Drow are not THAT good! (a rant)

[Thanimal]

So, I've saved enough brownie points to trade them in for an Egomaniacal Rant!

That said, I'm going to try to make this educational.

I've noticed that practically every new builder lately is posting builds as Drow. The appeal of Drow is pretty obvious: They have a virtual 32 points, and can more easily start at 18 or 20 in some stats that seem pretty important. But look closer and the story changes. I've mapped out probably over 100 builds on paper (or spreadsheet), and in so doing, I've very rarely found that one was optimal as a Drow, even compared to a 28-point alternative. (My discussion here is mainly about that 28-point alternative, although obviously when you have 32 points for all the other races that makes Drow even relatively less appealing.)

Before I move on to further Drow-bashing, let me list the (only) two general build categories for which Drow is the optimal choice.

1) All-out-control arcane. This can be a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard. If you want to land the most devastating control spells as your main tactic, then every point of DC matters. Such a build must start with INT or CHA at 20 -- if you don't choose to do that then you aren't all-out-control and you should pick a different race. Personally, I would never play such a build due to its uber-squishiness, but it absolutely is an optimal build for its goals.

2) Finesse Intimitank. If you aren't Finesse, then go Dwarf or Warforged. And you aren't intimidating, then go Halfling. But if you insist on Finesse AND Intimitanking, then Drow is likely to be the way to go. I think most people would consider this to be a Bad Build(TM), but actually I strongly disagree. One of my favorite characters is my Drow Rogue Intimitank (linked below) and I've been working with a guildmate on a Paladin-based Finesse Intimitank that is working out great so far.

EDIT 2009/10/08: This thread turned out more fun than I expected, and some posters have convinced me that there is another build for which Drow is an optimal choice, depending on exactly what you value most. (The other choice is Human -- better in some ways, worse in others.)

3) all-out DPS Paladin 20. Here the Drow can reach Divine Might IV (with a good Tome) without having to gimp other stats.

Below this point, everything I say should be considered to end with "unless you are making one of the above three builds."

Now let me try to explain why Drow are not the best choice for most builds. Firstly, let's look at a high level. There are really very few builds that require a good DEX, INT, and CHA, so typically at least one of those bonuses is offering almost nothing. Meanwhile, there are NO builds that can comfortably dump CON, so the penalty on that stat is quite painful. Essentially, Dwarf and Warforged have 6 more points of CON than Drow do, often allowing them to make up other stat deficiencies.

In addition, starting stats are not the real story of a build. What matters is where you can get on things like DPS, AC, saves, hit points, self-healing, etc. -- the stats that directly effectly the game. Underlying attributes help, of course, but should never be the final judge of what race to pick.

Next, the Drow's racial abilities and enhancements are mostly pretty lame. The additional damage on Rapiers is almost certainly the best one, but Dwarf and Elf also have racial weapon bonuses, and WF can apply +3 (PA enh) and Halfling can apply +8 Sneak-Attack to *any* weapon.
Spell resistance is quite nice at low levels, but eventually is superceded by much better buffs from a Cleric.

So now I'll look at a few common build types:

Bards. I list this first, because I think it's the single biggest misimpression about Drow. What it comes down to is: Meleeing Bards desperately need CON (it's nearly impossible to have good AC as a Bard) and generalist Bards desperately need feats. Also, Bards have no use whatsoever for INT, and usually can't benefit much from an extreme DEX. All-in-all, it's a pretty poor fit for a Drow (ok, one time I'm gonna explicitly say: unless you are making one of the above three builds -- now please remember it is implied hereafter!) If you're making a high-DPS Bard, go with Dwarf or Halfling (or even WF). If you're making a generalist pure-Bard, go with Human. PLEASE don't plan to run into the fray with your no-AC-havin' Bard with a starting CON of 8...

Arcanes. For arcanes, CON is usually the second most important stat. In fact, while your casting must be GOOD, the relative benefit of the last few points of CON may actually exceed the relative benefit of the last few points of INT or CHA. A caster who is alive can cast more spell than one with more spell points... It's not really feasible to have good AC, so you need HP to give yourself enough cushion to avoid being regularly one-shotted -- in this game it is impossible to avoid ALL aggro. So the CON penalty alone makes Drow a poor choice. Then add in the fact that Warforged arcanes can self-Reconstruct, and the choice of race gets pretty obvious. Yeah, WF Sorcs take it on the chin on CHA. And, yeah, WF Sorcs hold most of the game's most impressive soloing feats...

DPS builds (not focused on sneak attack). Here again the CON penalty is a huge liability, since a pure DPS build has (at best) marginal AC and will have aggro very frequently. This makes HP mandatory. In addition, Warforged have significant advantages for DPSing -- notably the ability to add +3 damage (PA enh) to the game's best one-handed weapon (Khopesh) and the ability to increase glancing blow chances on THF. In some cases a Dwarf may be slightly better because of AC-in-armor enhancements, and in some cases a Human may be slightly better when an extra feat is desperately needed.

sneak-attack DPS builds. Here, Halfling is a slam-dunk. Regardless of STR-based vs. DEX-based, you'll simply deal more Sneak Attack damage as a Halfling. Oh, and you'll also have better AC and saves than any other race.

Armored tanks. This one is so obvious that I really haven't seen anybody post anything except Warforged, Dwarves, and Humans, so I think I'll leave it alone.

Unarmored tanks. Thanks to the Monk splash, it's quite possible to tank without armor these days. If you're willing to rely entirely on hate bonuses (fingers crossed they fix them!!), then Halfling is a great choice here -- it has that highest AC and save potential in the game. If you plan to Intimidate, though, then Halfling's 4-point penalty is a little rough. And Warforged brings some pretty major tanking benefits, including immunites, DR, great AC without using nearly as many slots, and just generally looking like a tank .

Pure trap-monkey. Ok, I admit the Drow is the optimal choice for this build. BUT this build is inherently suboptimal. There is no important situation in the game where a pure trap-monkey build is better than a Rogue who specializes in something else (most likely DPS) and puts a reasonable investment into trap skills. If you don't believe me on this, ask some power gamers (and then cover your ears...)

Cleric. I don't think I've seen too many folks trying out Drow for their Clerics, since most Clerics have no need for DEX or INT, and only marginal need for CHA, whereas CON is quite useful. So no need for myth-busting on this one.

OK! Thanks for letting me get that off my chest...

[cipher_nemo4]

Good points there. Yet you've completed ignored the fun factor.

Not only is there a nice possibility of DEX and INT heavy classes/multi-classing, the Drow provide something different to explore and enjoy. If one doesn't focus on race-specific feats, why worry about it? Besides, doing hardcore end-game raiding and such isn't on the menu for the sheer number of other, more casual gamers in DDO. Just look at how the DDO population exploded with offering the Free-2-Play option. Most of these people are going to have less than perfect builds. Even if raiding is important to some, the difference between a weak and strong build in a raid of 12 isn't going to affect the outcome as much as other factors.

Fretting over a build when it comes to a combination of race, classes, and feats to achieve the best stats in specific areas is just overkill. Why? That D20 roll makes a greater difference than a near-perfect build. That ties into the fun factor as well, which is greatly diminished by opting for some cookie-cutter build.

I certainly understand the desire to tweak builds and get the best stats you can out of something, but we do this at what cost? Avoiding a race just because the more popular/strong builds can get a little more out of other races? Does +/- 1 here or there make that much difference at end-game? Are most DDO gamers going to be completely distraught over not have a more perfect build? Probably not.

I can see the value of your argument for those claiming the drow is a superior race for some builds, but in the end, it really doesn't make that much difference.

[Thanimal]

Good points there. Yet you've completed ignored the fun factor.

The really funny part is that I especially can't imagine making a Drow for fun factor! My least favorite part about Vandt is that he looks like a such a dufus.

Being slightly more serious: I actually do recognize that the ENTIRE purpose of DDO in entertainment. For me optimization and entertainment are just about the same thing.

But even for those "normal people" I keep hearing rumors about, fun is usually at least loosely tied to performance. While some suboptimal decisions are made on purpose -- and I'm completely fine with that -- many are made by mistake. I only want to help people who are TRYING to make an optimal build using Drow, and would rather play a different race if they knew it were better.

Well, mostly I just wanted to rant about Drow! But I have to claim SOME purpose...

[DakFrost]

Hey! I love playing my Drow caster...so much so I rolled up another just like him just to help new guildies.

level 17 and 35 Chr....I still need my +3 tome

[Aerendil]

Drow Sorc or Wiz. Starting 20 in casting stat, and leave Con at 6.

The real test of skill! (read: perserverence and slightly sadistic)


That said, yeah, Drow are certainly a nice bonus for low-level folk who haven't unlocked 1750. Even on some regular builds, they do work out better overall. But once you get the 32 pt builds, most other classes do tend to outshine them.

Also, one error with your example #1 - a Drow arcane or bard can start at a *mere* 18 cha/int, which puts them on par with any other class out of the gate, but it would cost them far few starting points which they could then allocate elsewhere. This may prove beneficial in certain builds.

For example (and one you missed!), a Drow Paladin can easily start with 16 or 17 CHA and barely bat an eyelash, where most other races would be hard-pressed to build a high-CHA Paladin without leaving themselves short elsewhere.

[Thanimal]

...Drow are certainly a nice bonus for low-level folk who haven't unlocked 1750.

On that we disagree. I've stated all the builds that I've found optimal as Drow compared to 28-pointer in other races.

Also, one error with your example #1 - a Drow arcane or bard can start at a *mere* 18 cha/int, which puts them on par with any other class out of the gate, but it would cost them far few starting points which they could then allocate elsewhere. This may prove beneficial in certain builds.

"May" indeed, but I've not seen it. Arcanes can generally dump most stats, so starting at 18 is not much of a burden for any race. And to me a Bard starting at 18 is almost a no-man's land. It's so hard for a Bard to match the DC of the arcanes that I think you either have to a) not try or b) go all out and start with a CHA of 20.

For example (and one you missed!), a Drow Paladin can easily start with 16 or 17 CHA and barely bat an eyelash, where most other races would be hard-pressed to build a high-CHA Paladin without leaving themselves short elsewhere.

I'm really surprised I left that out, because I think Paladin falls right behind Bard in terms of people assuming Drow is the best choice when it usually isn't. I'll have to extend my rant when I get a chance! (Who knows, maybe I'll discover I'm wrong along the way! It's happened before. I think.)

[jeenne]

Drow Sorc or Wiz. Starting 20 in casting stat, and leave Con at 6.

The real test of skill! (read: perserverence and slightly sadistic)


That said, yeah, Drow are certainly a nice bonus for low-level folk who haven't unlocked 1750. Even on some regular builds, they do work out better overall. But once you get the 32 pt builds, most other classes do tend to outshine them.

Also, one error with your example #1 - a Drow arcane or bard can start at a *mere* 18 cha/int, which puts them on par with any other class out of the gate, but it would cost them far few starting points which they could then allocate elsewhere. This may prove beneficial in certain builds.

For example (and one you missed!), a Drow Paladin can easily start with 16 or 17 CHA and barely bat an eyelash, where most other races would be hard-pressed to build a high-CHA Paladin without leaving themselves short elsewhere.

Agree with you here. Drow is a great option until one unlocks the 32 point build. And I actually love playing my drow cleric and pally .

I do have to say a Drow is not all that great with the racial enhancements though. But overall i prefer playing the Drow over the 28 point build.

[Thanimal]

Hey! I love playing my Drow caster...so much so I rolled up another just like him just to help new guildies.

level 17 and 35 Chr....I still need my +3 tome

OUR new guildies. I haven't left the game quite yet!!

And you do realize that Likely is pretty much the posterboy for Optimal Drow Build Category #1, right?

(Ok, I've had my fun. I'm gonna let this thread die now.)

[rimble]

Calm down OCD optimizer, everything will be okay. These people will survive with 20 less hit points, or 1 less hit/damage, or whatever. Grab a beer, smoke a bowl, and if you touch something with your left hand, make sure you touch it with your right too so you don't go insane from uneven touching of things.

[Thanimal]

Calm down OCD optimizer, everything will be okay. These people will survive with 20 less hit points, or 1 less hit/damage, or whatever. Grab a beer, smoke a bowl, and if you touch something with your left hand, make sure you touch it with your right too so you don't go insane from uneven touching of things.

+1 rep!

[Caine52184]

Calm down OCD optimizer, everything will be okay. These people will survive with 20 less hit points, or 1 less hit/damage, or whatever. Grab a beer, smoke a bowl, and if you touch something with your left hand, make sure you touch it with your right too so you don't go insane from uneven touching of things.

Now that was funny lol... +1 for the laugh

[Strakeln]

Hopefully this will be resolved now that 32-point buys will be available in the store.

I have a friend with an account full of Drow that will likely be coming back so he can roll the 32-point builds he actually wanted to try (the 1750 grind was just too boring for him).