Calculate DC

[prospero977]

Hello All,
I'm trying to figure out how to calculate DC, as from what I've read this particular roll becomes super important later on in the game.

Here is what I assume:

Spell DC = 10 + relevant ability mod [here CHA]+ spell level [here influenced by heighten]+ Spell Focus feats [both stack] + item [only highest bonus counts, different items stack in no way].

So, I'm not sure how to figure the ability mod part.

I'm a level 7 with 22 CHA (+6 Mod). Does that mean:

10 + 22 + spell level + focus + item

Or:
10 + 6 + spell level + focus + item


Finally, then, are the enhancements that directly increase charisma the only ones that will have an impact on DC?

Thanks,
Pros

[Aspenor]

The second one. with 22 charisma your ability modifier is 6. As with all stat-dependent characteristics (except carrying weight) your ability scores only affect your class features/etc. when on even numbers, they utilize your modifier not the score itself.

[Junts]

Hello All,
I'm trying to figure out how to calculate DC, as from what I've read this particular roll becomes super important later on in the game.

Here is what I assume:

Spell DC = 10 + relevant ability mod [here CHA]+ spell level [here influenced by heighten]+ Spell Focus feats [both stack] + item [only highest bonus counts, different items stack in no way].

So, I'm not sure how to figure the ability mod part.

I'm a level 7 with 22 CHA (+6 Mod). Does that mean:

10 + 22 + spell level + focus + item

Or:
10 + 6 + spell level + focus + item


Finally, then, are the enhancements that directly increase charisma the only ones that will have an impact on DC?

Thanks,
Pros

10 + spell level + 6 + x focus + x item

and yes, only cha enhancements will impact directly


for perspective, a very high endgame dc looks like

10 + 15 cha (40 cha) + 9 level + 1 item + 1 focus = 36

[prospero977]

Very Helpful:

So, the spell focus feats are helpful, especially if you stack two, but charisma based enhancement is the way
to really amp it up.

Thanks,
Pros

[Junts]

Very Helpful:

So, the spell focus feats are helpful, especially if you stack two, but charisma based enhancement is the way
to really amp it up.

Thanks,
Pros

SF feats are great but limited becuase they are limited by school .. spending 2 feats to be good with just a few of your spells isn't always a good idea, it tends to work beter with wizards since they get their metamagics for free so have more feats to burn

[tinyelvis]

DC are pretty important end game.

36 is decent, I would shoot for at least that.
39 is pretty easily achievable for an end game sorc as a practical running DC.
40 is uber with every practical thing out there (41 for wiz if you dont mind dying occasionally).

You can bump these numbers by one if you buy a store pot. However, the 10 minute duration and cost really make this only good for special occasions.

[Junts]

DC are pretty important end game.

36 is decent, I would shoot for at least that.
39 is pretty easily achievable for an end game sorc as a practical running DC.
40 is uber with every practical thing out there (41 for wiz if you dont mind dying occasionally).

You can bump these numbers by one if you buy a store pot. However, the 10 minute duration and cost really make this only good for special occasions.

Assuming spell focus for 2 and an item for +1, tiny, you're assuming a 44 charisma as 'pretty achievable', when, in fact, that is the maximum available with all enhancements.. 40 is only available through the use of a greater spell focus item, which is only available on 2 handed weapons, and would require you to both use a +2 cha tod ring and a +1 exceptional cha dragontouched. There is no one who's running with a 39 on a regular basis, or with more htan a few spells (since 2 spell focus feats are required to achieve it).

44 charisma is only available to a +4 tome/litany having drow, which to my knowledge there aren't any yet, since I imagine someone would have posted it.


Also, all your numbers are only achievable with yugoloth pot usage, and they last 15 minutes, carry through instances and are prohibitive for wizards (-50% fortication on the int potion) and not at all for sorcerors (1k plat each, 15 minutes for -4 fort save), wiz and sorc endgame normal dcs are identical, the capstone has no bearing unless you're willing to suffer with sub-100% fort.
suggesting that use of 2 spell focus feats and a +4 tome is a normal, achievable goal is patently misleading.


edit: or you're suggesting the constant presence of a spellsinger, which is equally unrealistic.

[wolfy42]

I'm not an expert but I'll try and break it down.

You can get +2 to DC through spell focus feats....only really available to wizards though or maybe a human sorc.

Main bonus is from high charisma.....but heighten can also add up to 8 to your DC (depending on the base spell level).

You can also get a +1 to DC from an item (weapon usually) and you can dual wield...so this allows you to still have a superior potency item etc equiped as well (or get it through robes/helm etc).

Base bonus is 10 + cha bonus + spell focus bonus + item bonus + spell level (or max spell level with heighten).

Enemies roll to save against spells like players. The way they roll against the saves is 1d20 + appropriate save (reflex/fort/will).

Lets take niacs as a good early example cast by a drow sorc at level 8 without heighten.

Base cha is 20...+2 from lvl 4 and 8....+2 from sorc enhancements + 2 from tome and +4 from eagles splendor = 30 cha at lvl 8. Which is +10 to DC.

That gives you 10 + 10 + 1 (spell level) + 1 item bonus = 22

An enemy with a high save at lvl 8 would have a 6 base saving throw...and say +4 more from stats. That is 1d20+10 to save...or they roll 11-32 to save vs your spell. That means you only have a 55% chance to not have your spell saved against at that level. If you add hieghten at lvl 8 you increase the base spell level by 3.....increasing your chance to not have a spell saved to 70%.

If you maximize your bonuses I think you come out with this:

20 base cha + 5 from level + 4 from tome + 3 from enhancement + 4 from insight + 6 from item + 2 from capstone = 44 cha (42 is much easier requireing only a +2 tome)

10 base + 17 cha + 9 spell + 2 focus + 1 item = 39 max DC

39 max DC means enemies need a 20 saving through or higher to save on less then a 20 which is quite decent.

[prospero977]

Well put everyone.
I had to rack my brain on the DC concept for a couple of hours, but I think I have it now.
I really appreciate the input/debate here.

Very helpful.
Pros
(I don't have tome yet. I suppose I'll check the AH)

[ddoer]

suggesting that use of 2 spell focus feats and a +4 tome is a normal, achievable goal is patently misleading.

agree. he is talking about +4 tome and LOTD together. +4 tome is very unrealistic unless it will drop in the 20th ToD run. LOTD is doable but most people (include me and most, if not all, ppl who replied to my end-game gear thread with a full gear set) do not have. Actually, one could say LOTD is quite unrealistic too. (but somebody in my guild got 2+, so.. um.. ) double spell focus on enchantment/necromancy kinda a special build, not every sorc does in this way.

for me, i don't really want to utilize the maximize DC. say for charm monster, i would cast it in L8 (i.e. non-heighten) to get a better spell penetration.

[Junts]

agree. he is talking about +4 tome and LOTD together. +4 tome is very unrealistic unless it will drop in the 20th ToD run. LOTD is doable but most people (include me and most, if not all, ppl who replied to my end-game gear thread with a full gear set) do not have. Actually, one could say LOTD is quite unrealistic too. (but somebody in my guild got 2+, so.. um.. ) double spell focus on enchantment/necromancy kinda a special build, not every sorc does in this way.

for me, i don't really want to utilize the maximize DC. say for charm monster, i would cast it in L8 (i.e. non-heighten) to get a better spell penetration.

I have 3 across my chars on the lotd, so I do think its pretty attainable. However, +4 tome + lotd on a drow is what you need for a standing 42 stat/44 with pot, and his math suggests a 44 casting stat (hes got 17 worth of cha mod in there), which is directly contradictory to his statement that the yugoloth pot is not included, to say nothing of needing the 44 casting stat, +2 greater spell focus (available only on dreamspitter and staff of the petitioner), a very unique gearset (to use those 2 handers without loss of any charisma), and 2 spell focus feats .. which are rarely, if ever, carried by sorcerors due to feat limitations (most people woudl take spell penetrations and metamagics).

The post is simply misleading.

[tinyelvis]

Assuming spell focus for 2 and an item for +1, tiny, you're assuming a 44 charisma as 'pretty achievable', when, in fact, that is the maximum available with all enhancements.. 40 is only available through the use of a greater spell focus item, which is only available on 2 handed weapons, and would require you to both use a +2 cha tod ring and a +1 exceptional cha dragontouched. There is no one who's running with a 39 on a regular basis, or with more htan a few spells (since 2 spell focus feats are required to achieve it).

44 charisma is only available to a +4 tome/litany having drow, which to my knowledge there aren't any yet, since I imagine someone would have posted it.


Also, all your numbers are only achievable with yugoloth pot usage, and they last 15 minutes, carry through instances and are prohibitive for wizards (-50% fortication on the int potion) and not at all for sorcerors (1k plat each, 15 minutes for -4 fort save), wiz and sorc endgame normal dcs are identical, the capstone has no bearing unless you're willing to suffer with sub-100% fort.
suggesting that use of 2 spell focus feats and a +4 tome is a normal, achievable goal is patently misleading.


edit: or you're suggesting the constant presence of a spellsinger, which is equally unrealistic.

All bards should be spell slingers now. Not even considering the DC bonus, The bonus in spell points alone throught the course of a quest for casters and healers given by spell song helps the party more. Its almost like an additional party member. Melees at this point don't need any buffs to fight the end game content. But no, i had not even added that in.

Ok, are you telling me an end game rouge/ranger does not carry two mineral two or equivalent weapons. Hitting 39 DC is much easier than that. My toon runs at a 38 DC almost 100% and we have only been playing for a couple weeks. Had I nabbed a +4 tome, or a ring with an exceptional charisma bonus ( i have 2 other rings but none with exceptional charisma) I would be at a 39. Its not that tough. I certainly expect it within the next few weeks. This is not in any way missleading. I would think a lot if not most people would be heading in this direction.

Two approaches:
Method I:
Draconic armor with exceptional +1, You can build this in a weekend, or less of play. Certainly it can be built while you wait for you reaver and tower raid timers.
Use a Dreamspitter, not a difficult item to get from reaver, most casters currently have one.
Ring with exceptional +2 bonus
voila....39 DC.

Method II:
+4 tome, I assume will be typiclly achieve at least by 20th run.
Litany, not very tough to pull once the raid is runnable again.

This is easily achievable. The only real grind is the ring. Which is no harder to obtain than say a few large devil scales used to be. As soon as I get one, I will be running with 39 charisma next day. I dare say it's easier to hit this mark for new casters than it was to hit 38 charisma in the past (when it required a +3 tome and tier 3 item). Heck you can farm ingredients in the battlefield quests and chests.

38 will be the new norm with 39 reserved for those with enchantment focuses. Ultimately, 40 will be hit. 36, sure thats ok, better than a kick in the nutts. I would not call it ultr high though. I would call it bare minimum.

[Junts]

All bards should be spell slingers now. Not even considering the DC bonus, The bonus in spell points alone throught the course of a quest for casters and healers given by spell song helps the party more. Its almost like an additional party member. Melees at this point don't need any buffs to fight the end game content.

Ok, are you telling me an end game rouge/ranger does not carry two mineral two or equivalent weapons. Hitting 39 DC is much easier than that. My toon runs at a 38 DC almost 100% and we have only been playing for a couple weeks. Had I nabbed a +4 tome, or a ring with an exceptional charisma bonus ( i have 2 other rings but none with exceptional charisma) I would be at a 39. Its not that tough. I certainly expect it within the next few weeks. This is not in any way missleading. I would think a lot if not most people would be heading in this direction.

Two approaches:
Method I:
Draconic armor with exceptional +1, You can build this in a weekend, or less of play. Certainly it can be built while you wait for you reaver and tower raid timers.
Use a Dreamspitter, not a difficult item to get from reaver, most casters currently have one.
Ring with exceptional +2 bonus
voila....39 DC.

Method II:
+4 tome, I assume will be typiclly achieve at least by 20th run.
Litany, not very tough to pull once the raid is runnable again.

This is easily achievable. The only real grind is the ring. Which is no harder to obtain than say a few large devil scales used to be. As soon as I get one, I will be running with 39 charisma next day. I dare say it's easier to hit this mark for new casters than it was to hit 38 charisma in the past (when it required a +3 tome and tier 3 item). Heck you can farm ingredients in the battlefield quests and chests.

38 will be the new norm with 39 reserved for those with enchantment focuses. Ultimately, 40 will be hit. 36, sure thats ok, better than a kick in the nutts. I would not call it ultr high though. I would call it bare minimum.

You didn't already use a shroud/dt item with +1 charisma? Your math is off, I'm sorry

for a drow:

20 base
5 levels
3 enhancements
6 item
3 exceptional
1 litany of the dead
3 tome
--
41

+4 tome is required to reach the 42 charisma mark .. the +1 exceptional on tod rings does not stack with +1 exceptional via shroud weapons or dragontouched tempest tier.

Only a +4 tome using drow with litany can achieve a 42 cha (44 int for a wizard). A sorceror will only achieve a 44 casting stat with that arrangement and a yugoloth potion. You have invented a fictional charisma point that doesn't exist on DDO. If this point existed, drow would in fact be even worse sorcerors than they are already, since the max endgame charisma for the two races would be 43 and 42, so you wouldn't even gain a bracket with perfect equipment.

Back to the math:

10 base + 9 spell levels + x items + y feats + z charisma modifier

item: You can get +2 to necromancy and enchantment only via staff of the petitioner or dreamspitter. Otherwise, this value is +1

feats: this value is 0, 1 or 2, depending how many feats you'll burn

charisma modifier: this value is never higher than 17 for a sorceror .. ever (thats 44 cha), more realistically it is 42 or 40 depending on the presence of litany/+3 tomes on the build (human needs both for 40, drow needs 1 of the two).

Even -assuming the 44 charisma-, we have

10 base
9 spell
17 charisma
=36 before feats/items, require all of the above for 40. 41 is attainable at this point with a bardsong. 42 for a wizard willing to suffer critical hits (pointless)

You specifically omitted the yugoloth potion, so we're back to 35

So you're either using dreamspitter/petitioner to cast necro/enchant spells (you simply cant get greater spell focus items for any other school, they dont exist) with 1 feat ineach (that would get you to 38 .. if you had the tome .. since you dont, you need both feats to hit 38 .. or the song), or you're flat out lying

I'm gonna go with flat out lying, though I suppose since you carry neither extend or toughness its possible you have double focus in one school (im guessing enchantment, with your hardon for dancing sphere), as I'm equally guessing you don't have a new staff of the petitioner with the +2 necromancy focus on it anyway.

The idea that all bards should be spellsingers to help you out is laughable; dps is even more important than it was before, since we use it everywhere instead of just raid bosses, and nothing gets quests done faster than a warchanter. The sp saving buff is great for clerics healing a raid, but there are precious few situations that the added raid dps of the +2 song isn't superior for saving mana by ending thefight faster

In fact, the only reason a spellsinger might be better is because a large percentage of warchanter builds are splashed .. a 20 bard warchanter is by far the best bard available, especially if its dps or healing specced. this hasn't changed even a little bit, and the assertion that all bards should be spellsingers (or that you can count on having one in your pocket) is ludicrous, to say nothingof highly misleading to a new player, who will struggle even to attain a 35 dc in a reasonable timeframe.

[Drekisen]

U guys really like to overwork urselves don't u One or two energy drains and VIOLA.......36-40 DC

[tinyelvis]

You didn't already use a shroud/dt item with +1 charisma? Your math is off, I'm sorry

for a drow:

20 base
5 levels
3 enhancements
6 item
3 exceptional
1 litany of the dead
3 tome
--
41

+4 tome is required to reach the 42 charisma mark .. the +1 exceptional on tod rings does not stack with +1 exceptional via shroud weapons or dragontouched tempest tier.

Only a +4 tome using drow with litany can achieve a 42 cha (44 int for a wizard). A sorceror will only achieve a 44 casting stat with that arrangement and a yugoloth potion. You have invented a fictional charisma point that doesn't exist on DDO. If this point existed, drow would in fact be even worse sorcerors than they are already, since the max endgame charisma for the two races would be 43 and 42, so you wouldn't even gain a bracket with perfect equipment.

Back to the math:

10 base + 9 spell levels + x items + y feats + z charisma modifier

item: You can get +2 to necromancy and enchantment only via staff of the petitioner or dreamspitter. Otherwise, this value is +1

feats: this value is 0, 1 or 2, depending how many feats you'll burn

charisma modifier: this value is never higher than 17 for a sorceror .. ever (thats 44 cha), more realistically it is 42 or 40 depending on the presence of litany/+3 tomes on the build (human needs both for 40, drow needs 1 of the two).

Even -assuming the 44 charisma-, we have

10 base
9 spell
17 charisma
=36 before feats/items, require all of the above for 40. 41 is attainable at this point with a bardsong. 42 for a wizard willing to suffer critical hits (pointless)

You specifically omitted the yugoloth potion, so we're back to 35

So you're either using dreamspitter/petitioner to cast necro/enchant spells (you simply cant get greater spell focus items for any other school, they dont exist) with 1 feat ineach (that would get you to 38 .. if you had the tome .. since you dont, you need both feats to hit 38 .. or the song), or you're flat out lying

I'm gonna go with flat out lying, though I suppose since you carry neither extend or toughness its possible you have double focus in one school (im guessing enchantment, with your hardon for dancing sphere), as I'm equally guessing you don't have a new staff of the petitioner with the +2 necromancy focus on it anyway.

The idea that all bards should be spellsingers to help you out is laughable; dps is even more important than it was before, since we use it everywhere instead of just raid bosses, and nothing gets quests done faster than a warchanter. The sp saving buff is great for clerics healing a raid, but there are precious few situations that the added raid dps of the +2 song isn't superior for saving mana by ending thefight faster

In fact, the only reason a spellsinger might be better is because a large percentage of warchanter builds are splashed .. a 20 bard warchanter is by far the best bard available, especially if its dps or healing specced. this hasn't changed even a little bit, and the assertion that all bards should be spellsingers (or that you can count on having one in your pocket) is ludicrous, to say nothingof highly misleading to a new player, who will struggle even to attain a 35 dc in a reasonable timeframe.

First off, don't put words in my mouth. Second, if your happy with your 36 cool. I wrote what I wrote. Its hardly misleading. I should have what I need for DC39 soon. It seems no tougher than farming for a tier III shroud item, in fact probably easier (especially when others start to help you. Hell, you will probably be able to swap boot ingredients for enough ingredients to build your ring easy). This seems to me like the definition of,

39 is pretty easily achievable for an end game sorc as a practical running DC.

You dont want a 39 DC or your play style prohibits it or you cant imagine how or why someone would do it, fine. Doesn't change the above comment I made.

[Junts]

First off, don't put words in my mouth. Second, if your happy with your 36 cool. I wrote what I wrote. Its hardly misleading. I should have what I need for DC39 soon. It seems no tougher than farming for a tier III shroud item, in fact probably easier (especially when others start to help you. Hell, you will probably be able to swap boot ingredients for enough ingredients to build your ring easy). This seems to me like the definition of,



You dont want a 39 DC or your play style prohibits it or you cant imagine how or why someone would do it, fine. Doesn't change the above comment I made.

That's not what I said; what I said is that the numbers you give are highly unrealistic and are in fact 1 point higher than is actually possible to achieve in ddo without a dedicated bard-***** and use of yugoloth potions.

This is not a playstyle issue; this is a you lying through your teeth to a newbie issue.

You have invented a charisma bracket and consequently a dc out of whole cloth that does not exist in the game, Dungeons and Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited.

[tinyelvis]

Look mate, I think you need to take a break before you pop a blood vessel. When you get up in the morning go back and look at my original post. Don't add your words or perceptions to it. Just look at it and read it. Its entirely correct consistent and certainly not misleading.

I am looking at my toon right now while I setup for the end fight in "New Invasion". The first spell I intend to cast says DC 38 (my current running DC). If it read DC 36, I would think it fine but nothing special. Soon, it will read DC 39.

No bards were harmed or used to buff my DC.

[Aspenor]

All bards should be spell singers? What a joke. Warchanters > Spell Singers.

[Aspenor]

Anyway, from my calculations, a maxxed-out DC on a drow, pre-spellsinger, is something like:

10 Base
16 Charisma Mod (42 Cha)
2 Focus Feats
9 Heightened Spells
2 Dreamspitter/Petitioner
1 Yugoloth Pots
=42

Obviously it can go several higher with stuff you're not likely to be using.

[Junts]

Anyway, from my calculations, a maxxed-out DC on a drow, pre-spellsinger, is something like:

10 Base
16 Charisma Mod (42 Cha)
2 Focus Feats
9 Heightened Spells
2 Dreamspitter/Petitioner
1 Yugoloth Pots
=42

Obviously it can go several higher with stuff you're not likely to be using.

Asp, that adds up to 40.