pros and cons od dex monks VS str monks

[kartos]

will im planing a a monk and the truth is i dunno how to build it a str base 1 or a dex based monk i c lots of dex monks so i thought it would be my best choice but i still wanna get advise or 2 from the ppl in here so what r the pros and cons of DEX monk VS STR monk

p.s how is this build?:

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Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(20 Monk) 
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 19
Will: 17

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    14
Dexterity            16                    22
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               14                    18
Charisma              8                     8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    31
Bluff                -1                    -1
Concentration         6                    43
Diplomacy            -1                    -1
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                  2                     6
Hide                  3                     8
Intimidate           -1                    -1
Jump                  2                    16
Listen                2                     6
Move Silently         3                     8
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  2                     4
Swim                  2                     2
Tumble                7                    16
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Disciple of Breezes


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose I
Enhancement: Void Strike
Enhancement: Disciple of Pebbles
Enhancement: Disciple of Candles
Enhancement: Disciple of Puddles
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Monk Path) Philosophy - Path of Harmonious Balance
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fists of Light


Level 4 (Monk)
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use I


Level 5 (Monk)
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose II
Enhancement: Monk Concentration I
Enhancement: Monk Concentration II


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Deflect Arrows
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II


Level 7 (Monk)
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 8 (Monk)
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity II


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Eagle Claw Attack
Enhancement: Adept of Rock


Level 10 (Monk)
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose III


Level 11 (Monk)
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use II


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use III
Enhancement: Master of Thunder


Level 13 (Monk)
Enhancement: Unbalancing Strike
Enhancement: Adept of Rain


Level 14 (Monk)
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark Use IV


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortiose IV


Level 16 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom III


Level 17 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Balance I
Enhancement: Monk Concentration III


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms


Level 19 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Concentration IV


Level 20 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Monk Balance II

[Cedwin]

Dex Pros:
A dex monk with high wis = lots of AC.
Using weapon finesse with high dex = high to-hit.
High dex = high reflex saves.
Ulimate Wind Stance adds +4 to dex, so it's each to get to 30 dex and higher.

Dex Cons:
High dex usually means low Strength, which means you'll have to pick up power attack to compensate.
Easier to get uncentered from enfeeblement or being overburdened due to lack of strength.


Str Pros:
More damage. If you get your Str to around 30, plus use power attack, and GTWF, you'll be doing a lot of damage.
If you go with a Str monk, you'll probably want to use Ultimate Sun Stance, which is +4 to strength.
The extra damage from the added strength and power attack should compensate for the speed you lose from the wind stance.

Str Cons:
Lower AC from less dex.
Lower reflex saves.


Feel free to add to the list, that's all I could think of at the moment.

[rimble]

There's not a big difference. Take, for example, what I would consider two fairly common Halfling builds:

1) Dex/Wis Based
Str 12
Dex 18 + 5 Levels (or could be in Wis too)
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

2) Str Based
Str 14 + 5 Levels
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

We'll assume they both use Wind stance, since it's uber. They both have access to the same gear. So the only real difference is starting stats and level ups.

The Dex based has 7 more Dex than the Str based.

The Str based has 7 more Str than the Dex based.

So that's a fluctation of 3 or 4 AC, or 3 or 4 Damage. It's fairly insignificant.

What matters, then, is how you equip your character.

With basic gear (AC 8 Bracers, Icy Raiment) my Strength based DPS-focused Halfling will have a 53 AC. If I wanted, I could take that same build and crank up AC, but I don't want to:

+4 Insight AC Kama
+3 Chattering Ring
+1 Dodge Feat (instead of Healing Dragonmark)
+1 TWD (instead of Healing Dragonmark)
+1 Mod 9 ring with Exc Dex/Wis

Same build, but suddenly he's at 63 AC...but less damage using Kamas, less damage from not having Holy/Shocking Blast on dual Mod 9 rings, -2 Damage from not wearing Frenzied Berserker Mod 9 set...

So, in summary, it comes down to Feats and Gear, the Str/Dex thing seems to have the least impact. Max Dex Weapon Finesse Monks are untouchable, but do little damage. Max Str Power Attack Monks are pretty touchable, but do more damage. Perhaps the best Monk is one that can transition smoothely between the two roles?

[Cedwin]

So, in summary, it comes down to Feats and Gear, the Str/Dex thing seems to have the least impact. Max Dex Weapon Finesse Monks are untouchable, but do little damage. Max Str Power Attack Monks are pretty touchable, but do more damage. Perhaps the best Monk is one that can transition smoothely between the two roles?

That's what I'm working on with my current build, I plan to have around 28ish for both dex and str and see how it works out.

[kartos]

ty for both of u i gusse ill continue with my dex based monk then....

my build is as u have seen in the build(if u checked it) is
14
16
14
8
14
8

im planing to go 4 lvls of DEX and 1 lvl of wis which means in end game with no equips and tomes using grandmaster wind stance ill have:
14
22(+2 from halfling enchantments)
10(-4 cuz of the wind stance)
8
18(+3 from wis of monk)
8

while equiped i gusse ill be able to reach about 30ish dex and 20ish STR would i be able to kill mobs in a good speed?(lets say 5-8 sec a mob..)

[Aerendil]

This thread should be WIS monks vs. STR monks. Not Dex vs. Str.

99.99999% of Monks have 18 base Dex at endgame in order to get grandmaster Wind stance. It's that good.
But more than 18 Dex isn't really necessary at all. Putting your level-ups into it is a waste.

Go Wis, or Str. Or both.


If you're not intending to put any points into Str, do NOT start with less than 13 Str.

[Cedwin]

99.99999% of Monks have 18 base Dex at endgame in order to get grandmaster Wind stance. It's that good.
But more than 18 Dex isn't really necessary at all. Putting your level-ups into it is a waste.

I've seen quite a few builds that are all dex and wisdom, with low strength.

32 dex and 28 wisdom would give you +20 to your armor class, but you wouldn't do much damage with a low strength. I think a lot of people think they should go all dex because ultimate wind stance gives +4, so if they start out with an 18 dex, and put all 5 stat points into dex, they'll end up at 23, plus halfing dex, a +2 tome, and a +6 item, they can hit 34+ dex easy by level 20. But all of that AC doesn't do much good other than keep you alive a little bit longer while you pummel a mob for 10 dmg per attack.

By the way, an easy way to figure out your stat modifier: (n - 10) / 2

e.g. (28 Dex - 10) / 2 = +9 stat modifier.

[Aerendil]

I've seen quite a few builds that are all dex and wisdom, with low strength.

Yep. And they suck.

I'll give you a quick example. Tear of Dhakaan 2 nights ago. 3 monks in the party, levels 10, 10, and 9 (I was the 9). One was a Halfling "Dex" monk; the other was a Dwarf "Dex" Monk.
I have a Human "well-rounded" Monk (i.e. splitting my level ups between Str and Wis, with starting stats of 14 in both and with a +1 tome already into those stats).

And I was the only one that could punch through the clay golem's DR and do any significant damage. And it only has a DR of 10. How sad is that?

My point? Don't neglect Str. And FAR too many "Dex" builds do. They ignore it completely.
At which point they get thrown up against a mob that they can't land Unbalancing Strike on or which is immune to crits; or they come across a mob with high DR, and they're fubar.

And that's why Monk dps has such a bad rap. We don't have the uber damage of, say, a Rogue to be able to afford a Finesse build. Or the free damage of a Fighter or Ranger via specialization/favored enemies.
We need every bit of damage to punch through DR.

Granted, this will change come next update when metalline handwraps start dropping (in theory). But even then, I'd still argue that Str is important.

Base Dex of 18 +6 (item) +4 (gm wind stance) +2 (tome) = 30 Dex, right there, which is plenty of AC and reflex save boosts. Any more is overkill.
If you want AC, put points into WIS. At least your finishers, QP, and SF get increases too.
If you want to-hit, put points into STR. Forget finesse. At least you boost your dps at the same time.

Just my 2cp.

[kartos]

Yep. And they suck.

I'll give you a quick example. Tear of Dhakaan 2 nights ago. 3 monks in the party, levels 10, 10, and 9 (I was the 9). One was a Halfling "Dex" monk; the other was a Dwarf "Dex" Monk.
I have a Human "well-rounded" Monk (i.e. splitting my level ups between Str and Wis, with starting stats of 14 in both and with a +1 tome already into those stats).

And I was the only one that could punch through the clay golem's DR and do any significant damage. And it only has a DR of 10. How sad is that?

My point? Don't neglect Str. And FAR too many "Dex" builds do. They ignore it completely.
At which point they get thrown up against a mob that they can't land Unbalancing Strike on or which is immune to crits; or they come across a mob with high DR, and they're fubar.

And that's why Monk dps has such a bad rap. We don't have the uber damage of, say, a Rogue to be able to afford a Finesse build. Or the free damage of a Fighter or Ranger via specialization/favored enemies.
We need every bit of damage to punch through DR.

Granted, this will change come next update when metalline handwraps start dropping (in theory). But even then, I'd still argue that Str is important.

Base Dex of 18 +6 (item) +4 (gm wind stance) +2 (tome) = 30 Dex, right there, which is plenty of AC and reflex save boosts. Any more is overkill.
If you want AC, put points into WIS. At least your finishers, QP, and SF get increases too.
If you want to-hit, put points into STR. Forget finesse. At least you boost your dps at the same time.

Just my 2cp.

k i started with 14 STR+6 item+2 tome thats 22 STR would that be enough to build a good dex build(base 16 DEX+4 GMWS+2 tome+4 lvl ups+6 item+enchatments we end up at 34 using wep finesse)

my wis would be at 20's also(14 base+1lvl up+3enchantments+2 tome+6 item thats 26) will it be good or should i put 4 lvl ups 2 STR(still using weapon finesse cuz ill have 30DEXVS26STR unless ill be using GMFS wihch will make my wis 22 and my str 30.... and no 1 recommend it..) what ac ill have with those stats?(or can u give me the AC formula?)

[Cedwin]

Yep. And they suck.

If you want to-hit, put points into STR. Forget finesse. At least you boost your dps at the same time.

Just my 2cp.

Oh I agree completely. I'm working on a new human build right now, he's up to level 10 with the following base stats:

16 Str
17 Dex
14 Con
10 Int
14 Wis
8 Cha

With gear and enhancements he looks like this:
20 Str (+4 str belt)
24 Dex (air stance)(+4 dex gloves)(+1 human dex enhancement)
16 Con (air stance)(+4 con necklace)
10 Int
20 Wis(+4 wis helm)(+2 monk wisdom enhancement)
8 Cha

I'm contemplating putting the stat points from 12/16/20 into Str, since I get wis points from human wisdom and monk wisdom enhancements, but it would be nice to get my wisdom up for the DC.

[Aerendil]

k i started with 14 STR+6 item+2 tome thats 22 STR would that be enough to build a good dex build(base 16 DEX+4 GMWS+2 tome+4 lvl ups+6 item+enchatments we end up at 34 using wep finesse)

my wis would be at 20's also(14 base+1lvl up+3enchantments+2 tome+6 item thats 26) will it be good or should i put 4 lvl ups 2 STR(still using weapon finesse cuz ill have 30DEXVS26STR unless ill be using GMFS wihch will make my wis 22 and my str 30.... and no 1 recommend it..) what ac ill have with those stats?(or can u give me the AC formula?)

You should be ok with that. 14-16 is generally what I argue as being ideal for starting Str.
8-12 is too low and you lose out on Power Attack.
Over 16 is too high and takes up way too many build points.

As for Wis, I think the general goal is the 28-32 marker for endgame for a reasonably good DC on your finishers, QP, Stunning Fist, etc., but you can boost yours further with 2 level up points if you were so inclined, as well as +2 exceptional wisdom from an endgame item. So you should be ok.

As for AC, I think your average Monk is going to be at 50+ AC endgame no matter what they do, unless you ignore Dex and Wis completely.
For example = 10 base + 20 (from 30 dex and wis, or an average of about the same total) +5 (centered) +8 (bracers) +5 (protection/deflection item) = 48 AC.
Throw in some other goodies such as a chattering ring or seal of the earth (+3 AC), shroud insight gear (+4 AC), icy raiments (a further +4 dodge), and you're now at 59 AC. 60 if halfling.

Throw in clickies (shield = +4 AC), barkskin potions (+3), haste potions (+1), defensive stance (+2, +5 if combat expertise), etc. and you're now mostly untouchable at 70+.

Raid buffs add a further +2 (full barkskin) +5 (paladin aura) +4 (bard AC song) putting you at 80+ generally.

And the worst part is, I'm sure I'm missing some AC there somewhere. At work and can't be arsed to double check, but yeah, it's probably going to be even higher.

*edit* - found 2 more AC. 1 from Dodge feat, and 1 from alchemical formula (crafting). I'm sure there's still more

[kartos]

You should be ok with that. 14-16 is generally what I argue as being ideal for starting Str.
8-12 is too low and you lose out on Power Attack.
Over 16 is too high and takes up way too many build points.

As for Wis, I think the general goal is the 28-32 marker for endgame for a reasonably good DC on your finishers, QP, Stunning Fist, etc., but you can boost yours further with 2 level up points if you were so inclined, as well as +2 exceptional wisdom from an endgame item. So you should be ok.

As for AC, I think your average Monk is going to be at 50+ AC endgame no matter what they do, unless you ignore Dex and Wis completely.
For example = 10 base + 20 (from 30 dex and wis, or an average of about the same total) +5 (centered) +8 (bracers) +5 (protection/deflection item) = 48 AC.
Throw in some other goodies such as a chattering ring or seal of the earth (+3 AC), shroud insight gear (+4 AC), icy raiments (a further +4 dodge), and you're now at 59 AC. 60 if halfling.

Throw in clickies (shield = +4 AC), barkskin potions (+3), haste potions (+1), defensive stance (+2, +5 if combat expertise), etc. and you're now mostly untouchable at 70+.

Raid buffs add a further +2 (full barkskin) +5 (paladin aura) +4 (bard AC song) putting you at 80+ generally.

And the worst part is, I'm sure I'm missing some AC there somewhere. At work and can't be arsed to double check, but yeah, it's probably going to be even higher.

*edit* - found 2 more AC. 1 from Dodge feat, and 1 from alchemical formula (crafting). I'm sure there's still more

thank you so much! (about the 12 STR is there any man crazy enough to do it?) but u didn'y answer me where to put stat points?anyway rly rly thanks u helped me so much!

[dontcare123]

12 str is what my halfling started with... it also is what most every other halfling I have spoken to started with.

Pretty much everyone has already acknowledged that monk dps vs red names+ is subpar to that of their fighter/paladin/etc brothers. I think this is a moot point at the moment until Turbine gives other options.

Lets assume you gimp another stat (it doesnt matter which) and you jack up str and pump all 5 points into it.

You gain maybe 5 total damage over the 12 str monk per hit, have at LEAST 2 less dc/ac since you didnt pump wisdom, and realistically assuming my monk has 0 +s to damage (not the case, but lets argue it) from str, 50% of my attacks will break DR 10/- anyway because we get D20 at level 20 for fists. with that plus 5, you break it on 75%. Pretty good numbers until you consider that Bane weapons, holy, etc can still give you the equipment to kill just about any monster out there. Only in extremely underprepared/unprepared times will you be inflicting 0 damage. I would take more AC/Higher DCs that are used in 95% of the game, than worry about that 5% where I would kill slower. 99 times out of 100, in that situation you will be in a group or raid anyway, and thats what teams are for. You speed up the run to the boss by Stunning fist/Quivering palm as often as possible and they do their work on the boss.

There was another post I read which pointed out the inherant weakness of pumping str, and to summarize, he concluded:

Str gives damage only, and not a significant amount.

Dex gives AC, reflex saves, Higher to hit (if finess)

Wisdom (big winner here) gives the valueable Will save, higher AC, and bigger DCs to monk attacks.

If you feel that the gain of an extremely marginal damage boost is worth losing ac and lowering dcs, then by all means. I wont argue about power attack. Its a great feat that only lowers attack bonus (which is really overinflated in this game compared to pnp) in exchange for 5 damage, something almost every monk can trade.

[Cedwin]

12 str is what my halfling started with... it also is what most every other halfling I have spoken to started with.
That tends to happen when they all follow halfling dex monk build guides

Pretty much everyone has already acknowledged that monk dps vs red names+ is subpar to that of their fighter/paladin/etc brothers. I think this is a moot point at the moment until Turbine gives other options.
The patch notes for the beta server mention new named handwraps, which are most likely the transmuting handwraps that were said to be missing from this past update.

<snip>

If you feel that the gain of an extremely marginal damage boost is worth losing ac and lowering dcs, then by all means. I wont argue about power attack. Its a great feat that only lowers attack bonus (which is really overinflated in this game compared to pnp) in exchange for 5 damage, something almost every monk can trade.

You are assuming that strength build monks go all strength and put nothing in wis or dex, which would be a min/max build. Leaving your strength at 12 is basically min/max'ing a monk, instead of keeping it somewhat balanced.

comments in red

[rimble]

There was another post I read which pointed out the inherant weakness of pumping str, and to summarize, he concluded:

Str gives damage only, and not a significant amount.

Dex gives AC, reflex saves, Higher to hit (if finess)

Wisdom (big winner here) gives the valueable Will save, higher AC, and bigger DCs to monk attacks.

Here's another way to look at it:

Damage always matters. It's pretty much the point of the game, do damage. Trash monsters, boss monsters, monsters with various immunities, damage always matters.

AC only matters if you're being attacked. Right now (maybe new handwraps will change things up) Monks don't pull aggro, and can't take aggro via any sort of +Hate abilities or Intimidate. Most bosses will ignore your AC, though maybe not on Normal if you put ALOT of effort into it (Chattering, Insight AC Kama, and so on). Damage drops dramatically if you focus heavily on AC.

Reflex only matters when you're making Reflex saves (and really, this ends up high enough for pretty much any Monk anyways).

Wisdom only matters making (somewhat rare) Will saves. Being Lawful Outsider makes you immune to much of it. You have Spell Resistance to help too. High DCs are fun and useful, but don't work on many immune mobs, and are ignored by most bosses. Maybe you can land some things on Normal, doubtful on Hard and above.

Just another perspective. You can maximize the thing that ALWAYS works, or muddle around with various situational things. I'm not saying what you should do or what is better (there are certainly times I wish I had more AC), but I'm going the damage route.