Falchion Pure Monk?

[tenketsu2]

I like bizarre builds, and this is an idea that keeps seeming pretty attractive to me. Just /how/ crazy would it be to have a pure Monk that didn't use Ki weapons? By being uncentered you lose your stances, special ki attacks, 5 AC at 20(potentially?), and some to hit bonuses. But unless I'm missing something else, that's it. Now, that's a lot to miss out on, but could it be potentially viable anyway? You're gaining some potentially much better critical profiles and the ability to bypass DR without using kamas. For a monk, is this even close to an equitable trade off? Basically every complaint about Monk DPS I've read has been because of those two things.

If the idea isn't /completely/ unworkable, how would you build it? My thought, as the title indicates, is an Elven Falchion user as a sort of Samurai for aesthetics reasons, but you could just as easily go TWF Khopeshes.

EDIT: Fixed flat AC bonus reference

[Visty]

you dont loose 3 ac (well, you loose up to 2 if you cound the +4 dex from grandmaster airstance)

[bobbryan2]

Well, you wouldn't lose any AC, other than the AC you lose from not being in a stance. -5 to hit at 20, lower attack speed due to BAB loss, no monk buffs or special atacks.

The real kicker is the loss of 10% attack speed, which is basically the only thing that makes monks a better melee than Joe the Wizard.

You could do it though...

[tenketsu2]

I thought the Monk flat AC bonus only worked while centered? If not, that's even better.

[bobbryan2]

I thought the Monk flat AC bonus only worked while centered? If not, that's even better.

Well the complaint about monk DPS isn't so much about weapons, as the lack of class bonuses that enhance DPS.

Monk wind stance is the only real DPS booster they have. And you're wanting to do away with it... You'll most definitely lose any DPS you were trying to gain by using falchions.

This seems like something you could do a little better with some splashing, like 18fighter/2 monk kensai that wears robes. Or something similar.

[Creeper]

There is a reason that no one has done this before.

[Aerendil]

For the umpteenth time, Wis bonus to AC requires you to be unarmoured and uncentered ONLY.
So as long as you were wearing robes and not weighed down, yes, you could weild a falchion, scythe, or pitchfork if you were so inclined, and still get your Wis bonus.

Using non-Monk weapons, however, does result in the following:
- inability to use the Monk stances. So no wind stance for you.
- inability to use ki strikes.
- as a result, no finishing moves.
- a really annoying "!" symbol in the top right of your UI screen ingame.
- no "centered" AC bonus, which is +5 at level 20 as a pure Monk.
- no "flurry" BAB bonus, so you'd be treated as a 3/4 BAB class instead of full BAB.
Hmm, think that's it.

If you're really keen on a 2-handed weapon, though, try out Quarterstaff.
But if your heart is set on Falchion, I'd suggest a Monk splash instead. You lose practically nothing and would get all the benefits from your other class (Fighter or Paladin would work well here). 18 / 2 works best I'd wager.

[Visty]

- no "centered" AC bonus, which is +5 at level 20 as a pure Monk.

wrong

the centered ac bonus follows the same as the wismod to ac, veriefyd (sp?) several times and even confirmed by a dev

[tenketsu2]

The reason I'm inclined to try the idea at all is to try to hybridize the Monk's great survivability (Wis to AC, Saves, Improved Evasion, Immunities, SR, Animal Paths, Healing Amp, Glancing Blow reduction, and eventually DR) with better DPS at the cost of versatility (loss of ki attacks). I realize that a monk splash would probably be a better overall character, but there's still a lot to like about the remaining class features beyond just Wis to AC and Evasion, and I already have a couple alts who only dabble in Monkitude.

Would going from a 19-20/x2 crit profile to a 15-20/x2 (and picking up +2 dam a swing via Elf) or 17-20/x3 crit profile really end up losing (or not gaining much) DPS compared to the 10% alacrity? This is something I'm unsure about, and if anyone has numbers I'd appreciate it.

I did underestimate the flat bonus to AC for monks, so if anyone knows for sure if it works while uncentered that would be a big consideration.

Also, in the latest patch the BAB-speed correlation was apparently toned way down, so that bit I'm willing to forego.

[soubal]

You're aware that BAB is more than just swing speed, yeah? You're aware that being uncentered means more than just not being able to use wind stance?

[Kintro]

Would going from a 19-20/x2 crit profile to a 15-20/x2 (and picking up +2 dam a swing via Elf) or 17-20/x3 crit profile really end up losing (or not gaining much) DPS compared to the 10% alacrity? This is something I'm unsure about, and if anyone has numbers I'd appreciate it.

You're not just losing 10% alacrity:

1) 2d10 TWF vs 2d4 THF
2) Faster Monk unarmed animations (about 10% faster than with Kamas/Tempest)

This should be how the DPS compares using +5 Holy weapons: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=10&maxac=70

Swing speeds might be slightly out since recent changes but don't have time to check right now.

[soubal]

it's not so much a matter of "what would you lose", but more "what would you gain"?

What you gain is AC from your wisdom modifier (and you still can't be wearing armor). You also gain some immunities, and eventually DR10/epic. There's a bunch of ki-fired abilities, but being uncentered, you can't build ki.

A single level of monk is every bit as good as 20 when it comes to AC from your wis (which is utterly insane, but that's another thread). Another level gives you evasion, or one of rogue gives you sneak attack damage. At most, you need 2 levels of monk to gain the utility of a 'non centered' level 20 monk. That leaves a full 18 levels you can be building a full BAB class - Fighter, Paladin or Ranger. (Can't multi monk/barb due to alignment confilcts)

So yeah. You could do it. I don't know why you would, though.

[GlassCannon]

The real kicker is the loss of 10% attack speed, which is basically the only thing that makes monks a better melee than Joe the Wizard.

I think you seem to forget that Monks at later levels hit harder than Greensteels when their damage dice alone are considered, with each attack I might add.

Yes, my Monk 20 hits harder than my Barbarian 20 on those Shroud Portals. Barb 20 uses a Mineral II Greataxe with maxed STR and GTHF, Monk uses +4 holy GCB wraps with GTWF. Both use PA, Both use Madstone. Monk hits for about 8 more damage, it seems, before Secondary damage is considered.


As for the OP question - If you really want to injure your party like that, I'd go with a Heal Amp/AC build(Monk amp 3, Human amp 3, high DEX and WIS), and use Rapiers. Halfling would be higher DPS and unnoticeably higher AC and saves, but potentially lower HP(Toughness) and slightly less survivability as the cost.

[tenketsu2]

As for the OP question - If you really want to injure your party like that, I'd go with a Heal Amp/AC build(Monk amp 3, Human amp 3, high DEX and WIS), and use Rapiers. Halfling would be higher DPS and unnoticeably higher AC and saves, but potentially lower HP(Toughness) and slightly less survivability as the cost.

I went with an elf.

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 8

I already have a high Dex and Wis Monk/Rogue, and while she's fun too, I wanted something different from this guy.