Calculate DC

[Aspenor]

Asp, that adds up to 40.

Oh...brain fart. 42 was supposed to be the number with House D and Turbine store pots.

[Junts]

Oh...brain fart. 42 was supposed to be the number with House D and Turbine store pots.

Which just gets back to the original point being that 39-40 dc requires a depth of spec that will not commonly occur, since it requires you to have two spell focuses and cast only necro or enchant spells.

[tinyelvis]

Which just gets back to the original point being that 39-40 dc requires a depth of spec that will not commonly occur, since it requires you to have two spell focuses and cast only necro or enchant spells.

Nostradamus, why again will double focus not be a common occurrence? I see a lot of people doing this now.

[tinyelvis]

All bards should be spell singers? What a joke. Warchanters > Spell Singers.

So Kensai, you mock without giving us your insight. Please instruct us, what are the differences in buffs to melees that a Spell singer can give compared to a warchanter. Thankyou in advance for your enlightenment.

[Visty]

So Kensai, you mock without giving us your insight. Please instruct us, what are the differences in buffs to melees that a Spell singer can give compared to a warchanter. Thankyou in advance for your enlightenment.

Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves

2 more dmg per hit and that adds up compared to the 0 your spellsinger gives

[transtemporal]

The idea that all bards should be spellsingers to help you out is laughable;

But remember tiny has the following conviction regarding the role of the sorceror:

Offensive casting is a whole different style of play. It involves completely shutting down the enemy so that anyone else in the party need only clean up a bit. It involves putting out more DPS in the end fight than any other party member. Offensive casters take as a priority enhancements, spells and feats that only boost their offensive capability. A sorcerer can play this role. Two sorcerers spec'd well can play this role twice as well. This means, a sorc spec'd and played like this can step into the role of main DPS if he desires, and there is room for more than one of these fellows in a party.

So it makes sense that the rest of the party are there to aid the sorc in his role as "main dps". Otherwise they're only there to "clean up a bit".

[Emili]

Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves

2 more dmg per hit and that adds up compared to the 0 your spellsinger gives

It is 2 more over the spellsinger... a typical spell singer always takes the max damage enhancements to IC anyway...

No not always... but many times I've seen chanter just on par with a singer because the the chanter splashed ... or the chanter was so busy adding in enhancements towards own personal HP or damage in build i.e. - I know many dwarves bard/barb splash who go for the con or the axes or both rather then spend on full damages... trying to accomplish too much. People do not think I notice such things

So really it all depends on who built it... technically chanters will be 2 over yet I have known many where they just equalled the singer.

[Visty]

It is 2 more over the spellsinger... a typical spell singer adds takes the max damage enhancements to IC anyway...

Many times I've seen spellsingers on par or one behind a chanter because the the chanter splashed ... or the chanter was so busy adding in enhancements towards own personal HP or damage in build i.e. - I know many dwarves bard/barb splash who go for the con or the axes or both rather then spend on full damages... trying to accomplish too much.

So really it all depends on who built it... technically chanters will be 2 over yet I have known many where they just equalled the singer.

yes, so?
thats exactly what i said, just more words

[tinyelvis]

Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves

2 more dmg per hit and that adds up compared to the 0 your spellsinger gives

Essentially we are talking about a +2 to damage for all melee.

On the other hand, a spell singer will add 10% mana and +1 DC to all casters.
For a sorcerer that is like 350 spell points between shrines. This is like 5-6 additional polar rays per caster one of which should be a crit.

Conservatively lets look at,
4 polar rays + 1 crit polar = 350*4 + 1000 = 2400 extra damage

That's the equivalent of melees hitting 1200 times with a warchanter. And that is just one caster. 2 casters and a bard in a party will produce 4800 extra damage with this song. The 2 melee in the party would need hit 2400 times. Hitting once a second it would take them 20 minutes to make up the difference (That of course is assuming they have targets to fight).

This is just the casters, the healer also gets more points to heal or combat with further adding to party resources and damage output potential. This is just the 10% bonus. The fighter output is further reduced if you were to factor in the addition to damage that a +1 DC brings to the table.

Maybe spell singers in all parties was an exaggeration by me, however, certainly all quests would benefit by this.

Kensai master Aspenor, what gives....I thought you said warchanters were greater?

[gfunk]

I think duel focuses will be important.. either going enchantment or necormancy. here is how i see it:

Charisma:
Gear will be changing now that rings are available. In the past a sorc needed to put a charisma weapon in his hand which eliminated the possibility for a two handed focus staff.

Human sorc charisma
18 base
1 human enhancement
3 sorc enhancement
5 levels
4 tome (or a +3 tome with abbot trinket)
9 items (with +3 on crafted ring)
40 total charisma (total modifier +15, or +14 for the more commenplace 38 charisma.. more with pots)

drow sorc charisma
20 base
3 sorc enhancement
5 levels
4 tome
1 abbot trinket
9 items (with +3 on crafted ring)
42 total charisma (total modifier +16, or +15 for the more commenplace 40 charisma.. more with pots)

necromancy focus dc:
+10 (base)
+2 (staff of the petitioner)
+9 (dc with heighten)
+2 (duel focus feats)
+14 to +16 (38 to 42 charisma)
+38 to +40 DC (not including pots)

enchantment focus dc:
+10 (base)
+2 (dreamspitter)
+9 (dc with heighten)
+2 (duel focus feats)
+14 to +16 (38 to 42 charisma)
+38 to +40 DC (not including pots)


** edit, bah.. too slow typing, already explained prior

[Visty]

Essentially we are talking about a +2 to damage for all melee.

On the other hand, a spell singer will add 10% mana and +1 DC to all casters.
For a sorcerer that is like 350 spell points between shrines. This is like 5-6 additional polar rays per caster one of which should be a crit.

Conservatively lets look at,
4 polar rays + 1 crit polar = 350*4 + 1000 = 2400 extra damage

That's the equivalent of melees hitting 1200 times with a warchanter. And that is just one caster. 2 casters and a bard in a party will produce 4800 extra damage with this song. The 2 melee in the party would need hit 2400 times. Hitting once a second it would take them 20 minutes to make up the difference (That of course is assuming they have targets to fight).

This is just the casters, the healer also gets more points to heal or combat with further adding to party resources and damage output potential. This is just the 10% bonus. The fighter output is further reduced if you were to factor in the addition to damage that a +1 DC brings to the table.

Maybe spell singers in all parties was an exaggeration by me, however, certainly all quests would benefit by this.

Kensai master Aspenor, what gives....I thought you said warchanters were greater?

well, considering that melees hit 3-4 times per second, cut your 20mins down to 5 and suddenly warchanters shine again

[tinyelvis]

well, considering that melees hit 3-4 times per second, cut your 20mins down to 5 and suddenly warchanters shine again

No they don't. Unless they automatically teleport to targets. A melee will rarely hit near that often. Only against a tough raid boss, do you see anywhere near the theoretical max. In regular quest, the majority of a melee's time is spent moving from one target to the next. 20 minutes is giving them too much.

In a quest like "New Invasion" say that take perhaps 30 to 40 minutes to complete, how many minutes of actual melee fighting time is actually spent here? I would say it may be as low as 5 minutes. Can it be more than 10 minutes? But we really are only talking about damage output between shrines. Here, the actual time between shrines is maybe not more than 10 or 15 minutes (let alone the melee contact combat time). Where as, a spell caster can cast those 5 polar rays in 12 seconds. And then get more points at shrine. Even if the melee combated constantly from start to finish of this quest, teleporting to each new target, I dont believe they could make up the damage deficit.

I don't understand why people think warchanters are better for the party. Perhaps they are, but not for the reasons given here.

[Visty]

Charisma:
Gear will be changing now that rings are available. In the past a sorc needed to put a charisma weapon in his hand which eliminated the possibility for a two handed focus staff.

thats not true

get cha +1 on your armor and take the greater focus staff

youre down 1dc cause you loose except cha+2 but up 2 dc for the staff which nets a +1

that ofc is when you dont wear napkin but even then you can free your cloakspot and save 10%sp each cast (for the abbotstaff) or have the whoo-whoo effect (with the dreamspitter)

[Emili]

I don't understand why people think warchanters are better for the party. Perhaps they are, but not for the reasons given here.

General speaking I tend to feel more akin with you that spellsinger output being better on a party in general... on average. The Chanters song may be up to +1/+2 to-hit/damage then the singer (btw a lvl 20 fighter kensei get 1.5 swings a second for single weapon - doubled for twf, before haste, haste boost... ) The overall party strength still comes out slightly ahead on an average party with the singer adding dc and mana into the non-melee = melee gets buffed + casters get buffed. Whole party grasping a little edge rather than melee grabbing bulk of it all.

What I mean by this is take a party of six or 12... a few melee (ranger, barb, rogue, bard) and a few none (sorc, cleric). With one bard songs are increasing 4 members to be tops ... with the other bard's song it increases all members to be better, Now lets say the barb and/or rogue are just a hair towards the lower end of the average melee for their class/build... the result be even less helpful on over all party strength where those two characters are effective... thus the singer deals a party more margin for error as the other two non-melee characters are brought up to compensate even more for the lack of the other two builds. DDO is a group game for most the concept of undertaking.

When it comes to bard's I really am not choosy on chanter vs singer... play what you like, I play with bards I know and I have to say they fall into either category.

I can understand conjecture over which one is better ... but seriously now, If people are going to argue over +2 damages or +1 DC from a bard's song then maybe every ranger made should be an exploiter, every Kensei a THF WF and every rogue an Taz.

[transtemporal]

For a sorcerer that is like 350 spell points between shrines.

I look forward to seeing your 3500 sorc spellpoint breakdown.

[tinyelvis]

I think duel focuses will be important.. either going enchantment or necormancy. here is how i see it:

Charisma:
Gear will be changing now that rings are available. In the past a sorc needed to put a charisma weapon in his hand which eliminated the possibility for a two handed focus staff.

Human sorc charisma
18 base
1 human enhancement
3 sorc enhancement
5 levels
4 tome (or a +3 tome with abbot trinket)
9 items (with +3 on crafted ring)
40 total charisma (total modifier +15, or +14 for the more commenplace 38 charisma.. more with pots)

drow sorc charisma
20 base
3 sorc enhancement
5 levels
4 tome
1 abbot trinket
9 items (with +3 on crafted ring)
42 total charisma (total modifier +16, or +15 for the more commenplace 40 charisma.. more with pots)

necromancy focus dc:
+10 (base)
+2 (staff of the petitioner)
+9 (dc with heighten)
+2 (duel focus feats)
+14 to +16 (38 to 42 charisma)
+38 to +40 DC (not including pots)

enchantment focus dc:
+10 (base)
+2 (dreamspitter)
+9 (dc with heighten)
+2 (duel focus feats)
+14 to +16 (38 to 42 charisma)
+38 to +40 DC (not including pots)


** edit, bah.. too slow typing, already explained prior

Yes, the rings now open up the door for more specialization and more options. One of which is ultra high DC. I think we should talk more in DC now than Charisma like in the past. I think 39 is your max now, however. 40 is really what should be considered max since 99 out of 100 times you are running with EOS on. And therefore, 39 will be the typical easy to obtain running DC in the same way the 38 charisma represented it in the past.

[ddoer]

But remember tiny has the following conviction regarding the role of the sorceror:


Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
Offensive casting is a whole different style of play. It involves completely shutting down the enemy so that anyone else in the party need only clean up a bit. It involves putting out more DPS in the end fight than any other party member. Offensive casters take as a priority enhancements, spells and feats that only boost their offensive capability. A sorcerer can play this role. Two sorcerers spec'd well can play this role twice as well. This means, a sorc spec'd and played like this can step into the role of main DPS if he desires, and there is room for more than one of these fellows in a party.


So it makes sense that the rest of the party are there to aid the sorc in his role as "main dps". Otherwise they're only there to "clean up a bit".

i wish people in the other classes could be educated to aid us to act as main dps. and not to complaint too often about shield blocking for firewall.

well, considering that melees hit 3-4 times per second, cut your 20mins down to 5 and suddenly warchanters shine again

No they don't. Unless they automatically teleport to targets. A melee will rarely hit near that often. Only against a tough raid boss, do you see anywhere near the theoretical max. In regular quest, the majority of a melee's time is spent moving from one target to the next. 20 minutes is giving them too much.

In a quest like "New Invasion" say that take perhaps 30 to 40 minutes to complete, how many minutes of actual melee fighting time is actually spent here? I would say it may be as low as 5 minutes. Can it be more than 10 minutes? But we really are only talking about damage output between shrines. Here, the actual time between shrines is maybe not more than 10 or 15 minutes (let alone the melee contact combat time). Where as, a spell caster can cast those 5 polar rays in 12 seconds. And then get more points at shrine. Even if the melee combated constantly from start to finish of this quest, teleporting to each new target, I dont believe they could make up the damage deficit.

I don't understand why people think warchanters are better for the party. Perhaps they are, but not for the reasons given here.

what about a 1400 Polar Ray critical hit on a mob with 200 HP? what about polar ray that are missed? how about those who use ranged weapons? how about mob that aggro on you and force you to move instead of keep shooting polar ray? if you say the melees have to run to the next target, there are more factors that you should consider.

And I don't think the bard take warchanter for running New Invasion that a party may not have a melee at all. They take for boost the damage of melees in raid.

I look forward to seeing your 3500 sorc spellpoint breakdown.

for new invasion, when my sorc run in a normal full party with melees, with only 2900 mana (excl. bauble), I have to be very conservative in using mana before arriving the 2nd shrine in the 3rd floor. (I don't like to waste time to DD and run back) and for sure I won't try to out-dps the melees with polar ray at all. I'm more interested to learn how elvis spend the mana in new invasion.

indeed, short-man is much easier, esp when in 1-man or 2-man party, you could easily run pass most mob in stealth without any fight. And that dps doesn't matter.

[gfunk]

thats not true

get cha +1 on your armor and take the greater focus staff

youre down 1dc cause you loose except cha+2 but up 2 dc for the staff which nets a +1

that ofc is when you dont wear napkin but even then you can free your cloakspot and save 10%sp each cast (for the abbotstaff) or have the whoo-whoo effect (with the dreamspitter)

well, I always assumed that all casters (pre mod 9) wore the napkin! but to each their own

[Drekisen]

My casters will be happy with a chanter or a singer, I use my ranged weapon when I run out of mana or need to conserve in raid boss fights, so either helps me

Overall, maxxed bard songs, no matter which of the three prestige enhancement lines they take if any, is a great addition to the party.....even the "lowly" virtuoso.

[transtemporal]

i wish people in the other classes could be educated to aid us to act as main dps. and not to complaint too often about shield blocking for firewall.

I know! Not only do I have to do all the work myself because melee is soooo ineffective, I have to put up with their complaining too! I just need to get my DC for ray of enfeeblement and polar ray higher to maximize my DPS output so I can solo everything with my 3500sp sorc!