Calculate DC

[tinyelvis]

what about a 1400 Polar Ray critical hit on a mob with 200 HP? what about polar ray that are missed? how about those who use ranged weapons? how about mob that aggro on you and force you to move instead of keep shooting polar ray? if you say the melees have to run to the next target, there are more factors that you should consider.

I don't understand your point here. Its true I did claim melees must run to next target, are you claiming they don't? Surely you realize that moving does not change the amount of time they spend in melee. How does mob aggro and forcing a caster to move change that he spent 12 seconds casting his 5 polar rays. I was unaware that spell cast time or rate of attacks was a function of movement. Over the course of say, 15 minutes, the fact that melee move does not change how long they are actually in melee. Among other things, its more a function of the number of monster they fight and the damage they do.

And I don't think the bard take warchanter for running New Invasion that a party may not have a melee at all. They take for boost the damage of melees in raid.

So, you are saying taking a warchanter is not a good idea, at least in this quest. I might be mistaken but it seems you are agreeing with me here.

for new invasion, when my sorc run in a normal full party with melees, with only 2900 mana (excl. bauble), I have to be very conservative in using mana before arriving the 2nd shrine in the 3rd floor.

So, you are arguing my point of view again here right? Won't the bard song help you gain like 330 pts of mana here. Might this not help you alot, even if you are only performing a support role.

(I don't like to waste time to DD and run back) and for sure I won't try to out-dps the melees with polar ray at all.

Ill take your word that you do, but if you only perform a support role, how do you run out of mana?

Perhaps I missed something, but didn't the majority of this post back up my previous statemtnents....thanks...I guess.

[tinyelvis]

But remember tiny has the following conviction regarding the role of the sorceror:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyelvis
offensive casting is a whole different style of play. It involves completely shutting down the enemy so that anyone else in the party need only clean up a bit. It involves putting out more DPS in the end fight than any other party member. Offensive casters take as a priority enhancements, spells and feats that only boost their offensive capability. A sorcerer can play this role. Two sorcerers spec'd well can play this role twice as well. This means, a sorc spec'd and played like this can step into the role of main DPS if he desires, and there is room for more than one of these fellows in a party.

So it makes sense that the rest of the party are there to aid the sorc in his role as "main dps". Otherwise they're only there to "clean up a bit".

Ah,Good a quote. We all may wonder what context this was drawn from and where the source was but at least he is using a quote. So if you were to reply,

An aggressive man may draw a knife and plunge it into the heart of his neighbor.

Following your original logic, I might then claim, "Well, transtemporal has the above conviction regarding the role of the man in society toward his neighbor." We better lock him up. Hmm, that's the trouble with cherry picking quotes out of context. They often don't make total sense. And in the above case, does not even connect my convictions to a comment I may or may not have made. Further, they really don't show the person in question's conviction but rather the bias and distaste of another toward him.

Look I can also cleverly draw quotes out of context, without a reference.

Not only do I have to do all the work myself because melee is soooo ineffective, I have to put up with their complaining too!

I guess we see that transtemporal has the above conviction regarding the role of himself and lack of that of others. Maybe I should start a thread in the main discussion forum with this quote. I could see how many other school girls I could get to titter with me. Quick T, run back and find another quote.

[ddoer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddoer View Post

what about a 1400 Polar Ray critical hit on a mob with 200 HP? what about polar ray that are missed? how about those who use ranged weapons? how about mob that aggro on you and force you to move instead of keep shooting polar ray? if you say the melees have to run to the next target, there are more factors that you should consider.

I don't understand your point here. Its true I did claim melees must run to next target, are you claiming they don't? Surely you realize that moving does not change the amount of time they spend in melee. How does mob aggro and forcing a caster to move change that he spent 12 seconds casting his 5 polar rays. I was unaware that spell cast time or rate of attacks was a function of movement. Over the course of say, 15 minutes, the fact that melee move does not change how long they are actually in melee. Among other things, its more a function of the number of monster they fight and the damage they do.

And I don't think the bard take warchanter for running New Invasion that a party may not have a melee at all. They take for boost the damage of melees in raid.

So, you are saying taking a warchanter is not a good idea, at least in this quest. I might be mistaken but it seems you are agreeing with me here.

for new invasion, when my sorc run in a normal full party with melees, with only 2900 mana (excl. bauble), I have to be very conservative in using mana before arriving the 2nd shrine in the 3rd floor.

So, you are arguing my point of view again here right? Won't the bard song help you gain like 330 pts of mana here. Might this not help you alot, even if you are only performing a support role.

(I don't like to waste time to DD and run back) and for sure I won't try to out-dps the melees with polar ray at all.

Ill take your word that you do, but if you only perform a support role, how do you run out of mana?
Perhaps I missed something, but didn't the majority of this post back up my previous statemtnents....thanks...I guess.

as i understand, you are saying a bard could help the party more as a spellsinger than a warchanter, and perhaps imply some bard should go for spellsinger

• when the bards consider between warchanter and spellsinger, they will concern raid quests like ToD, VoD, Hound, Shroud etc. rather than new invasion. and in these quests, most party members are melees. so it is unrealistic to expect most bard to be spellsinger that could help us to improve our DC. Notice that I do wish more bards to become spellsingers, however.
• you tried to give damage figures to support your argument. but I think the figures are not fair, e.g. you calculate the caster damage including crit hit, but for melee you assume every swing is non-crit, you used a "max potential damage" (i.e. the 2400 number) that will never realize (because of factors that i have mentioned in the previous post) for casters but you don't use a "max potential damage" for melees saying they have to run to the target. What if I say when they run to the target, every swing will hit, but the polar ray may miss because a target is suddenly got killed? you won't feel the argument is fair.
• "The 2 melee in the party would need hit 2400 times. Hitting once a second i", not only it omitted the factor of critical hit, you also understate the number of hits per second. The exactly calculation is more complex than I can explain. Take the highest figure from the cforce's Compleat Attack Speed Index thread (for mod 8), a BAB 16 unarmed guy could produce 90 + 90 attacks per minute, i.e. 3 attacks per second. This figure has not included haste and other speed boost effects. (and i'm not sure if special attacks like sneak attack or glancing blow will be benefited from bard songs or not) And in case you don't know, the bard song add damage to every attack.
• "how many minutes of actual melee fighting time is actually spent here? I would say it may be as low as 5 minutes." - i seldom run with melee and indeed i think melee doesn't contribute too much in New Invasion so I can't tell. And you have used this assumed figure to support your argument.
• what if a bard joined a 3 melees + 1 caster + 1 cleric + 1 bard new invasion group?

re. support rule, i don't know what is a support role. New Invasion is unlike Genesis Point or Bastion that has enough rest shrines. After started the quest, there are 2 and a half floors to run and fight before you reach the second rest shrine at 3/F. Max'd nor Emp'd Polar Ray costs 57 spell point for me, with your 3500+400(bauble) mana, I can shoot for 68 times. Assume your spell hit for every time (it's doable), how many mobs you can kill? or are you saying you keep DD and ask the whole party to wait for you to get mana back? or you convince to whole party to go stealth? I am interested to know how you lead the party and manage your mana in New Invasion when in a full party.

Maybe spell singers in all parties was an exaggeration by me, however, certainly all quests would benefit by this.

it is as simple as, when there is a caster, or consider the bard himself is a caster, spellsinger would benefit the party. The question is, whether warchanter or spellsinger contribute more.

[tinyelvis]

as i understand, you are saying a bard could help the party more as a spellsinger than a warchanter, and perhaps imply some bard should go for spellsinger

• when the bards consider between warchanter and spellsinger, they will concern raid quests like ToD, VoD, Hound, Shroud etc. rather than new invasion. and in these quests, most party members are melees. so it is unrealistic to expect most bard to be spellsinger that could help us to improve our DC. Notice that I do wish more bards to become spellsingers, however.

In my post I did point out I was speaking only of quests. I disagree with your statement about party makeup outside of raids.

• you tried to give damage figures to support your argument. but I think the figures are not fair, e.g. you calculate the caster damage including crit hit, but for melee you assume every swing is non-crit, you used a "max potential damage" (i.e. the 2400 number) that will never realize (because of factors that i have mentioned in the previous post) for casters but you don't use a "max potential damage" for melees saying they have to run to the target. What if I say when they run to the target, every swing will hit, but the polar ray may miss because a target is suddenly got killed? you won't feel the argument is fair.

That's true and good point but it was only 2 points and they crit so infrequently (did I just write that...boy, am I gonna get flamed). This might speed things up minutely for them but still my point is valid I believe. As for the caster, you really have to take that into consideration being its like 20% more damage.

• "The 2 melee in the party would need hit 2400 times. Hitting once a second i", not only it omitted the factor of critical hit, you also understate the number of hits per second. The exactly calculation is more complex than I can explain. Take the highest figure from the cforce's Compleat Attack Speed Index thread (for mod 8), a BAB 16 unarmed guy could produce 90 + 90 attacks per minute, i.e. 3 attacks per second. This figure has not included haste and other speed boost effects. (and i'm not sure if special attacks like sneak attack or glancing blow will be benefited from bard songs or not) And in case you don't know, the bard song add damage to every attack.

Its really impossible to determine actual DPS over say a 5 - 10 minute period. So many things are happening. They move attack, have their target fingers just before they kill it, then they move to next target, maybe get tripped by air elemental, get up, watch the air elemental get destructed, move to earth elemental, hit again some more, then watch him disappear with a finger attack.... you get the picture. So, I just guessed.

• "how many minutes of actual melee fighting time is actually spent here? I would say it may be as low as 5 minutes." - i seldom run with melee and indeed i think melee doesn't contribute too much in New Invasion so I can't tell. And you have used this assumed figure to support your argument.
• what if a bard joined a 3 melees + 1 caster + 1 cleric + 1 bard new invasion group?

I would quit the group out of disgust.

re. support rule, i don't know what is a support role. New Invasion is unlike Genesis Point or Bastion that has enough rest shrines. After started the quest, there are 2 and a half floors to run and fight before you reach the second rest shrine at 3/F. Max'd nor Emp'd Polar Ray costs 57 spell point for me, with your 3500+400(bauble) mana, I can shoot for 68 times. Assume your spell hit for every time (it's doable), how many mobs you can kill? or are you saying you keep DD and ask the whole party to wait for you to get mana back? or you convince to whole party to go stealth? I am interested to know how you lead the party and manage your mana in New Invasion when in a full party.



it is as simple as, when there is a caster, or consider the bard himself is a caster, spellsinger would benefit the party. The question is, whether warchanter or spellsinger contribute more.

Its was just a silly comment. I cant even get bards to offer up any useful advice. Personally, I like the spell singers.