and they have to choose to sacrifice AC to do that.

Fwiw, my duoing (which has been fairly frequent with a few different pairs, but only up to about level 10) has given me essentially the opposite experience. I feel AC on the front-liner is absolutely critical, and it's OK if it takes a little longer to kill stuff. This is exactly the reason I recommended Big Rock Candy (Fighter 18/Rogue 2). The build can fairly easily obtain good AC without insane equipment, because it actually uses a Tower Shield (old school, I know!), but it also can go to TWF/PA mode for some decent DPS when required.

[kingfisher]

I feel AC on the front-liner is absolutely critical, and it's OK if it takes a little longer to kill stuff.

depends on the duo no? a massive dps toon and fulltime healbot can also duo most content. 2 medium ac/ good dps ranger types can duo a lot as well. same for an intimtank and a rogue. or a damage focused cleric and a healbot. or 2 arcanes. or 2 battlecasters. or a million other combos. to me a successful duo depends more on build/player synergy than the actual builds chosen.

[Therigar]

My comment regarding duoing is based on OP's indicated desire for a melee character and a healer character -- in this case warforged meaning the healer role is a wizard which opens up a lot of additional options.

Going with AC over DPS works fine if the mob does not regenerate faster than you can do damage. Nothing is worse than beating on something and seeing it all of a sudden just jump back up to total health. And, mobs don't have mana bars.

If you think this doesn't happen then try the troll in Waterworks or the ogre mage in Tangleroot. If you are going to duo and you are going to have one character as a melee type then you need DPS.

Because the game balance is DPS vs AC vs HP you have to choose what is most important. AC + HP and letting the DPS slide is a poor choice. AC + DPS and letting the HP slide is a poorer choice.

The real best choice is two arcanes or one arcane plus one cleric. But that isn't what the OP asked for. The next best choice given the OP's parameters is a wizard/rogue and a fighter.

If OP wants to sacrifice some DPS to gain some AC that can work. I have done similarly as well running two accounts and two machines while playing a sorcerer and a ranger/monk/rogue. What I encountered was this -- when the ranger could not deal enough DPS the sorcerer had to carry the quest. When the sorcerer could not carry the quest the ranger had to do enough DPS. When both were true at the same time then the quest could not be completed.

Of course, I was effectively soloing on two characters -- I haven't worked out how to play two simultaneously (although my new machine could easily dual-box I'm not sure I could control two characters in the middle of an encounter and not get both killed). Having two actual people controlling two characters may avoid the problem that I encountered.

But, my limited experience in this arena tells me that DPS > HP > AC. So, going back to the game balance of DPS vs AC vs HP I have to go with the belief that the best choice is DPS + HP at the expense of AC.

[AlphandOmega]

My comment regarding duoing is based on OP's indicated desire for a melee character and a healer character -- in this case warforged meaning the healer role is a wizard which opens up a lot of additional options.
.

While I mostly agree with the rest of your post, I beleive WF Sorc's to be more suited for healing as well as cross classing.

Best Greenpeace Video EVER!!

[cforce]

Let's take a warforged and ignore DEX for the moment and compare it to a halfling, a dwarf and a human.

<snipped>

Therigar, here are the parts of this comparison where I'd say you're 'cheating':

- Giving the Fleshies MFP without giving the WF the easier-to-obtain Dragontocuhed Docent
- Talking about heavy-armor builds without talking about Tower Shields or PrE's
- Comparing WF in Mithral (light, evasion-friendly) to Fleshies in medium armor.
- Not bringing in Mithral Fluidity feats. (I find these questionable decisions, too -- but you're the one who led with the 28-dex dwarf.)
- Including the Icy at all. Giving a player "how to build a good duo" advice while assuming that the duo will grind for a Icy is foolish -- as it is for any build discussions that don't begin with "this is a build for hardcore powergamers".

I don't want to derail this thread *too* much more, so I'll be brief, and leave it at this:

- If you're making a build which cares about defense in the first place, you're likely picking up Evasion somewhere, using one of the Defender PrE's, or both.
- If you've got evasion and no armor, it's very tough to beat the WF without resorting to 5%-of-the-population uber-loot (Icy).
- If you've got evasion and Light Armor, the WF starts life with a Mithral Breastplate, which eventually becomes a "+7 Mithral Breastplace" when you get to level 16.
- If you go heavy armor and have a defender PrE, you've got other max dex bonuses -- they become freely available to everyone, not just dwarves. (And, if you're going to theorize a dwarf taking advantage of all *11* points of available dex bonus, I'm going to ask you to show me a decent build that does it.)

I won't go on any more on this topic, though. For the OP, I can only advise: do not think it is a waste to try to get AC on a Warforged, in general. "Warforged can't get good AC, so why bother" is a bad argument for going DPS instead.

Therigar, going back to the point you seem to want to focus on:

In a duo you need someone who can DPS and they have to choose to sacrifice AC to do that.

This is a false dichotomy. Various builds can be made that have:
- Excellent DPS and poor AC
- Very good DPS and very good AC
- Poor DPC and Excellent AC

Like Thanimal, I've done quite a bit of duoing (and soloing and trioing) in different roles: as the healer for a DPS build, the healer for a balanced build, the DPS guy being healed, and the balanced guy being healed. This becomes subjective, but in my experience, the duo of the balanced build (good DPS and good AC) plus healer-who-can-do-other-stuff is the most successful against a variety of content.

Kingfisher:

depends on the duo no?

I agree that player skill is an important component. But good players with good builds still do better than good players with bad builds! Good players can make a lot of combos "work", but there are still combos that will let them push the envelope further.

OP, a lot of Thanimal's recommendations were steering you in this direction. Big Rock Candy, in particular, is a good, flexible small-party build, with good defense and offense, if you want the "WF caster + WF melee" combo.

I think I've said my piece, and will bow out, lest I let Therigar bait me into the flame war he appears to want:

If you think an end-game AC of 66 is just as good as an end-game AC of 70 then that probably explains a lot.

Make up something, claim *I* think it, and then infer I'm stupid for thinking what *you* made up? Heh, happy trolling -- I'll see ya round.

[Therigar]

"Warforged can't get good AC, so why bother" is a bad argument for going DPS instead.

This is not what I am saying. What I am saying is two things:

1) Compared to fleshies warforged AC is lacking -- a fact that is provable even though you don't like the proof.
2) Warforged AC is, relative to the mobs and their abilities, more effective at low levels than at mid and high levels.

This leads me to the following advice -- do not stress on the AC when you have not two but three things you need to be focused on: AC, HP and DPS.

You want to make it an AC vs DPS discussion, but that is incorrect. There are three elements that must work together in the most effective way possible.

You and I are experienced DDO players. Either of us could build a warforged that combined high DPS with high AC and survive with low HP. Depending on how much the second part of the OP's duo wants to function as a healer then they can do that as well.

IMO this may be a mistake for new players. Having high DPS is not really an option -- in other words, choosing high AC and high HP while letting DPS slip is not a choice. I was soloing some L6 quests this morning and ran into a situation where I ran into two cleric mobs. My 16 STR could not take one down faster than they or their partner would heal them. I had to pull the two apart and get one far enough away that I could deal with them alone. And even then it was a protracted fight. And, I'm not playing a melee class.

So, the choice is between HP and AC -- not DPS and AC. And, what I have already shown is that warforged AC is comparatively low. To get it into the high range is possible. But doing so costs both DPS and HP. It is not worth that sacrifice.

Interestingly, I have shown this with actual numbers laying out the limits of warforged AC. You, OTOH, have only made claims that good AC and good DPS are possible.

Let's recall my fighter build recommendation regarding starting stats:

Barbarian and fighter are significantly better. With both you can just focus on STR and CON. 18 STR, 18 CON and 10 DEX works for either one. For barbarian you can drop CON to raise DEX and for fighter you can drop STR to raise DEX. Stat increases when you gain levels go into STR.

Note that I recommended 18 STR, 10 DEX and 18 CON -- and that I then mentioned that a fighter could reduce STR to increase DEX. The reason a fighter can do this is because they will get 3 STR increases from enhancements. So, for 1 less damage per hit they can reduce STR to 16 and increase DEX to 15.

That gives starting stats of 16 STR 15 DEX 18 CON 8 INT 6 WIS and 6 CHA.

Now, let's be honest with OP and stop this AC debate -- to reach the best AC a warforged character must be a ranger or rogue. Either need additional stats that detract from STR, DEX and CON. This is something I've already addressed in this thread.

We are discussing a FIGHTER. That fighter is not going to reap substantial benefit by lowering either STR or CON in order to increase DEX. But, increasing DEX is the only way that they are going to improve their AC.

Every two points lost in STR costs 1 point of damage per hit, more if we factor in critical hits. Every two points lost in CON costs 1 hit point per level. That is 20 hit points at end game. If you think that 20 HP does not matter then how about swapping me straight up your GFL item for my FL item. Not wanting to take that trade? I can't think of many people who would.

How about let's start the game WITHOUT the 20 point heroic durability feat? Don't like that one either? I'm pretty sure most other people wouldn't like it, so you're not alone.

And the, let's talk about actual build points. To raise DEX to max will take an additonal 8 build points for this fighter that OP is creating. Do you seriously mean to suggest that you would offer any of these starting stat numbers?

STR 10, DEX 18, CON 18 or
STR 14, DEX 18, CON 16 or
STR 16, DEX 18, CON 12 or
STR 15, DEX 18, CON 14

The first loses 3 points of damage per hit and begs us to answer why is the character a fighter. It does gain 2 AC.

The second loses 1 point of damage per hit and 1 HP per level to gain 2 AC.

The third loses 3 HP per level to gain 2 AC.

The last loses no damage per hit [o]if[/i] the OP gets a +4 tome, although it is more likely to be 1 point of damage per hit that is lost, and trades 2 HP per level to gain 2 AC.

Do you get this? All your discussion about warforged AC and on a fighter class the best OP can do is improve his AC by 2 points.

I don't know where your thinking is, but to me trading 2 points of AC (and it could be as little as 1 point depending on the tomes that OP gets) is not worth sacrificing 10 points of damage in a GTWF attack chain AND 20 HP -- and that is a best case situation that does not figure in critical hit damage.

The numbers do not lie. The OP's best choice is starting stats of 16 STR, 15 DEX and 18 CON given that they are restricted to a 28 point build.

Edit: One last point, OP could improve AC by putting stat increases into DEX rather than into STR. This effectively sacrifices an additonal 3 points of damage per hit in order to gain 3 AC. I'm pretty sure that if you posted a build like that on the fighter forum you'll get all sorts of comments. And, I rather suspect none of them will be good.

[Therigar]

I beleive WF Sorc's to be more suited for healing as well as cross classing.

Sorcerer doesn't work for OP for two reasons. First, the thread seems to strongly favor one character of the two having rogue abilities. Wizard fits this cross class best.

Second, flexibility. Wizards can adjust spells on the fly while sorcerers have to pay for spell swaps and can only change 1 at a time. Since OP and partner are relatively new the flexibility is better because they don't know what to expect as they progress in levels.

[Fratricide]

I know you said you wanted to stay away from FVS, but I've found that my 28point WF FVS (lord of blades) paired with a sorc has made the best duo team I've ever found. I've been successful in two manning every dungeon I've come across to include lvl 19 devil battlefield stuff. Might want to look into the WF FVS, they dont seem to get much press but are awesome solo/duo