Falchion Pure Monk?

[tenketsu2]

I like bizarre builds, and this is an idea that keeps seeming pretty attractive to me. Just /how/ crazy would it be to have a pure Monk that didn't use Ki weapons? By being uncentered you lose your stances, special ki attacks, 5 AC at 20(potentially?), and some to hit bonuses. But unless I'm missing something else, that's it. Now, that's a lot to miss out on, but could it be potentially viable anyway? You're gaining some potentially much better critical profiles and the ability to bypass DR without using kamas. For a monk, is this even close to an equitable trade off? Basically every complaint about Monk DPS I've read has been because of those two things.

If the idea isn't /completely/ unworkable, how would you build it? My thought, as the title indicates, is an Elven Falchion user as a sort of Samurai for aesthetics reasons, but you could just as easily go TWF Khopeshes.

EDIT: Fixed flat AC bonus reference

[Visty]

you dont loose 3 ac (well, you loose up to 2 if you cound the +4 dex from grandmaster airstance)

[bobbryan2]

Well, you wouldn't lose any AC, other than the AC you lose from not being in a stance. -5 to hit at 20, lower attack speed due to BAB loss, no monk buffs or special atacks.

The real kicker is the loss of 10% attack speed, which is basically the only thing that makes monks a better melee than Joe the Wizard.

You could do it though...

[tenketsu2]

I thought the Monk flat AC bonus only worked while centered? If not, that's even better.

[bobbryan2]

I thought the Monk flat AC bonus only worked while centered? If not, that's even better.

Well the complaint about monk DPS isn't so much about weapons, as the lack of class bonuses that enhance DPS.

Monk wind stance is the only real DPS booster they have. And you're wanting to do away with it... You'll most definitely lose any DPS you were trying to gain by using falchions.

This seems like something you could do a little better with some splashing, like 18fighter/2 monk kensai that wears robes. Or something similar.

[Creeper]

There is a reason that no one has done this before.

[Aerendil]

For the umpteenth time, Wis bonus to AC requires you to be unarmoured and uncentered ONLY.
So as long as you were wearing robes and not weighed down, yes, you could weild a falchion, scythe, or pitchfork if you were so inclined, and still get your Wis bonus.

Using non-Monk weapons, however, does result in the following:
- inability to use the Monk stances. So no wind stance for you.
- inability to use ki strikes.
- as a result, no finishing moves.
- a really annoying "!" symbol in the top right of your UI screen ingame.
- no "centered" AC bonus, which is +5 at level 20 as a pure Monk.
- no "flurry" BAB bonus, so you'd be treated as a 3/4 BAB class instead of full BAB.
Hmm, think that's it.

If you're really keen on a 2-handed weapon, though, try out Quarterstaff.
But if your heart is set on Falchion, I'd suggest a Monk splash instead. You lose practically nothing and would get all the benefits from your other class (Fighter or Paladin would work well here). 18 / 2 works best I'd wager.

[Visty]

- no "centered" AC bonus, which is +5 at level 20 as a pure Monk.

wrong

the centered ac bonus follows the same as the wismod to ac, veriefyd (sp?) several times and even confirmed by a dev

[soubal]

it's not so much a matter of "what would you lose", but more "what would you gain"?

What you gain is AC from your wisdom modifier (and you still can't be wearing armor). You also gain some immunities, and eventually DR10/epic. There's a bunch of ki-fired abilities, but being uncentered, you can't build ki.

A single level of monk is every bit as good as 20 when it comes to AC from your wis (which is utterly insane, but that's another thread). Another level gives you evasion, or one of rogue gives you sneak attack damage. At most, you need 2 levels of monk to gain the utility of a 'non centered' level 20 monk. That leaves a full 18 levels you can be building a full BAB class - Fighter, Paladin or Ranger. (Can't multi monk/barb due to alignment confilcts)

So yeah. You could do it. I don't know why you would, though.

[tenketsu2]

The reason I'm inclined to try the idea at all is to try to hybridize the Monk's great survivability (Wis to AC, Saves, Improved Evasion, Immunities, SR, Animal Paths, Healing Amp, Glancing Blow reduction, and eventually DR) with better DPS at the cost of versatility (loss of ki attacks). I realize that a monk splash would probably be a better overall character, but there's still a lot to like about the remaining class features beyond just Wis to AC and Evasion, and I already have a couple alts who only dabble in Monkitude.

Would going from a 19-20/x2 crit profile to a 15-20/x2 (and picking up +2 dam a swing via Elf) or 17-20/x3 crit profile really end up losing (or not gaining much) DPS compared to the 10% alacrity? This is something I'm unsure about, and if anyone has numbers I'd appreciate it.

I did underestimate the flat bonus to AC for monks, so if anyone knows for sure if it works while uncentered that would be a big consideration.

Also, in the latest patch the BAB-speed correlation was apparently toned way down, so that bit I'm willing to forego.

[soubal]

You're aware that BAB is more than just swing speed, yeah? You're aware that being uncentered means more than just not being able to use wind stance?

[tenketsu2]

You're aware that BAB is more than just swing speed, yeah? You're aware that being uncentered means more than just not being able to use wind stance?

Sure I am. I'm not touting this as the new uber build or anything even close to that. I'm asking more experienced monk players to help shed the light on the concept, to see what it's good at and bad at, in theory. I already know that there are non-trivial advantages to it compared to a traditional monk and a monk splash, and although I have a suspicion that those non-trivial advantages may be eclipsed by non-trivial disadvantages, I'd still like to know what they are and how they can be best used. Similarly, how the disadvantages can be best avoided. And thereby see if it'd be worth playing for fun, to be unique while not being useless.

[Kintro]

Would going from a 19-20/x2 crit profile to a 15-20/x2 (and picking up +2 dam a swing via Elf) or 17-20/x3 crit profile really end up losing (or not gaining much) DPS compared to the 10% alacrity? This is something I'm unsure about, and if anyone has numbers I'd appreciate it.

You're not just losing 10% alacrity:

1) 2d10 TWF vs 2d4 THF
2) Faster Monk unarmed animations (about 10% faster than with Kamas/Tempest)

This should be how the DPS compares using +5 Holy weapons: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=10&maxac=70

Swing speeds might be slightly out since recent changes but don't have time to check right now.

[Drekisen]

Well, aside from what a lot of people may say or think....monks are in no way gimped. And a big part of that is thier centered bonuses, ki strikes, self healing and nice buffs or debuffs depending on what path u go. I really honestly do not see anything gained by using a weapon that will take all of that away from u, it really seems like it would not be that fun, especially after u have learned all a monk has to offer and have become proficient with all thier centered abilities. Even if I was multi-classing and just using the monk as a splash I would probably use weapons and robes that would allow me to keep the centered abilities.

[tenketsu2]

You're not just losing 10% alacrity:

1) 2d10 TWF vs 2d4 THF
2) Faster Monk unarmed animations (about 10% faster than with Kamas/Tempest)

This should be how the DPS compares using +5 Holy weapons: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=10&maxac=70

Swing speeds might be slightly out since recent changes but don't have time to check right now.

Thanks for the link, I've never seen that tool before.

However, I don't think it's working quite right.

1) Isn't the Monk unarmed 1d20 rather than 2d10?
2) Also, at level 20, I'd think the Falchion would be Green Steel (2d6 instead of 2d4 I believe) with the associated bonuses, which unarmed can't get
3) It seems to be calculating unarmed to hit wrong (to my understanding TWF unarmed uses unaltered to-hit, rather than the TWF minuses and plusses for light etc)
4) It seems to be calculating unarmed damage wrong (since 'off-hand' damage for TWF unarmed uses full Strength rather than 1/2)
5) I'm not sure but it seems likely the number of TWF swings is wrong due to 3 & 4
6) I was unable to find any place on it where it takes into account your average damage per swing based on threat range and multiplier instead of just noting the range and calculating max damage on a crit/string of crits.
7) It didn't take into account the Elven +2 Hit and Damage per swing with Falchion

You're definitely right that it's more than a 10% speed loss going from TWF unarmed to THF Falchion, and it'd be nice if I knew the full loss. It would be more useful to compare TWF Khopesh from a Monk compared to TWF Unarmed however, for a more comparative test, since Unarmed also doesn't get the Glancing Blows and better reach/arc of a Falchion as well, further muddying the comparison.

[Creeper]

You're definitely right that it's more than a 10% speed loss going from TWF unarmed to THF Falchion, and it'd be nice if I knew the full loss. It would be more useful to compare TWF Khopesh from a Monk compared to TWF Unarmed however, for a more comparative test, since Unarmed also doesn't get the Glancing Blows and better reach/arc of a Falchion as well, further muddying the comparison.

The more I think about this the more I like where you are going, however..... I would offer this perspective: Instead of seeing what you are GAINING by doing this as a monk, look at what you are LOSING by not doing it as another class.

For instance:

Wizard/Sorc: Arcane Spells
Cleric/Favored Soul: Divine Spells
Paladin: Full BAB, Divine Spells, Aura, Smites, LOH
Fighter: Full BAB, STR enhancements, Weapon Spec, +1 crit range, 10% attack speed
etc etc.

As a monk doing this you get: Spell resistance, DR 10/epic, Imp Evasion, grazing hit damage reduction, what else am I missing?

I don't mention the armor because the classes I mentioned above can actually wear it or have Displacement/Blur.

Think hard about what you are losing first. The things you are gaining as a monk can all be made up in one form or another simply with spells. Perhaps consider an elven sorc/monk/pally with a falchion 16/2/2?

[Kintro]

1) Isn't the Monk unarmed 1d20 rather than 2d10?

Definitely 2d10, looking at it on my level 20 Monk right now.

2) Also, at level 20, I'd think the Falchion would be Green Steel (2d6 instead of 2d4 I believe) with the associated bonuses, which unarmed can't get

True, altered below.

3) It seems to be calculating unarmed to hit wrong (to my understanding TWF unarmed uses unaltered to-hit, rather than the TWF minuses and plusses for light etc)
4) It seems to be calculating unarmed damage wrong (since 'off-hand' damage for TWF unarmed uses full Strength rather than 1/2)
5) I'm not sure but it seems likely the number of TWF swings is wrong due to 3 & 4

These are problems with the tool, I've tried to correct them below by adding +6 offhand damage and +2 to-hit.

7) It didn't take into account the Elven +2 Hit and Damage per swing with Falchion

I had it added in as Extra damage, now moved to base as it'll multiply on crits.

Here's the updated one: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=10&maxac=70

You can click Modify at the bottom of it to tweak the numbers around. You could also try plugging the numbers into this: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=195421 . It might work better for DDO specifics.

[tenketsu2]

Definitely 2d10, looking at it on my level 20 Monk right now.

Ah, ok.

I'll grant that based on that tool, unarmed seems superior in DPS. However, I still am not convinced that it's handling critical ranges and multipliers correctly in it's average damage calculations. Even if it is, there are still other factors to consider that are harder to quantify--the reach of a Falchion compared to unarmed, the ability to be Transmuting of Pure Good, those great Green Steel effects, Glancing Blows... You could even consider the extra points in Str, Con, or Wis you could get by not having to have enough Dex to qualify for TWF.

I'm not trying to be obstinate, I'm just trying to show that there /are/ advantages that are being dismissed by most.

I did go ahead and make a more concrete example, by using that tool to compare TWF Kamas vs TWF Khopeshes. Admittedly, I doubt many consider a Kama-monk to be competitive either, but it does show, I think, that the idea is at least superior to that (arguably, depending on how much weight you place on the ki attacks) when mob AC isn't extremely high.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=10&maxac=70

For this I used basic +5 GS for both, with Weapon Focus, and assumed Greater Heroism as the only buff. I also gave the Khopeshes Oversized TWF. I used 100 SPM base and added 10% to 110 for the Kamas to account for Wind Stance.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=10&maxac=70

This is without Weapon Focus and OTWF.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=10&maxac=70

And this is with no buffs at all.

On-crit effects and effects boosted by critical multiplier are, of course, further boosted by Khopesh over Kama, while static effects (such as Holy or Bane damage) essentially do 10% more damage with the Kamas due to greater swing rate.

I realize this isn't exactly the comparison that's been being discussed, but it has far fewer unaccountable variables and I think serves as food for thought.

[tenketsu2]

The more I think about this the more I like where you are going, however..... I would offer this perspective: Instead of seeing what you are GAINING by doing this as a monk, look at what you are LOSING by not doing it as another class.

For instance:

Wizard/Sorc: Arcane Spells
Cleric/Favored Soul: Divine Spells
Paladin: Full BAB, Divine Spells, Aura, Smites, LOH
Fighter: Full BAB, STR enhancements, Weapon Spec, +1 crit range, 10% attack speed
etc etc.

As a monk doing this you get: Spell resistance, DR 10/epic, Imp Evasion, grazing hit damage reduction, what else am I missing?

I don't mention the armor because the classes I mentioned above can actually wear it or have Displacement/Blur.

Think hard about what you are losing first. The things you are gaining as a monk can all be made up in one form or another simply with spells. Perhaps consider an elven sorc/monk/pally with a falchion 16/2/2?

Compared to all but a Paladin Splash or Favored Soul, Monk has greatly superior saves, and even compared to the Paladin Splash you have an advantage in that you can keep Cha as a dump stat without impacting your saves.

Compared to all but a Monk Splash, the Monk has better AC without resorting to S&B and specific prestige classes, and even compared to a Monk Splash you're getting +4 AC (I verified for myself that the "Centered" AC bonus works while uncentered, amusingly). +5 if you count the additional +2 Wis from enhancements.

Compared to an arcane caster, you're gaining a significant amount of HP and base attack, and you don't have to add a 5th required stat.

Compared to any caster, you're not having to use SP on buffs (and most of them can be cast on you by an ally or clicky anyway), and your permanent monk abilities can't be dispelled and work against Beholders.

There are things Monks can do that nothing else can, not even a Monk splash. Most of them don't care if you have a sword in hand or not. Now, in practice it may not turn out so well. But it sounds pretty fun to me in theory, especially since it seems no one's really done it before.

EDIT: Forgot FvS saves.

[Angelus_dead]

Compared to all but a Paladin Splash, Monk has greatly superior saves

Hi, my name is Favored Soul, but my friends call me FAV.