Falchion Pure Monk?

[Aerendil]

Hi, welcome FAV!

[tenketsu2]

Hi, my name is Favored Soul, but my friends call me FAV.

You're right, of course; my mistake.

[Angelus_dead]

Ok, here's a simple arithmetic comparison:
Add up the percentage increased attack speed from Wind Stance IV and Handwrap animation.
Add up the percentage more crits from Falchion weapons.

Compare those two percentages, noting that while crits only help physical / burst damage (and can be countered by monster Fortification), attack speed applies to all the damage of your hits.

What do you conclude?

[Aerendil]

Ok, here's a simple arithmetic comparison:
Add up the percentage increased attack speed from Wind Stance IV and Handwrap animation.
Add up the percentage more crits from Falchion weapons.

Compare those two percentages, noting that while crits only help physical / burst damage (and can be countered by monster Fortification), attack speed applies to all the damage of your hits.

What do you conclude?

Not sure if you can calculate this as well, but I would also throw into the mix that handwrap = stunning fist = free-insta crits. The only things that can top that are a Rogue with radiance weapons, or a high STR stunning blow meleer with heavy picks IMO.

Seriously. If you want to use falchions, you lose out on 80% of what makes a Monk a Monk.
Make an Elven Paladin with a Monk splash. Seriously. With exalted smites you'll be doing disgusting damage and have plenty of crits. And at least you still get some form of haste (via Zeal).

[tenketsu2]

Ok, here's a simple arithmetic comparison:
Add up the percentage increased attack speed from Wind Stance IV and Handwrap animation.
Add up the percentage more crits from Falchion weapons.

Compare those two percentages, noting that while crits only help physical / burst damage (and can be countered by monster Fortification), attack speed applies to all the damage of your hits.

What do you conclude?

Well that's part of the sticking point.

Assuming Haste, the highest Wind Stance adds 10% alacrity. I have no idea how much faster TWF Unarmed is than Falchion. This makes comparison difficult.

However, I do know that Falchion's are 3 times as likely to crit per swing than unarmed.

Yes, Fortification does work in unarmed's favor unerringly.

However, on the other side, DR works in favor of Falchion, both in terms of being more easily bypassed and in terms of applying per swing (thus hurting a weaker but faster sequence more than a stronger and slower sequence).

[Angelus_dead]

I have no idea how much faster TWF Unarmed is than Falchion. This makes comparison difficult.

About 10% more.

However, I do know that Falchion's are 3 times as likely to crit per swing than unarmed.

Which means an additional 20% of the attacks are criticals.

However, on the other side, DR works in favor of Falchion, both in terms of being more easily bypassed

There are monk-compatible weapons.

in terms of applying per swing (thus hurting a weaker but faster sequence more than a stronger and slower sequence).

It's inaccurate to call the falchion's per-strike damage "stronger" than that of handwraps.

[Creeper]

Compared to an arcane caster, you're gaining a significant amount of HP and base attack, and you don't have to add a 5th required stat.

Compared to any caster, you're not having to use SP on buffs (and most of them can be cast on you by an ally or clicky anyway), and your permanent monk abilities can't be dispelled and work against Beholders.

There are things Monks can do that nothing else can, not even a Monk splash. Most of them don't care if you have a sword in hand or not. Now, in practice it may not turn out so well. But it sounds pretty fun to me in theory, especially since it seems no one's really done it before.

EDIT: Forgot FvS saves.

Right, and being able to splash monk or paladin like you said, well, makes this build even less favorable. There goes the armor bonus right there, except for the armor per level, which can be made up for with PREs or spells, or auras, etc, given by other classes.

What you say about buffs is applicable to any other class as well(clickies/cast by others.).

Also you mention not being pally freeing up charisma as a dump stat where I would say that not being monk will free up wisdom as a dump stat.

So, in the end, what are you actually gaining that cannot be achieved by multiclassing aside from dr/10 at cap and spell resistance?

If you want to compare it to an arcane caster and cite the reason as BAB or Hitpoints then I would suggest making a multiclass arcane caster/barbarian/paladin/fighter with more hit points than any monk and a higher BAB as well. Not to mention rage, displacement, blur, firewall, shield, stoneskin and other lower level spells.

If the whole point of this build is just to do something different then it's not something that we can debate, because it is definatly something no one else is doing. Just trying to point out how weak it will be compared to other alternatives.

[tenketsu2]

About 10% more.


Which means an additional 20% of the attacks are criticals.

Ok, that sounds to me like they're roughly equal, then.

There are monk-compatible weapons.

Sure, but Kama and Quarterstaff aren't even close to as nice as unarmed.

It's inaccurate to call the falchion's per-strike damage "stronger" than that of handwraps.

How so? It's true the base damage is less, but gaining x1.5 Strength per hit and getting double the bonus from power attack would seem to more than balance that.

[tenketsu2]

Right, and being able to splash monk or paladin like you said, well, makes this build even less favorable. There goes the armor bonus right there, except for the armor per level, which can be made up for with PREs or spells, or auras, etc, given by other classes.

What you say about buffs is applicable to any other class as well(clickies/cast by others.).

Also you mention not being pally freeing up charisma as a dump stat where I would say that not being monk will free up wisdom as a dump stat.

So, in the end, what are you actually gaining that cannot be achieved by multiclassing aside from dr/10 at cap and spell resistance?

If you want to compare it to an arcane caster and cite the reason as BAB or Hitpoints then I would suggest making a multiclass arcane caster/barbarian/paladin/fighter with more hit points than any monk and a higher BAB as well. Not to mention rage, displacement, blur, firewall, shield, stoneskin and other lower level spells.

If the whole point of this build is just to do something different then it's not something that we can debate, because it is definatly something no one else is doing. Just trying to point out how weak it will be compared to other alternatives.

I'm... not sure what your point is. Yes, other builds exist that can do any specific thing I'm trying to do with this build, and better. I admit that freely. What I like about this build is the specific /mix/ of abilities it offers, which I don't think can be accomplished as well with anything else. Maybe that specific mix just isn't worth the tradeoffs, or maybe it's up to personal preference. I don't know, I'm trying to find out.

On paper it sounds attractive to me. In practice it may fall apart. Worst case, I respec my feats and enhancements and have a basic Str Monk with a sub-optimal race choice. Best case, I end up with a highly unique and workable Monk that's fun to play.

And yes, a large part of the draw is simply that apparently no one's ever explored this option before.

[Creeper]

I'm... not sure what your point is. Yes, other builds exist that can do any specific thing I'm trying to do with this build, and better. I admit that freely. What I like about this build is the specific /mix/ of abilities it offers, which I don't think can be accomplished as well with anything else. Maybe that specific mix just isn't worth the tradeoffs, or maybe it's up to personal preference. I don't know, I'm trying to find out.

On paper it sounds attractive to me. In practice it may fall apart. Worst case, I respec my feats and enhancements and have a basic Str Monk with a sub-optimal race choice. Best case, I end up with a highly unique and workable Monk that's fun to play.

And yes, a large part of the draw is simply that apparently no one's ever explored this option before.

I just wanted to make sure you knew. That was my point. When you mention the specific mix of abilites that this build offers that cannot be achieved with any other mix, what abilities are you talking about?

The only reason I ask is because I think perhaps there may be a way to accomplish them afterall and gain much more on top of that.

[tenketsu2]

Well I went ahead and made the concept, and I have to say that so far it's been a blast. He's only level 6 at the moment, however, so we'll have to see if it falls apart when he gets to the mid-levels. But so far it's actually been both more effective and more fun than I was hoping. The survivability and mobility of a monk means he can go anywhere he wants, and the Falchion lets him lay out group damage wherever it's most handy when he gets there. When he eventually takes a little damage, he switches to a staff and builds up some ki for Fists of Light and Healing Ki, then it's back to full beatdown mode. Like I said, it may fall apart later, but so far I'm loving it.

[Creeper]

Well I went ahead and made the concept, and I have to say that so far it's been a blast. He's only level 6 at the moment, however, so we'll have to see if it falls apart when he gets to the mid-levels. But so far it's actually been both more effective and more fun than I was hoping. The survivability and mobility of a monk means he can go anywhere he wants, and the Falchion lets him lay out group damage wherever it's most handy when he gets there. When he eventually takes a little damage, he switches to a staff and builds up some ki for Fists of Light and Healing Ki, then it's back to full beatdown mode. Like I said, it may fall apart later, but so far I'm loving it.

Are you able to use power attack yet?


With Falchion:
+ 4 bab
+ 7 str mod
+ 3 falchion
+ 2 misery set
+ 1 insight goggles
_______________
17 attack roll
-5 power attack
_______________
12 attack roll


With Quarterstaff:
+ 6 bab
+ 7 str mod
+ 3 quarterstaff
+ 2 misery set
+ 1 insight goggles
_______________
19 attack roll
-5 power attack
_______________
14 attack roll

If you miss anything on a roll of as high as an 18 you have 10% less damage with the Falchion. Adding 15% speed bonus from wind stance - If you miss on anything higher than 17 you have a +25% damage bonus when using a quarter staff.

Q staff = 1d6 + 7 str +10 power attack = 20 damage/hit rough avg
20 x2

Falchion = 2d4 + 7 str +10 power attack = 19.5 damage (I'll round it up to 20.)
18-20 x2

Currently the Falchion crits 10% more often with the same base damage and crit multiplier.



20 + 10% of the Falchion = roughly 12 damage per hit

20 + 10% attack roll bonus (If you miss a mob on a roll of an 18/ -5% damage loss per miss)
Roughly 12 damage per hit +15% speed bonus of Adept of Wind Stance

Sun Stance +2 str = 13.5 damage per hit with quarter staff minus the speed bonus of Wind Stance. Add in Walk of the Sun:
"Nearby allies gain a +2 untyped bonus to attack, saves, and skills for 60 seconds." +2 damage = 15.5 damage per hit with quarter staff. +10% if you miss on an 18.

This is not mentioning the occasional 2d6 elemental attacks from second tier monk stances.

PS. These are level 6 calculations and not taking any attack speed bonus from BAB into account, only the attack roll.

[GlassCannon]

The real kicker is the loss of 10% attack speed, which is basically the only thing that makes monks a better melee than Joe the Wizard.

I think you seem to forget that Monks at later levels hit harder than Greensteels when their damage dice alone are considered, with each attack I might add.

Yes, my Monk 20 hits harder than my Barbarian 20 on those Shroud Portals. Barb 20 uses a Mineral II Greataxe with maxed STR and GTHF, Monk uses +4 holy GCB wraps with GTWF. Both use PA, Both use Madstone. Monk hits for about 8 more damage, it seems, before Secondary damage is considered.


As for the OP question - If you really want to injure your party like that, I'd go with a Heal Amp/AC build(Monk amp 3, Human amp 3, high DEX and WIS), and use Rapiers. Halfling would be higher DPS and unnoticeably higher AC and saves, but potentially lower HP(Toughness) and slightly less survivability as the cost.

[tenketsu2]

Are you able to use power attack yet?


With Falchion:
+ 4 bab
+ 7 str mod
+ 3 falchion
+ 2 misery set
+ 1 insight goggles
_______________
17 attack roll
-5 power attack
_______________
12 attack roll


With Quarterstaff:
+ 6 bab
+ 7 str mod
+ 3 quarterstaff
+ 2 misery set
+ 1 insight goggles
_______________
19 attack roll
-5 power attack
_______________
14 attack roll

If you miss anything on a roll of as high as an 18 you have 10% less damage with the Falchion. Adding 15% speed bonus from wind stance - If you miss on anything higher than 17 you have a +25% damage bonus when using a quarter staff.

Q staff = 1d6 + 7 str +10 power attack = 20 damage/hit rough avg
20 x2

Falchion = 2d4 + 7 str +10 power attack = 19.5 damage (I'll round it up to 20.)
18-20 x2

Currently the Falchion crits 10% more often with the same base damage and crit multiplier.



20 + 10% of the Falchion = roughly 12 damage per hit

20 + 10% attack roll bonus (If you miss a mob on a roll of an 18/ -5% damage loss per miss)
Roughly 12 damage per hit +15% speed bonus of Adept of Wind Stance

Sun Stance +2 str = 13.5 damage per hit with quarter staff minus the speed bonus of Wind Stance. Add in Walk of the Sun:
"Nearby allies gain a +2 untyped bonus to attack, saves, and skills for 60 seconds." +2 damage = 15.5 damage per hit with quarter staff. +10% if you miss on an 18.

This is not mentioning the occasional 2d6 elemental attacks from second tier monk stances.

PS. These are level 6 calculations and not taking any attack speed bonus from BAB into account, only the attack roll.

Just hit level 7, and yes I picked up Power Attack at 6 and have pretty much left it on ever since--and while I can notice the difference of it on or off, it's the difference of missing 1/20 to maybe 3/20, so I'm happy with that. I also picked up the Elven +1 to-hit with Falchions, so I'm only losing 1 to-hit vs a comparable quarterstaff (at this level) and haven't decided whether to spend my next AP on another +1 or Healing Amp 2 first.

I have to say that I have more fun that I expected using a Quarterstaff as well when I pull it out (never tried one on my other Monk-types), but so far I'm still pretty sold on the Falchion.

None of the groups I've been in have said anything about me using a Falchion at all (aside from trying to gift me a Greatsword out of confusion, heh), which might be because I haven't died yet, seem to always be the one grabbing stones, and have so far been either #1 or #2 in kill count (I know it doesn't mean /much/, but it does mean /something/). This is with no real gear other than basic static quest rewards, and never having downed a potion, on a 28 point build.

Like I said, maybe it'll fall apart later, and maybe it's not actually optimal by the math, but it's doing great for me so far and it's a heck of a lot of fun.

[tenketsu2]

As for the OP question - If you really want to injure your party like that, I'd go with a Heal Amp/AC build(Monk amp 3, Human amp 3, high DEX and WIS), and use Rapiers. Halfling would be higher DPS and unnoticeably higher AC and saves, but potentially lower HP(Toughness) and slightly less survivability as the cost.

I went with an elf.

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 8

I already have a high Dex and Wis Monk/Rogue, and while she's fun too, I wanted something different from this guy.

[Creeper]

Just hit level 7, and yes I picked up Power Attack at 6 and have pretty much left it on ever since--and while I can notice the difference of it on or off, it's the difference of missing 1/20 to maybe 3/20, so I'm happy with that. I also picked up the Elven +1 to-hit with Falchions, so I'm only losing 1 to-hit vs a comparable quarterstaff (at this level) and haven't decided whether to spend my next AP on another +1 or Healing Amp 2 first.

Unless you count sun stance where you lose -2 to hit with falchion and -4 if you count Walk of the Sun. So long as you are aware that currently the Qstaff is capable of doing more damage and attacking faster due the to recent BAB changes.