Yet another WF Wiz/Rog thread...

[Zorminster]

Just hit 32 points and it's time to quit being a cleric. The divine has snuffed my inner rage for its last time! Things WILL blow up (not traps lets hope) and XP will be acquired through any and all means necessary (or enjoyable). Wizards have always been my love-class and I really enjoy the utility a rogue can bring. I'm quite content to sit in the back and CC or serve as buffbot until the time for firewall/finger/whatever else arises. I'm fairly certain I understand the builds purpose, objectives, and means to those objectives. My question lies in a bit of the execution.

I'm just working on the build in planner right now so this will likely be a very dynamic thread (at least on my end)- if you make a reply, please check back every few minutes for continued input if you have the time and knowledge available.

So far:
Warforged 32 pt

              Starting 
Abilities    Base Stats    
(32 Point)    (Level 1) 
Strength           13          
Dexterity          8          
Constitution       17          
Intelligence       18          
Wisdom             9          
Charisma            6

My first question arises immediately: I've played just long enough to get 32 points. I've seen most of the early content and paid attention to traps but not confident in remembering them all (since intoxicated gaming is a very real possibility). This necessitates that I maintain my spot skill and a spot item.... does this make it a worthwhile investment to eat a +1 wis tome @ 3 to get my ability mod to 0? Or am I better dropping the wis to an 8 and raising str to 14?


The first 5 levels of the build follows. I'm wanting to go acid focus as opposed to fire since i did fire last time... and blackbone skeletons **** me off beyond belief.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 5 Neutral Good Warforged Male
(1 Rogue \ 4 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 57
Spell Points: 320 
BAB: 2\2
Fortitude: 4
Reflex: 8
Will: 4

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 5)
Strength             13                    13
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         17                    17
Intelligence         18                    21
Wisdom                9                    10
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 5)
Balance               3                     3
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         5                    11
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        8                    13
Haggle                2                     2
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  5                     5
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock             3                     3
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                8                     9
Search                8                    13
Spot                  3                     6
Swim                  5                     5
Tumble                3                     3
Use Magic Device      2                     2

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Repair (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I

Hmm, Level 6 throws a bit of a question in: I'm going to take iMT as the 'anything goes' feat, but for my metamagic i'm curious-- What's the consensus on Empower VS Maximize? Obviously maximize will yield better damage output but at the cost of a dubious amount of SP. I'm questioning whether empower wouldn't be a better 'big picture' kinda choice at this level. I'll get 3 free metamagics as an 18 wiz and i expect: Quicken, extend, and <Damage Mod> will be my freebies. Verdict is still out on whether i may wanna spend an anything goes feat on heighten- i didn't get far enough on my other wizard to necessitate it's use or perhaps I didn't play my last wiz to the fullest capability. I'm also inclined to want enlarge for sniping beholders. Thoughts?


Bah, another edit: Further consideration. This weekend for the first time, +2 tomes are available for circa 700 points. Im VIP and have justified spending points on niceties as opposed to trying to save up and buy the content to go F2P- afterall, I paid for years on other MMOs, why wouldn't i be willing to for this? I'm considering grabbing one and eating it at 7. This means that, at 8 when i put another +1 into int, I increase my available skills points per level by a further 1. This means a couple things: First the imediate bonus is i get to raise my spot and OL together (albeit, OL @ half the speed) AND when i do take my second level of rogue, I have more points for catching up skills that lagged. Input? Am I really going to need those skillpoints or will i already find myself with an abundance?

[Thanimal]

Have you taken a look at my Tinkerer? It's a straight-forward but fairly optimized Wizard N/Rogue 2. 32-point version is also mentioned.

I also treated how I would handle spot. And I don't see a reason to have points in STR. DEX is better, I think, as it gives you a little AC in the early game when you can use some, and helps make sure you can actually Open Locks with only half ranks invested. WIS would be justifiable, too. (Hm -- WIS might actually be better. Gotta think about that. Will save is a little light and could always take SF: OL instead of SF: Spot...)

[Thanimal]

Maximize is far more efficient than Empower.

I've never heard anybody say Enlarge was worthwhile, but that doesn't prove it isn't.

Your skill points will be fine -- there is really one skill a Wizard needs (Concentration) and you'll have it along with sufficient trap skills with an INT of 18. But eating a +2 Tome at 7 is still obviously good if you don't mind the expense. Pick up some Jump.

[Zorminster]

actually no, my search terms didn't return your build as a thread for me, thanks for the link. Actually really close to what i'm looking to.

I'm reluctant to lose the albeit non-optimal strength... .i hate being insta-helpless from RoEnfeeble or other sources and I REALLY hate not being able to carry all my loot out...especially on a 6 charisma character who'se not going to generate much cash. I suppose a fairly reasonable answer to that is find and befriend someone with a haggle mule and just carry out the most expensive weapons or auction-worthy items.

The thing that might just sway me is looking at the wisdom... I could justify not taking the SF:Spot if i moved those stats into wis. I've played enough MMOs and enough DDO that I'm not worried about missing out on some early game AC.

The thing that interests me is your complete lack of even one pointing the spell crit chances. Seems like for 2 AP you are giving yourself potential SP savings. Granted it's not to be counted on by any means-- but it might just make for those clutch kills when you need to pull out a big hit with small amounts of SP usage.

I'm also intrigued by double energy focus- i'm guessing the force is so you're able to deal with constructs?

Do you happen to have this build saved in your char planner? I'd like to see the final rogue skill's numbers accounting for +15 items

[Zorminster]

Maximize is far more efficient than Empower.

<snip>Pick up some Jump.

Yes, on a Damage increase per SP basis- Max is definitely more efficient. However, my thought is this- perhaps maximize is overkill early on? If the damage i generate with it is at least 25% overkill, then empower would be more efficient in the scenario. Even if i fall short on the damage a bit, the melee's would pick up that last bit- i've sitll done more than normally. Or is my motivation for using the damage mod meta comepletely wrong? Perhaps that would be thinking better suited to a sorceror-- perhaps a wizard only needs to use his damage meta when attempting to one shot an enemy?


Also, Jump-- necessary? I hear its capped at 30 which the buff will hit.
**************************EDIT: Leaving the wrong info above but a quick ddowiki shows the cap is 40, not 30. So up to 10 skill (or a +10 item) would show benefit


Further interrogation: Why are you taking the rogue level so early? It seems most builds wait until at least 11, usually later to take that second level. Im assuming its for evasion fairly early?



Also maybe you could help me out here: What spells am I likely to be heightening? Thinking of taking quicken @ 12 instead of heighten.

[Thanimal]

Well, I'm afraid I just "overhauled" the build in light of some observations and comments.

Nothing really that radical, but some of what you bring up above is addressed.

I wouldn't worry about overkilling stuff. In that situation just turn off Maximize. I really view Empower as only useful when you must kill something as fast as possible and don't care how many spell points it takes. I would never have Empower on all by itself.

I have no builds in the character planner. It doesn't really work for my way of thinking about things.

I think Evasion is extremely useful by level 7 -- I'd really want to take it before, but I just gotta get to Haste. The latest I'd consider it would be 9, so as to get Firewall ASAP. But personally I would not be happy with that. Evasion is ridiculous.

STR should be fine with an item. 14 can carry plenty of ****. Honestly I'd really hate to see points go there. It adds so little.

"Force" enhancements are for Repair! I wish I could fit the full IV.

Heighten is particularly relevant for crowd control, such as Web. It keeps a lot of spells from becoming useless.

[Zorminster]

Yea, i realized that the force also affected repair ;p I've finally finished going through and here's my 20 levels. I gave in to the desire for a better will save and will suffer through with only a str item ;p I've opted for evasion at 9 (I gotta have my firewall) as opposed to 7 and have opted to try to buffer my will save a bit. Anyway, heres the highlights with the full build following.

--Assuming +15 skill items and +6 int item.
DD / Search: 33+15+3= 61 +4 GH + 2 luck + 2 skill boost= 69
OL: 19+15 = 34 +4 GH +2 Luck + 2 skill boost = 42
Spot: 26 + 15 = 41 +4 GH = 45

Solid saves 12/18/15 +5 resistance +2 luck +4 GH = 23/29/26

PST-- wheres this +2 luck bonus coming from that you're counting on BTW? I know i can grab +1 from voice of the master

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Neutral Good Warforged Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 236
Spell Points: 1573 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 18
Will: 15

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength              8                  8                    8
Dexterity             8                  8                    8
Constitution         17                 17                   19
Intelligence         18                 25                   28
Wisdom               13                 14                   14
Charisma              6                  6                    6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               3                  3                    3
Bluff                -2                 -2                   -2
Concentration         5                 27                   27
Diplomacy            -2                 -2                   -2
Disable Device        8                 32                   33
Haggle                2                  2                    2
Heal                  1                  2                    2
Hide                 -1                 -1                   -1
Intimidate           -2                 -2                   -2
Jump                  3                  5                    5
Listen                1                  2                    2
Move Silently        -1                 -1                   -1
Open Lock             3                 18                   19
Perform              n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                8                 13                   13
Search                8                 32                   33
Spot                  5                 25                   26
Swim                  3                  3                    3
Tumble                3                  3                    3
Use Magic Device      2                  2                    2

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Repair (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+7)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Selected) Iron Will


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Force I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation IV
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Hardiness I
Enhancement: Warforged Hardiness II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I

[Thanimal]

PST-- wheres this +2 luck bonus coming from that you're counting on BTW? I know i can grab +1 from voice of the master

Head of Gola Fan. Actually I've never owned one. I'm an optimization guy -- don't have the time or interest to grind for gear.

Build looks great to me!

[Zorminster]

For anyone who may have become interested in replicating this build, heres some relevant info:

Just hit level 8 a short while ago. Everything has gone pretty smooth except greymoon- running the sonic trap without evasion still requires you be able to time the trap at least halfway- this isn't a big deal.

Once you acquire firewall, it's time to get rid of acid-- for me at least. The acid 'equivalents' of the firespells just start to be gimp comparatively. I hate to be a conformist in that respect- because acid is REALLY cool looking - but i'm more of a power gamer than a non-conformist. lol.

Also- with regard to acid- acid spray IS burning hands except green and does acid damage. They litterally changed damage type and color and thats it- acid spray will set wooden furniture and bookshelves on fire and burn away fogs and webs.

I've been able to clear most the major content up to this level with no issues (STK, Delaras, Greymoon [I go back for Co6 in at 9 usually], Tangleroot) with regard to traps and boxes. I've had +5 spot/search/disable/open lock items up till now. I've got some 7 spot and 7 disable but i'm lacking in the OL- as such, I can only open the last shrine in Tear on a 15 or better, with heroism, +5 tools, and a skillboost. So if you're going to run this build- MAKE SURE YOUVE GOT ALL YOU CAN TO OPEN LOCKS. You may want to bring a dex item along (or at least a wand of cats grace) to help buffer you. I'll update again if locks continue to be a problem or are mostly resolved once i pickup a +7 OL and a wand as well as getting my rogue level. I imagine next level will resolve the issues (i'll be picking 7 ranks of OL).

Casting has been good so far as has surviveability. I've been swinging a +3 greataxe since as soon as I could and doing fine. Used a +1 ghost touched or a +1 holy in delaras and still did great. Key spells for melee are blur and shield. You'll definitely want to keep those on you to help mitigate hits since your AC will be very low.

[Zorminster]

Getting the rogue level makes a world of difference. I regret not having taken it at 7- i didn't have the mana to really put out many firewalls at 8 anyway and would have been better served in sorrowdusk by having evasion.

Also: I have determined that Hiding in Plain Sight is a terrible, awful, histerical quest to run with buddies who don't listen when you mention 'Hey, by the way, this place is FULL and i mean FULL.... yes, full like after the chinese buffet....FULL of traps.' and then they all walk in and die on the spikes and acid trap at the entrance despite warning as the enemies opened the passage. The whole shenanigan filled experience was capped off by me dying in the turbine at the end of the swim because i couldn't locate the valve.... i finally targetted it with Q and stopped to look around at where it was....yea, i stopped with my head lined up on a turbine blade without realzing it. Lost focus and ate enough rotations to die and have my stone fall all the way down the shaft pipe.

The greataxe got to hang out some more in Tear of Dhakan but it's seeing less and less time. I'm offhanding a scepter of the magi and mainhanding either spell pen for ennervation/PK or a superior combustion item for ray/fireball/wall. I also ended up picking up the first spell pen enhancement... thinking i'll likely give a pass on the warforged constitution- it's only 20 health in the end and a chunk of points that could be better spent I think. We'll see how it works out when i get there though.

[Zorminster]

Level 13. Things are going well and everything is starting to shape up. Finally picked up some more updated gear for disable, search, spot, and open locks and life is MUCH better now. Can do the cabal trap and chest as well as everything i've come up against. Got heighten so charm person is back in the game for crucible runs and the gnolls atop the maze. Just picked up 13 so i've got access to GH, disintegrate, Flesh to stone, and more fun bits now. It's a shame spell slots are so limited atm >.<

Not done any more swinging in melee really though; I do have a +3 cursespewing scimmy though and now that i've got tensers transformation that might be something i look into again for certain situations. I certainly don't see myself keeping TT prepared most of the time though.

The new issue of the moment: Hotbars. Too many things i need/want and tew few buttons since i' can't map my mouses extras within the game. been running with a weapon swap on 1, magic missles 2, scorching ray 3, firewall 4, alt4 is coc, 5 for fireball, 6 disintegrate. ALT 1-2-3 is spell pen weapon swap, ennervation, pk in that order. not really happy with my COC or disintegrate keys though. Probably using fireball the least of my first 6 keys though so i may swap it and disin.

[pdavis]

how do you get 5-6 lvls in 2-3 days ? :F

that always amazes me how people are leveling so fast....

[kamimitsu]

Maximize is far more efficient than Empower.

I've never heard anybody say Enlarge was worthwhile, but that doesn't prove it isn't.

Your skill points will be fine -- there is really one skill a Wizard needs (Concentration) and you'll have it along with sufficient trap skills with an INT of 18. But eating a +2 Tome at 7 is still obviously good if you don't mind the expense. Pick up some Jump.

I kept wanting to take Enlarge on my WF Wiz/Rog, but was dissuaded every time. I finally got around to getting it at 18, and boy do I LOOOoooooove it. My build is a shadowmage, so sneaking into a safe position and then energy draining a monster waaaay over there (that won't see or agro on me) is great. I'm still playing around with other 'non agro' generating spells, but if you like sneaky play, it's the bees knees for enervate and energy drain.

[Ardkor]

Also: I have determined that Hiding in Plain Sight is a terrible, awful, histerical quest to run with buddies who don't listen when you mention 'Hey, by the way, this place is FULL and i mean FULL.... yes, full like after the chinese buffet....FULL of traps.' and then they all walk in and die on the spikes and acid trap at the entrance despite warning as the enemies opened the passage. The whole shenanigan filled experience was capped off by me dying in the turbine at the end of the swim because i couldn't locate the valve.... i finally targetted it with Q and stopped to look around at where it was....yea, i stopped with my head lined up on a turbine blade without realzing it. Lost focus and ate enough rotations to die and have my stone fall all the way down the shaft pipe.

This is going into my notebook, as a profound warning from one professional to another. I've not done this quest yet, don't even know where to find it, but boy am I going to watch for it. I love traps in the game, and this quest sounds like Tomb of Horrors in the old pnp game...