The Tinkerer -- newb-friendly Wizard/Rogue

[Thanimal]

This is FAR from a new idea, but I've noticed recently quite a bit of interest from the next generation of DDO players in a utility Wizard. Here's a cut at doing that. I'm assuming 28 point build, but I note 32-point options. I mention Tomes and some decent equipment as reference points for experienced players, but NONE are required.

EDIT 2009/10/11: Incorporated some feedback. (Thanks all!)

28-point Warforged Wizard 18/Rogue 2
INT: 18 [16 points] + 5 level bumps + 3 Wizard enh + 2 Tome + 6 item = 34
WIS: 12 [6 points] + 2 Tome + 6 item = 20
CON: 16 [6 points] + 2 WF enh + 2 Tome + 6 item = 26
DEX: 8
STR: 8 + 6 item = 14 (so you can carry some stuff)
CHA: 6

32-point build starts CON at 18.

Rogue is for sure taken at 1. There's some flexibility in when to take Rogue 2. I'm an Evasion addict, so I don't think I could wait any later than 7 (right after getting Haste). Other options are definitely possible.

Skills: Please jump to here to see details on skills. THANK YOU mediocresurgeon!

Feats:
Wizard bonus feats in order: Extend, Empower, Heighten, Quicken
1) Toughness
3) Maximize
6) Mental Toughness
9) Insightful Reflexes
12) Improved Mental Toughness
15) Spell Penetration
18) Greater Spell Penetration

Enhancements (in no particular order)
6 Wizard Energy of the Scholar III
10 Wizard Force Manipulation IV
10 Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV
6 Wizard Improved Maximizing II
12 Wizard INT III
1 Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
6 Wizard Improved Spell Penetration II
4 Wizard Improved Heightening I
6 Wizard Improved Quicken II
1 Rogue Skill Boost I
1 Rogue Spot I
1 Rogue Search I
1 Rogue Disable I
1 WF Hardiness I
1 WF Construct Thinking
2 WF Inscribed Armor I (save up two points before hitting 2 and take this immediately; ASF is annoying!)
3 Racial Toughness II
6 WF CON II
1 Wizard Lineage of Elements I
1 Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
---
80

I didn't go for the Improved Empower line because I don't view Empower as "usually on." But it's great for "all out damage blitz" against a handful of bosses in the game where the arcane is expected to do most of the DPSing.

EDIT 2009/10/12: There is some analysis and comment here that I personally found very compelling and that influenced my tiny dabble into the crit lines.

In the end, enhancements are pretty tight. You'll have to decide what to emphasize.

AC: Useless


Saves:
Wizard 18: 6/6/11
Rogue 2: 0/3/0
Resist item: 5/5/5
Stats: 8/12/5 (note INT modifier is used for Reflex save due to Insightful Reflexes)
luck: 2/2/2
GH: 4/4/4
enhancements: 1/0/1
---
26/32/28

Decent. 32 makes Evasion at least "useful." I wouldn't try to run through Elite traps, though!

Hit Points:
20 base
72 Wizard
12 Rogue
23 Toughness
20 Toughness Enhancements
20 Improved False Life
160 CON
---
327

With better equipment or farming
20 Minos Hat
45 Shroud item
10 Draconic favor
+10 GFL over IFL
+20 32-point build CON increase
---
432

Not tooo squishy.

Final note: Don't try to solo with this build, especially at low levels and especially if you're a new player. It's a support/utility build at least until it picks up Firewall at level 9. Theoretically, it might be a very solid solo build at very high levels, though.

[Failedlegend]

Is there any reason to take more than 2 lvls of rogue...just wondering because the rest of that class seems kinda useless (but evasion and skills from the two lvls is invaluable)

[valorik]

I really have to reccomend finding room for quicken, I'd drop skill focus spot, IMT OR improved spell pen for it if it were my build

[valorik]

Is there any reason to take more than 2 lvls of rogue...just wondering because the rest of that class seems kinda useless (but evasion and skills from the two lvls is invaluable)

not really as a wiz/rogue no, but rogue, even pure is a strong class,

[Thanimal]

I really have to reccomend finding room for quicken, I'd drop skill focus spot, IMT OR improved spell pen for it if it were my build

I'd have no problem taking Quicken in place of Empower, actually. Maximize is by far the more important and more efficient.

But in any case, I personally think of Quicken as kind of a late-game feat. So perhaps a respec to pick it up later would be great, but for a new player I think Focus: Spot is important early.

(Added notes to this effect in the OP.)

[Failedlegend]

But in any case, I personally think of Quicken as kind of a late-game feat. So perhaps a respec to pick it up later would be great, but for a new player I think Focus: Spot is important early.

wait I know you can respec enhancements but you can respec feats too?...how?

[Thanimal]

wait I know you can respec enhancements but you can respec feats too?...how?

There's a Mindflayer named Fred in House J. He charges gold and Dragonshards for feat respecs. You can even earn yourself a free respec of one feat by doing Lockania's quest in the Harbor. (It's a lore test, actually, not really a quest -- but all the information is there in the books in her room.)

[Thanimal]

Hm, I went with DEX as my "3rd stat" in the OP because I was worried that new players would have such horrifyingly bad AC that they'd never make it past the harbor.

But probably the long-term optimal build is to put those points into WIS and start at 12. The most likely obviates the need for SF: Spot, making it much easier to fit Quicken.

Eventually, DEX is really ONLY for Open Lock, which is pretty easy anyhow. (AC becomes useless and INT is used for Reflex save.)

Anybody have an opinion on this? Should we just expect newb Wizards to be squishy right out of the gate and aim for the best end-game build?

[mediocresurgeon]

Since you don't need dexterity for Reflex or AC, why did you put points into it? It seems like a waste to me.

[Thanimal]

Since you don't need dexterity for Reflex or AC, why did you put points into it? It seems like a waste to me.

For early game passable AC and a touch of help on OL.

But the more I think about it the thinner case really seems. Guess sometime tomorrow I'll update this build to never have any AC...

[mediocresurgeon]

Also, the critical enhancements are wonderful. Even with sub-par gear, anyone can expect 1 out of 5 spells to be a crit. While the OP is right in that it does not help very much for spells like Cone of Cold (which only deal damage once), spell crits work wonders for Wall of Fire and Acid Fog. I would suggest taking the Lineage of Elements and Lineage of Deadly Elements enhancements at the very least, just so you can get a decent Wall of Fire when you need it (you can just recast it until you get a crit).

[Thanimal]

Also, the critical enhancements are wonderful. Even with sub-par gear, anyone can expect 1 out of 5 spells to be a crit. While the OP is right in that it does not help very much for spells like Cone of Cold (which only deal damage once), spell crits work wonders for Wall of Fire and Acid Fog. I would suggest taking the Lineage of Elements and Lineage of Deadly Elements enhancements at the very least, just so you can get a decent Wall of Fire when you need it (you can just recast it until you get a crit).

I did not know that! Fascinating.

[Zorminster]

Also, the critical enhancements are wonderful. Even with sub-par gear, anyone can expect 1 out of 5 spells to be a crit. While the OP is right in that it does not help very much for spells like Cone of Cold (which only deal damage once), spell crits work wonders for Wall of Fire and Acid Fog. I would suggest taking the Lineage of Elements and Lineage of Deadly Elements enhancements at the very least, just so you can get a decent Wall of Fire when you need it (you can just recast it until you get a crit).

Erm, this seems a bit misleading... Isn't the "Crit or Not" roll made each time an enemy is hit? I don't think the whole firewall can either be a crit or not a crit. I think each 'attack' that it makes will get a chance at being a crit or not

NEVERMIND..... i just logged on and tested. You are correct- the "crit or not" is rolled when the spell is cast. If it's crit the whole wall does a ton more damage.

[mediocresurgeon]

About your skills:

-Early game for new players, we will assume Spot will be helpful.
-Late game, we will assume that you want UMD, Disable Device, Concentration, and Search maxed.
-At all levels you want a decent Balance skill.
-At all levels, you only want only ~4 ranks in Open Lock.

Level 1 (Rogue):
+4 ranks in Balance
+2 ranks in Concentration
+4 ranks in Disable Device
+4 ranks in Open Lock
+4 ranks in Search
+4 ranks in Spot
(This leaves you with 24 unused skill points to play around with.)

Level 2-3 (Wizard):
+2 ranks in Concentration
+1 rank in Disable Device
+1 rank in Search

Level 4-7 (Wizard):
+1 rank in Concentration
+1 rank in Disable Device
+1 rank in Search
+0.5 rank in Spot

Level 8-9 (Wizard)
+1 rank in Concentration
+1 rank in Disable Device
+1 rank in Search
+1 rank in Spot

Level 10 (Rogue):
+1 rank in Concentration
+1 rank in Disable Device
+1 rank in Search
+9 rank in Use Magic Device

Level 11-16 (Wizard):
+1 rank in Concentration
+1 rank in Disable Device
+1 rank in Search
+1 rank in Use Magic Device

Level 17-20 (Wizard)
+0.5 rank in Balance
+1 rank in Concentration
+1 rank in Disable Device
+1 rank in Search
+1 rank in Use Magic Device

This leaves you with:
Balance 6 ranks
Concentration 23 ranks
Disable Device 23 ranks
Open Lock 4 ranks
Search 23 ranks
Spot 7.5 ranks
Use Magic Device 23 ranks
Plus 6 other skills at 4 ranks each.

You could probably do better without the investment into Spot, but you have plenty of skill points to throw around. I included it in this skill point scheme, but once a trap is activated it is pretty clear where you need to search anyway (as a caster, your melee allies will probably run through any traps before they come into your Spot radius anyway). Since this skill point scheme takes Rogue at level 1, it is probably a good idea to take Insightful Reflexes for your first feat if you use this scheme.

[Thanimal]

surgeon: Thanks so much for the detailed skills breakdown! I gave you rep and linked to your post from the OP.

With all the great input, this build is getting tightened up a bit around the edges. I only created it because it seemed to be "missing" and quite a few people were interested. But I'm not a big expert on it, so I relied on the community to fix it up. I'm pretty happy with the build now, and even happier with all the options and opinions presented over the course of the thread.

Good work, team!

[foxx]

Is there any reason to take more than 2 lvls of rogue...just wondering because the rest of that class seems kinda useless (but evasion and skills from the two lvls is invaluable)

no 2 lvls get you evasion, and then take insightfull reflex.

personlly wisdom is a waste on TRICKSTER it;s only gonna help a little on spot and will save, would put that into con if the int is maxed.

[foxx]

Hm, I went with DEX as my "3rd stat" in the OP because I was worried that new players would have such horrifyingly bad AC that they'd never make it past the harbor.

But probably the long-term optimal build is to put those points into WIS and start at 12. The most likely obviates the need for SF: Spot, making it much easier to fit Quicken.

Eventually, DEX is really ONLY for Open Lock, which is pretty easy anyhow. (AC becomes useless and INT is used for Reflex save.)

Anybody have an opinion on this? Should we just expect newb Wizards to be squishy right out of the gate and aim for the best end-game build?

yes, and also dropping the wis and getting as mnay HP is MUST AT THE START AND THE END.
will save and spot are a second though for a trickster.

[Thanimal]

personlly wisdom is a waste on TRICKSTER it;s only gonna help a little on spot and will save, would put that into con if the int is maxed.

I see your point for sure, and this may be best for a more advanced player. But I feel a new player really needs to be able to Spot stuff.

Personally, I feel the Will save is a bit weak even with the 12 start, but I'm a little more prone to throwing a hissy fit when I fail a save than most players are...

Also, one thing I've found on my WF casters is that getting incapacited (lower case i) in any way is HORRIBLE, because as long as I can hit that Repair or Reconstruct button, I have a chance. If I can't move or cast, I'm basically already dead. Of course, the same is true of getting one-shotted, but I feel the build I've outlined is out of one-shot range if properly equipped (and not aggroing any Elite raid bosses).

[foxx]

I see your point for sure, and this may be best for a more advanced player. But I feel a new player really needs to be able to Spot stuff.

Personally, I feel the Will save is a bit weak even with the 12 start, but I'm a little more prone to throwing a hissy fit when I fail a save than most players are...

ya me too, especially at end game when i get my ass knocked held three or 4 times in a
row.

the thing about spot is, <and i agree with you about spotting at low lvls>
that after one time through you know where the traps are.

[Thanimal]

ya me too, especially at end game when i get my ass knocked held three or 4 times in a
row.

the thing about spot is, <and i agree with you about spotting at low lvls>
that after one time through you know where the traps are.

Aye, there's the rub. The good news is that relatively soon it will be possible to respec skills and stats, so when you hit end-game you *could* re-tune the build.