Lvl 20 to 40 content PvP/Castles/Relics/Vaults

[Uska]

I like that you enjoy the game and your ideas to make things more enjoyable for you. I just can't get behing them personally, and I am quite vehemently opposed to the direction you suggest as I have seen it first hand destroy games I loved for years. Just for discussion purposese, here's why.



While its true that various editions brought in things like extremely silly "Immortals" stuff, through 3rd Edition's "Epic" into 4th Edition's standard level 30 cap, D&D has never really embraced beyond 20th level. Characters become so powerful that the gaming is just dull. You did mention risk/reward and this is why 20+ sucks. There's zero risk whatsoever if I can destroy the universe with a thought or beat a god's face in with half a rock, causing the games to rapidly accelerate beyond the ridiculous. Yes, Eberron is an extremely "high magic" setting, but there comes a point when it just gets too much.




Star Wars Galaxies did exactly this. Things were going well, it was an above average game with the very best atmosphere and fluff ever (if you liked Star Wars that is) Shiny new expansions brought extremely-hard-to-become Jedi and Starships and exciting prospects. Then they had the dreaded Combat Rebalance which trashed the levelling system so they could implement the New Game Experience and bring the Empire / Rebellion war to fully realised PvP glory. In theory, it should have been great. What actually happened was that people left in droves. Overnight. They didn't like PvP and most definitely didn't like the constant griefing, ganking, loot robbery and expletive filled vulgar immaturity.

The game was built for PvE and PvP existed much the same as it does in DDO now. Introducing wide scale PvP absolutely and directly destroyed it. It took years to recover to the point where some people went back, but then they couldn't keep the servers up and closed a huge swathe of them and won't ever recover now that The Old Republic is around the corner.

City Of Heroes PvP is played by extremely few people as once again, it is a PvE designed game. Granted they did try to have seperate rulesets for powers in PvE and PvP, but still nobody really bothered. Of my extensive friends list, only one person played in the PvP zones more than a handful of novelty times.

Conversely, games like Tribes are still popular for PvP because they do it so very well. 8 years old and still going? With no PvE at all? It works because its built as a PvP game. Dark Age Of Camelot is perhaps the exception that a game can start out PvE and evolve into PvP. The Realm V Realm stuff there is very well done and still has many players I know. But it does exclude the PvE side. RvR players just don't bother with it. Warhammer Online and Age Of Conan had PvP promise but have had launch issues and bug problems which hampered the initial rush of new players staying around. Though they could still turn out to be very good and have a slice of marketshare purely because they were initially built to have an aspect of PvP.

DDO is not built for it, technically nor conceptually, so I'd much rather that this PvP stuff doesn't take away from the resources thrown at the PvE game I enjoy.


Maybe that sounds a lot like personal opinion, but I'm trying also to objectively point out why it would possibly be A Very Bad Thing for a game like DDO.

Have to disagree about one thing pvp was alive and well in SWG from the start at least where I hung around the battles between Anchorhead and Bestine were epic and it was great back in the days before vechiles and Jedi even later when they added jedi it was still fun to try to kill one and the joy of destroying someones AV-21 in the days before they could repair was fantastic. But no pvp here, we didnt start with in mind the classes dont fit it.

[Silverpoint]

PVP is a bad idea if you want to do that then go find another MMO!

[MagicianBlade]

Make an optional PVP zone sure, but not making us do PVP after 20. Also, no PVP if it affects PVE at all.

Where do you get idea epic levels are based on PVP in DnD?

I'd like to see an entire city of PvP. I'd also like to be able to cast the whole range of spells in town, even if they couldn't actually affect anyone. It'd be very nice to be able to show off.

[Danandez]

I like that you enjoy the game and your ideas to make things more enjoyable for you. I just can't get behing them personally, and I am quite vehemently opposed to the direction you suggest as I have seen it first hand destroy games I loved for years. Just for discussion purposese, here's why.



While its true that various editions brought in things like extremely silly "Immortals" stuff, through 3rd Edition's "Epic" into 4th Edition's standard level 30 cap, D&D has never really embraced beyond 20th level. Characters become so powerful that the gaming is just dull. You did mention risk/reward and this is why 20+ sucks. There's zero risk whatsoever if I can destroy the universe with a thought or beat a god's face in with half a rock, causing the games to rapidly accelerate beyond the ridiculous. Yes, Eberron is an extremely "high magic" setting, but there comes a point when it just gets too much.




Star Wars Galaxies did exactly this. Things were going well, it was an above average game with the very best atmosphere and fluff ever (if you liked Star Wars that is) Shiny new expansions brought extremely-hard-to-become Jedi and Starships and exciting prospects. Then they had the dreaded Combat Rebalance which trashed the levelling system so they could implement the New Game Experience and bring the Empire / Rebellion war to fully realised PvP glory. In theory, it should have been great. What actually happened was that people left in droves. Overnight. They didn't like PvP and most definitely didn't like the constant griefing, ganking, loot robbery and expletive filled vulgar immaturity.

The game was built for PvE and PvP existed much the same as it does in DDO now. Introducing wide scale PvP absolutely and directly destroyed it. It took years to recover to the point where some people went back, but then they couldn't keep the servers up and closed a huge swathe of them and won't ever recover now that The Old Republic is around the corner.

City Of Heroes PvP is played by extremely few people as once again, it is a PvE designed game. Granted they did try to have seperate rulesets for powers in PvE and PvP, but still nobody really bothered. Of my extensive friends list, only one person played in the PvP zones more than a handful of novelty times.

Conversely, games like Tribes are still popular for PvP because they do it so very well. 8 years old and still going? With no PvE at all? It works because its built as a PvP game. Dark Age Of Camelot is perhaps the exception that a game can start out PvE and evolve into PvP. The Realm V Realm stuff there is very well done and still has many players I know. But it does exclude the PvE side. RvR players just don't bother with it. Warhammer Online and Age Of Conan had PvP promise but have had launch issues and bug problems which hampered the initial rush of new players staying around. Though they could still turn out to be very good and have a slice of marketshare purely because they were initially built to have an aspect of PvP.

DDO is not built for it, technically nor conceptually, so I'd much rather that this PvP stuff doesn't take away from the resources thrown at the PvE game I enjoy.


Maybe that sounds a lot like personal opinion, but I'm trying also to objectively point out why it would possibly be A Very Bad Thing for a game like DDO.

First off thank you for your understand that this is a suggestion, and not a demand, I find it an oxymoron to where the self proclamed more civilized gamers cannot have a decent discussion, instead paranoia takes hold and they find themselves screaming at me to find another game.

You have a good point to where taking ddo past 20 people will be too powerful and god like. To be honest I have yet to experience end game content in this game, I am a little over mid game right now and happy with it. The main reason I suggested idea is that I do see the level 20 cap coming up and I am thinking what happens from there, so I look what what seems to be underdevolped. And of course the first thing I notice that is underdevolped is the guild system and player interaction. So my thought spawns forth from the idea of how do you expand on those to make a better game.

I am a bit of a 13+ year vet when it comes to playing MMOs, I still don't agree with you that PvP destroys games and I stick to my guns that its bad RvsR systems that do. SWG is a great example. I was there when the player base left, pvp was alive and well before the majority ditched that game, the reason being was for a couple of reasons, but not pvp. First reason is they did away with an entire class the Tera Kasi which was one hell of a grind to get and they just wiped it off the map. Second was them doing away with the difficulty of becoming a Jedi. So now you have everyone in game being a jedi. Which goes back to my point of all reward no risk makes for a terrible game. You get all the reward of becoming a Jedi with out taking the risk to become one. First off that leaves gamers bitter for the ones that did have to grind it out, and second there is no challenge which makes the game boring.

The same holds true in games like World of Warcraft. PvP exists in that game, but it is terrible because there is no risk vs rewards system. Again it is all reward for those who have the best gear, and no risk because players cannot lose what they have as a concequence. So you have everyone running around in god like gear all the time and those who cannot obtain it because they do not have the right connections. This leads to bordem and griefing by the destoryers, and fustration and bordem by the have nots. Pretty much a terrible system.

The reason why pvp was successful in other games was because a good Risk vs Rewards system like UO and Shadowbane. However UO graphics and gameplay are badly outdated. UO begun to lose its player base when it introduced trammel and later insured items which made it that you didnt drop certain items and therefore destroying the risk vs reward system. Shadowbane could not control the hacks and bugs that eventually lead to its downfall. If you died in these games you lost parts of what you carried on you which meant you could not always walk around in the best gear, skill was needed to be successful, and it gave blacksmiths and crafters a reason to craft because items would be recirculated.

And last, I believe that immaturity exists everywhere in every game not just pvp communities, just look at some of the replies to this posting. I can give further examples of people not grouping because someone does not know the content, blocking people from there groups because they did not spec the way they wanted them too, or leaving or disbanding because english isnt the players first language. In some cases it is a shame we cannot PvP perhaps there would resolve a few issues creating a conscquence for immature player actions.

[Althotas]

If you want to PvP go to another game.

[Graypaws]

The reason why pvp was successful in other games was because a good Risk vs Rewards system like UO and Shadowbane. However UO graphics and gameplay are badly outdated. UO begun to lose its player base when it introduced trammel and later insured items which made it that you didnt drop certain items and therefore destroying the risk vs reward system. Shadowbane could not control the hacks and bugs that eventually lead to its downfall. If you died in these games you lost parts of what you carried on you which meant you could not always walk around in the best gear, skill was needed to be successful, and it gave blacksmiths and crafters a reason to craft because items would be recirculated.

Sorry, but you are wrong about UO. The playerbase for UO went way up after trammel was introduced. Felucca became a ghost town. The rush to get away from pvp was SO great, when trammel was first opened, every single server crashed due to overload. UO died off later due to badly implemented expansions, poor base game engine (an inherent deadend for character advancement baked right into the game, similar to COH), and several other better games. Wow's pvp system is flawed in that it was not apart of the original game and as such has caused a never ending circle of balancing tweaks (see nerf) to enable all the classes and specs to compete. COH, was a good example of why pvp should either start at the beginning or never be introduced. They added the arena as the base, to explore further pvp options, and within months, balancing nerfs came down the pipe that affected pve.

[RequiemVampie]

I'll start this off by saying:

/not signed

I agree that having PvP with actual gains would be the final nail for DDO. People only PvP because the like the challenge it posses opposed to game AI or to test their latest toon against others. I don't PvP. I have no use for it.

While the guild hall, keep, or castle is a good idea, the siege warfare aspect of it sucks. People in guilds are not always on at all times and their home could be constantly destroyed if only a few people were to show up.

As for the levels...it will be a while before we see another level increase. Even then, not that great of an increase. Usually 4 or 5 levels at most.

Why anyone would make or play a game centered on PvP is beyond me.

Again....

/not signed

[enochiancub]

Not going to tell you to go to another game cause thats just rude. However I really would rather not see pvp here, if for nothing else than it would take precious dev time away from developing new content and it would demand that classes be "balanced" when they just realy should not be.


Idea for the fluff aspects i.e. guild halls and such are kinda nice. Though again I'd rather see more content and the rest of the races/classes.

Either way, was a very nicely laid out post. Sorry you caught so much flack for it.

[CrimsonEagle]

If they implement what you suggest I would cancel my yearly subscription so quick that their eyes would spin. It would be time for me to move on.

There are some things that they have done in this game since I have been here that I have agreed with, even though it would weaken my characters, and other things that have infuriated me because it pretty much destroyed them.

No matter though, I stayed and adapted because all in all, I love the game.

What you have suggested would be my proverbial line in the sand.

No.......just no.

[Quarks]

What the OP really wants is Ultima Online, before Trammel was created. Trust me, the open pvp, dry-looting pker type was killing that game. And anything remotely close to that in DDO would be the final nail.

While I strongly disagree with the OP's suggestion, I must disagree with this statement even more.

No PK killed UO. Trammel did. Trammel killed teamwork and any kind of sense of accomplishment that once was an integral part of UO. Trammel was the start of the easy button and it went very steeply downhill from there. Yes the game still exists, but what a sorry figure it is, compared to what it used to be...

[Graypaws]

While I strongly disagree with the OP's suggestion, I must disagree with this statement even more.

No PK killed UO. Trammel did. Trammel killed teamwork and any kind of sense of accomplishment that once was an integral part of UO. Trammel was the start of the easy button and it went very steeply downhill from there. Yes the game still exists, but what a sorry figure it is, compared to what it used to be...

I already gave my reasons for what I believe killed UO, just read above. It sure wasnt trammel. And I said pvp was killing it, not what killed it. UO wasnt newbie friendly at all when felucca was the only facet.

Aside from that, DDO does NOT need pvp nor the stupid balancing act that would come with it.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Well, I like your suggestions.

And I do want to see Epic lvls.

I really want to see Epic lvls.

But I actually hope they will keep the cap at 20 for awhile. And work on other things first.

(Druids!!!!!!)

Give us awhile for the game to catch up to us.

[Zippo]

There were questions about level 20 to 40 and siege being relevant in D&D. The rule set for siege wasn't a module but rather was written in the AD&D 20-40 core books for people who wanted to progress there character past the 20th level. Basically these TSR books gave players an option for those who wanted to spend thier aquired wealth on something. Instructions, stats, and prices of various siege equipement, castles, keeps etc were available in those core books. There was even a core book for levels 40 through 60 to where character was pretty much deemed immortal/god like and they had a rule set for that too, although I never got that high.

I do not agree that pvp kills games, or looting, etc. What really kills games is a bad risk vs rewards system. This game currently happens to have a good RvsR system. You enter a dungeon, theres a certain amount of risk involved and you get rewarded depending on how much risk you take (aka difficulty level). What makes a bad game is when you have all rewards and no risk, via castles or keeps that just sit there providing all the comfort and fluff but with no risk of losing it. Lets face it, castles or kings were not created by people who didnt take risks, to have otherwise would be pointless imo. You would just have people logging on every few months to refresh there castle to look at the junk they never use.

I agree with you on the point that players shouldn't be forced to pvp, but for the ones that enjoy people this castle and keep option should be made available for those that like pvp. Perhaps make castle and keeps and the zone available to people who join PvP guilds only. Either way I like the game how it is, and I intend to keep on playing it, this just happens to be my suggestion to make it better and create a more interesting endgame.

"Not Gonna Do It!"

[Zippo]

First off thank you for your understand that this is a suggestion, and not a demand, I find it an oxymoron to where the self proclamed more civilized gamers cannot have a decent discussion, instead paranoia takes hold and they find themselves screaming at me to find another game.

It's because we've had this conversation a 100 different times already. You think your the first to voice these kind of ideas? Think again. While Turbine relented and eventually gave a few pvp pits in the taverns for people who wanted to do so, it just won't go any further then that. To much of the player base will refuse to stand around and allow for the massive amounts of PVE balancing required to placate a few PVP'rs. SO you need to understand that its not paranoia, it is annoyance of the same thing being brought up once again.

[Robi3.0]

L
/snip
PvP

Towns should be somewhat safe havens with guards who will protect the non agressors.

/snip

Since when have city guard been able to protect anyone from anything? In my 20 level all I remember doing is saving city guards' asses and doing their jobs.

[Mistinarperadnacles]

< A most excellently written rep worthy post >

That's a very good reply. I guess my dislike of PvP is coloured not by PvP itself, but more the problems (perhaps inherent) that come with it.

You're right on in that PvP of itself is not a bad thing and that growth, expansion and new challenges are great lifeblood for any game.

You're also experiencing a different view of SWG than I did, but I suppose that's because we're different gamers. I remember doing some of the PvP stuff in Bestine I believe, but didn't get into it. I knew it was there, and I didn't mind, but I didn't participate and that was fine. I could choose to do that. Still, everyone I knew, which were players more like minded and not fans of PvP their reason for leaving was that overnight you couldn't get off a shuttle without being immediately ganked by a hoard of PK-ing 'tards.

I feel the only way to have PvP in MMOs is to include it from the ground up. So the system can be built properly to account for it without needing the constant flow of nerfs and changes. This way, players know what to expect and are emracing of the changes.

I feel that the problem for PvP in DDO is twofold. Firstly, the players. It seems to me that a majority of the playerbase are not fans of PvP. The problem this causes is that if introduced in a large scale way, optional or not, many players of this mindset would (as shown in the thread) leave. As a non-PvP game, DDO is likely to attract players that have no interest in it as well as those more negatively opposed to it. These anti-PvP players would be extremely unhappy.

Players with a more middleground view would be happy until they try this new PvP stuff and eventually run across an unfortunate side effect of PvP - the immature griefer. They get hopelessly ganked and then some trash talking 12 year old steals their stuff? Their Greensteel or Dragontouched that could have taken months to get? This leaves them feeling akin to being mugged and they have no desire to experience that again.

Players more pro PvP could feel frustrated by the opposition to what they know can be great fun and this can sometimes escalate into PvP wars with the strongy voiced of each side upsetting the other. (as happens here.)

Secondly, the system couldn't handle it. Step into a PvP pit with any spellcaster if you dare. Energy Drain, Bestow Curse, Flesh To Stone, few whacks with a Wounding weapon. You're sitting there a long time. Let alone if they're powerful enough to throw Mordenkainen's Disjunction at you. Ok. So "no spellcasters" event. Consistently owned by the monk splash build with a standing 80AC that boosts to 110ish. Dungeons and Dragons PC characters have always been massively powerful in the pen and pencil game. They've translated to being massively powerful in DDO with the addition of massively powerful loot. The imbalance betweeen characters can be so very huge in DDO that so much work would be required to have anything approaching the balance required for a large scale PvP system.

Perhaps if they ever do look at relaunching DDO ala Asherons Call and become DDO2 it might be something they consider including from the get go. I wouldn't mind that at all. But to try and shoehorn it in where it just isn't gonna fit just seems to me like a massive waste of effort.

I'm all for suggestions and I really wouldn't mind if the PvP Challenege system they brought in with Mod9 were to be expanded a little. Perhaps they could utilise the Threanal Arena and have some proper organised PvP duels and party V party rumbles. Some players have organised events for their server that have always looked like great fun.

I wouldn't like to see an impelementation of any PvP beyond that though.

As for approaching the level cap and feeling that it might be a ceiling for you, new introductions for quests and the game system that are testing on beta server now look set to potentially greatly increase the longevity of the levelling system. Whether it ends up feeling like just an artificially big grind or not I don't know yet.