Reincarnation Feedback: True Reincarnation

[CE2JRH123]

Thank you for your answer. If someone has actually TR and can confirm for me, I'd greatly appreciate that as well.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

Since TR is essentially an entirely new character with an entirely different body, I would hazard a guess that you would need to reacquire leveling sigils. TR mechanics work considerably different than LR and GR, so there's no particular reason to assume that something that works with them will also work with TR.

[mp1]

I only have 1 question, As I'm aware, TR will reset all your inventory slots to 3 and bank slots to 1. Where would all the excess go? Assuming I have all full inventory and bank. If they get transfered to some virtual bank, how long do we have to access this bank? Thank you.

[Natashaelle]

Since TR is essentially an entirely new character with an entirely different body, I would hazard a guess that you would need to reacquire leveling sigils. TR mechanics work considerably different than LR and GR, so there's no particular reason to assume that something that works with them will also work with TR.

Levelling sigils have potentially been purchased with Turbine Points, therefore (potentially) indirectly with $$$.

I cannot see that it would be desirable that one should lose the benefits of these purchases after TR, hence I cannot agree with your reasoning - besides, my own personal experience with Reincarnation, albeit not TR, strongly suggests that the benefits bestowed by these sigils will be persistent after TR.

... perhaps I should approach someone for an XP boost to level 20 on one of my F2P-based Lammania toons so that I can test this instead of this speculation...

[Natashaelle]

I only have 1 question, As I'm aware, TR will reset all your inventory slots to 3 and bank slots to 1. Where would all the excess go? Assuming I have all full inventory and bank. If they get transfered to some virtual bank, how long do we have to access this bank? Thank you.

I'm not sure how these will be treated in the final version of TR, but in test versions of Reincarnation that have acted in this manner, those items remained in those places, although they were inaccessible unless and until they were unlocked with favour.

It is possible that the final version of TR may leave these slots intact, and it is just as possible that, favour being zeroed, you will need to work to unlock them again.

Ultimately, it's DM's choice

[moorewr]

Have the wood tokens been removed from the store on Lamannia? Or did I just fail my spot check?

[ThatSwordGuy]

Has anyone other than me noticed that this is a near-exact clone of the Kingdom of Loathing ascention mechanic?

It works on KoL like this: you get class abilities, sortof like feats, and when you ascend you get to keep one skill and change your class. Since there's no multiclassing in KoL, ascention serves as a way to mix class abilities. The important thing to note, however, is that the character does not improve beyond what skills are available.

Now, looking at DDO, I view the +2 stat points as a sort of sugar-coating to sweeten a very illogical and bad idea. D&D already supports multiclassing, and most class combinations work rather well (unless you're mixing spellcaster levels 10/10, but that's a flaw inherent in D&Dv3 multiclassing, not DDO's fault.)

Because of how the point buy system works, the two extra points (and one passive bonus) is really not going to make the character more specialized as one class. Even if you do spend those two build points on a better multiclass it still doesn't fit with the already restricting D&D multiclassing system. (Ex: A Ftr 10/Clr 10 with 18 STR & WIS will have nice ability scores, but the caster level pretty much kills the multiclassing aspect.)

My main criticism is that it doesn't appear to lead anywhere interesting. Even if it were profitable to TR it seems odd to complete the cycle only to build a character that does the cycle harder or faster. Is the end goal of this mechanic to single-handedly defeat a raid? I would be much happier knowing that TR added a genuine new experience, rather than yet another milestone for devoted powerbuilders.

A less complicated (almost identical in its end result) would be to make Epic enhancement points available every XP milestone past 20. Why bother with the fancy bells and whistles?

EDIT: I had another "What if?" moment. What if ascending let the player keep a certain amount of Non-Prestige Enhancements (assuming for I-II-III-IV chains that they have to take them in order)? That'd be neat. It is a bit late in the developement process for a complete overhaul, though.

[Natashaelle]

Because of how the point buy system works, the two extra points (and one passive bonus) is really not going to make the character more specialized as one class. Even if you do spend those two build points on a better multiclass it still doesn't fit with the already restricting D&D multiclassing system. (Ex: A Ftr 10/Clr 10 with 18 STR & WIS will have nice ability scores, but the caster level pretty much kills the multiclassing aspect.)

FTR 10/CLR 10 is *hardly* a good example of multiclassing ...

fwiw my main is a 28-pointer battle cleric, so assuming I took the TR twice, which is not unlikely, we're talking about a whopping *8* extra points.

I can see your points (including unquoted ones) ; but I think they are only valid for certain playing styles, where one doesn't really focus on any one toon more than on any other. In these cases, sure the extra 2 points may not be worth the mega-grind...

[ThatSwordGuy]

FTR 10/CLR 10 is *hardly* a good example of multiclassing ...

Allow me to clarify so's I don't sound like a total moron on the intranets.

You could TR for two reasons (in terms of power). First, to get really good at one job. Second, to get better at two jobs.

In the case of the singular specialization: It's not really worth the cost to TR if you're going to specialize at one thing. By that point the build is strong enough to make it to 20 and grind for epic tokens, so why improve on something that already works?

In the case of dual specialization, I was trying to point out that most builds are actually centered around one class with a couple levels from another class, like Sorcerer/Paladins or Cleric/Fighters. Most people use multiclassing to enhance a single-class build, rather than focus equally on both classes. Hence why I referred to a 10/10 build... because no amount of TR bonuses is going to make that sort of multiclassing a realistic option.

I could definately see someone enjoying the game from the beginning again if it were their only character, but otherwise I see it as the wrong sort of replay value.

I did have a very interesting thought, though. What if the TR bonuses did not apply to your character, but to everyone else in the party? So a past-life Rogue would give everyone sneak attack damage. I only bring it up because the purpose of D&D is to work together as a party, not become so powerful you don't need anyone else's help.

Maybe, because my past experiences with other versions of this game mechanic, I see a greater potential than what DDO is implementing. I don't want to come off as ungrateful or as persuing my own interests while forsaking other views. Merely having the option to improve one's character is always a good thing... however, I can't help but feel that the current execution does not appeal to a wide enough audience.

Maybe when I encounter TR I will feel differently. Until then, cheers, and thanks to those that make (and play) this awesome representation of D&D.

[Natashaelle]

Yes OK, just that Class X 10/Cleric 10 is an exceptionally poor combo, whichever class you use as X - because Cleric multiclassing absolutely requires a minimum of 11 levels at the endgame due to the existence of Heal and Blade Barrier -- although some levels of Cleric splash pretty much as you describe it are also good possibilities

Let's take a different class combination though, say Fighter and Rogue -- I cannot for the life of me see anything wrong with the idea of a Fighter 10/Rogue 10. That's what someone wants to play ? Go for it.

Anyway, the angle you are taking is a minimaxing angle -- quite clearly, multiplying the amount of XP needed to get your toon to 20th level by about 4 or 5 spectacularly fails to satisfy the "mini" part of the minimax concept

My own feeling is that there isn't one single overriding reason why TR might be good in some individual cases and for some individual people.

If you happen to be a skillful and accomplished power leveller there is absolutely no reason at all why you shouldn't use TR, because the associated XP/grind costs are fundamentally diminished compared to other players ; if you are the type of player who enjoys focusing on one toon AND enjoys the levelling game, again no reason at all why you shouldn't use TR ; if you have a really fun toon concept that somehow doesn't quite work with only 32 points, TR may let you ungimp that concept ; if you have an old toon that you still like but hardly play any more due to changes in game, but haven't deleted/rerolled because of gear/sentimentality/why-delete-one-of-my-Shroud-farmers?/whatever TR is clearly a good way to inject some new life back into the toon ; and various other not-directly-powergaming reasons.

FWIW I agree that it is difficult to create a toon actually fulfilling more than one class role in this game, well without gimping the toon in some fairly drastic ways ; but a) it is not impossible b) this is only true at certain levels and level caps c) it can be LOTS of fun trying anyway, even in the face of most probable failure

The reason I love playing Battle Cleric is *precisely* because it is so fun and challenging to balance the fighter capabilities with the healing -- F10/C10 at level cap 20 is a very poor combination simply because you will be *unable* to have balanced healing. F7/C7 though is perfectly good ; so is F12/C12 ...

My main is C12/F6/Rang2 -- she will *greatly* benefit from the TR because she is a 28-pointer, and because of certain compromises that were necessary @ toon creation that will no longer be required in the TR version. This would remain true even IF she were a 32-pointer btw or even 34-pointer, which is why I am virtually certain to take the TRx2... and btw she works well enough as a 28-pointer, simply as a 36-pointer she will actually become the toon that I was envisioning in the first place.

From personal experience therefore, whilst I would agree with the gist of what you are saying in most cases, there are certainly some multiclassed toons that will directly and greatly benefit from the TR, and some where 2 or 4 extra points could make a significantly meaningful difference...

2 extra points are less likely to be useful for toons that have already been minimaxed, and could only be allocated to stats that are not really required in the character concept. Nor will 2 extra points fix any fundamentally broken MC concepts, like F10/C10, as you say - although the TR could be used to fix those kinds of gimps once and for all by turning them into 1st level toons with a brand new future Class/Level split waiting for them ingame