Drow are not THAT good! (a rant)

[Thanimal]

Mind you that I dont have a single Drow character, but for appearances, not Min/Max.

Shhhh. You're gonna get kicked out of Legion!

[Thanimal]

Hey! I love playing my Drow caster...so much so I rolled up another just like him just to help new guildies.

level 17 and 35 Chr....I still need my +3 tome

OUR new guildies. I haven't left the game quite yet!!

And you do realize that Likely is pretty much the posterboy for Optimal Drow Build Category #1, right?

(Ok, I've had my fun. I'm gonna let this thread die now.)

[Inspire]

Although it depends on stat allocation, really.

Actually is really not that much of a difference;

Drow 2wF Paladin usually starts - 15 15 12 10 9 17
Human 2wF Paladin usually starts - 16 15 13 8 9 15

If we break it down further, and cater to power gamers;

Drow -

15 + 5Level + 6Item + 4Tome + 2Crafted = 32
15 + 2Tome + 1Racial + 6Item = 24
12 + 4Tome + 6Item = 22
10
09 + 3Tome + 6Item = 18
17 + 3Tome + 6Item = 26

Human -

16 + 4Level + 6Item + 4Tome + 1Racial + 3Crafted = 34
15 + 3Tome + 6Item = 24
13 + 4Tome + 1Racial + 6Item = 24
08
09 + 3Tome + 6Item = 18
15 + 1Level + 4Tome + 6Item = 26

Both builds qualify for DM IV but the Human variant is more tome intensive, although they are both quite tome intensive. The Drow build here could have the same STR as the Human but would have to drop CHA by 1, craft a +3 exceptional STR ring or weapon and grind for a +4 Tome.

The main difference between the 2 builds is Khopesh vs. Rapier, both have advantages with the Paladin class.

[Xyfiel]

If they ever fix spell resistance on Drow, would that change anything? Anyway, I love Drow. I think the best build for Drow is a repeater rogue splash Bard. 16dex/16int/18cha/12con spellsinger. My main is arcane trickster 13wiz/6rogue/1fighter twf rapiers. Probably will reincarnate as 12wiz/6tempest/2rogue though. Tempest wasn't there when I made him.

[Galapas]

The drawback for the elf/drow con penalty is blown out of all proportion by almost the entire player base.

A drow is 1hp/level behind a halfling or human, and 2 behind a dwarf or WF.
If a human spends 4 enhancement points on a poit of con, the drow is 1.5 HP/lev behind.
If a dw or WF spend 6 enhancement points on con, then the drow is 3 HP/lev behind.

However, 4 or 6 enhancement points can buy a lot of class and racial toughness enhancements, at 10 HP each.

If we're talking about a character with combat expertise, that's 2 build points the drow saves, which can go into con.
If we're talking about a character with two weapon fighting, that's another 2 character points the drow saves.

Now if we were talking about 1 or 2 HP/lev, and characters that only got 4,6,8, 10 or 12 HP each time they levelled, that would be significnt. But that isn't the case. Everybody gets the 20 HP starting bonus, and eventually, greater false life , +6 con items, toughness feat, class and racial toughness enhancements. That 1-2 HP per level turns out to be less than 5% or 10%.

You must also consider the saves involved. Fort saves are the easiest ones to obviate. Death block, death ward, poison immunity , disease immunity, etc are all easy to get. Reflex saves get brutal. Resist energy goes only so far, and there is no resist energy holy. Another point of reflex save is much more valuable than another point of fort save.

There are obviously a lot of builds that would do better with a 28 pointer than a drow, but that has more to do with racial enhancements and abilities than it does with con.

[sirgog]

One more build where a Drow can be superior to other races: A melee-specced Cleric that wants to take Divine Might and dual-wield.

Here 32 point Human and Drow (maybe 32 point Halfling) are the only viable options, IMO.

This sort of build, while a tad unorthodox, can offer a lot to a party - a medium DPS melee that can throw a Bladebarrier, heal, and maybe even (although it's a stretch and would require some multiclassing) intimitank.

[Galapas]

I think almost any paladin will do better as a drow than any 28 pointer. The paladin has an overabundance of good enhancements. Paladins just won't be putting many points into their racial enhancements because the paladin enhancements are generally better.

Given that, and the incredible value charisma has to paladins now, I'd go drow.

I also think most builds with a rogue splash for evasion and functionality do better as drow. If you're going for just one or the other, maybe not.

[mdonais]

I am playing a drow not on this list should I delete him and start him over?

If so what race am I supposed to be playing?

I am a level 7 ranger, level 2 rogue. I have spot/search/pick lock/disarm around max.

I have around 20 strength and 28 dex. I dual wield rapier + short sword.

I am basically just going for melee dps with the ability to fill the rogue role in a group to help me get more groups.

I also really enjoy soloing, stealthing around, swapping between reasonable bow usage and great melee dps depending on the situation.

Let me know what race is optimal for this direction.

[FluffyCalico]

Yea, drow suck. And so do elf.

Too bad in the epic content since most things can NOT hit on a 2 their +2 to hit with rapier or scimitar are going to put them ahead in DPS over the races that don't have something simular.

Go ahead break out your calc and show me where 14 hits with a kopesh is better than 16 with a racial rapier or scimitar...
or 12 vs 14
or 17 vs 19

Only place kopesh is going to be better is on some 19 vs 19 mobs and very very few melee are going to hit all the new epic stuff on a 2.

[Junts]

I think almost any paladin will do better as a drow than any 28 pointer. The paladin has an overabundance of good enhancements. Paladins just won't be putting many points into their racial enhancements because the paladin enhancements are generally better.

Given that, and the incredible value charisma has to paladins now, I'd go drow.

I also think most builds with a rogue splash for evasion and functionality do better as drow. If you're going for just one or the other, maybe not.

32 point humans outperform as most varieties of paladin, unless you need the extreme charisma for the 4th divine might

paladins are so feat-starved that the human bonus feat is incredibly valuable, and human healing amplification works extremely well with lay on hands.

[Thanimal]

I am playing a drow not on this list should I delete him and start him over?

No. My little rant is about optimality, not playability. Drow are playable in almost every class combination. It's just they are not the optimal choice in most cases, even when many players think they are. (That's my claim based on my analysis; your analysis may vary.)

If so what race am I supposed to be playing?

The one you like.

I am a level 7 ranger, level 2 rogue. I have spot/search/pick lock/disarm around max.

The optimal version of this build direction is probably The Exploiter (18 Ranger/1 Rogue/1 Monk) and Human is the best choice, with Halfling also excellent.

[spifflove]

32 point humans outperform as most varieties of paladin, unless you need the extreme charisma for the 4th divine might.

Which you do, limiting humans to thf optimaly

paladins are so feat-starved that the human bonus feat is incredibly valuable, and human healing amplification works extremely well with lay on hands.

So if a drow has
1)toughness
3)power attack
6)extend
9) ic slash [later optional]
12)twf
15)itwf
18)gtwf

That means that humans have to take khopesh just to keep pace. They have no extra feat. On thf builds there is nothing gamebreaking that would put them above an elf featwise.

[Borror0]

Divine Might IV is about the only reason you could possibly want to be a drow. Even there, often that is not worth it.

[Strakeln]

Hopefully this will be resolved now that 32-point buys will be available in the store.

I have a friend with an account full of Drow that will likely be coming back so he can roll the 32-point builds he actually wanted to try (the 1750 grind was just too boring for him).

[Junts]

Which you do, limiting humans to thf optimaly


So if a drow has
1)toughness
3)power attack
6)extend
9) ic slash [later optional]
12)twf
15)itwf
18)gtwf

That means that humans have to take khopesh just to keep pace. They have no extra feat. On thf builds there is nothing gamebreaking that would put them above an elf featwise.

No, even most dps paladin builds are better off multiclassing, so only a twf pure drow has any merit over a like human build .. hitting 18 cha for dm3 is entirely in the grasp of a human build, and considering that pure twf paladin dps plays like a barbarian, most people will opt for a splash for evasion/feats/umd in some combo of rogue/monk, making drow irrelevant again. Further, even with rapier enhancements rapiers are pretty inferior to khopesh in pure dps output, and the small crit power advantage (1.95 vs 2.00) does not make rapier general dps superior. I get drow have some believers, but they're still inferior.

Its a ****** race, lets just face it, the only race on DDO that sucks more than drow are elves, who are even worse most of the time. Neither is good at anything important, and other races are pretty much universally better at anything you might design.

The title of this thread should be "drow aren't very good"

[krud]

assassin

oh, and i got one of those drow clerics. I agree, not a very good mix, unless I add 2 monk for evasion. The higher dex will help reflex saves.

[Monkey_Archer]

even with rapier enhancements rapiers are pretty inferior to khopesh in pure dps output

I prefer the phrase "khopesh is barely better dps if you hit on a 2+"

[Junts]

I prefer the phrase "khopesh is barely better dps if you hit on a 2+"

Every time I ran the numbers the difference was enough to notice; 10-15ish range.

I don't see a kotcIII pally having to-hit issues, I confess.

[Monkey_Archer]

Every time I ran the numbers the difference was enough to notice; 10-15ish range.

I don't see a kotcIII pally having to-hit issues, I confess.

Yes, i get the same numbers... until you factor in smites/DS then its more like ~5-10 dps differnce.

I have a typical pali achiving a max of about +46 to hit first swing endgame with lvl 20 bardsongs, recitation, +4 tomes, etc...
Even a 50 ac (which is not uncommon in hard/elite raiding) will put the drow version ahead...

[ddoer]

so you guys are going to offend all the drow in Ebberon?

for sorc, it has +1 cha. I think this factor alone is useful. You may say human could achieve the same DC in end game (if not -1), but consider not every one have +4 tome, LOTD, drow sorc is easier to get max DC.