A Solid Warforged Sorcerer Build

[Aspenor]

If they really so desired, the human could drop 4 AP and taken Human Adaptability II in constitution, which should open up the last 2 tiers of Toughness enhancements. I'm not going to spend the time figuring out loot to even the con score, but I'm sure you could acquire +1 exceptional constitution or a larger tome to put you at an even number. That'd result in 547 hit points.

Unfortunately my human is a 28 pt build and won't get quite that high, but that's not really all that big of a deal to me.

Granted that's quite a few AP for hit points, but it is possible.

[smatt]

LOL, there's more frigan ego in this thread than 100 Barry bonds combined........

[Junts]

If they really so desired, the human could drop 4 AP and taken Human Adaptability II in constitution, which should open up the last 2 tiers of Toughness enhancements. I'm not going to spend the time figuring out loot to even the con score, but I'm sure you could acquire +1 exceptional constitution or a larger tome to put you at an even number. That'd result in 547 hit points.

Unfortunately my human is a 28 pt build and won't get quite that high, but that's not really all that big of a deal to me.

Granted that's quite a few AP for hit points, but it is possible.

human adapt con only opens up racial 3, you needa tier 2 toughness (dwarf or wf) for racial 4

I choose not to take racial 3 because I cant afford it .. however, I could hit 520 if I did.


If I did and was a 18/18 build, I'd be at 540.

[Shade]

End Game content where enchantments work better than most other spells on all levels:
A new invasion (19)
Genesis Point (19)
Sins of Attrition (19)
Weapon Shipment (19)
Wrath of Flame (19)
The vast majority of the battlefield slayer area

Not even close to true. Web is superior in all of those quest.
Otto orb (the spell you originally cited) could be a excellent CC spell against devils except for 1 huge problem: Devils can teleport out of it - and if they land on a spot without an orb, they are free, they cannot teleport while webbed.

Then theres the issue of devils having much superior Willsaves and SR vs reflex. For a max Spell pen + enchantment focus build this may not be an issue, for this particular build - and any average sorc, it IS an issue. Almost every pug sorc i've recruited that cast it, all I see is blue fashes and devils teleporting out, it's not nearly as effective as web.

I find Otto's irresitable to the all around superior to the ball as its has a much better duration and even if they teleport as you dance them, they at least stay dancing on the other end for its duration (which's bare minimum is ~8 seconds, far superior to the 2 seconds on the orb)

Just plain fact for anyone who plays a good CC sorc.
I can go into all of those quests, and bastion too and web over 80% of the mobs, even on elite. Infact just did a Elite bastion that was easier then most normal runs, as we had a wiz and sorc casting web - and they got about 95% of mobs webbed, barely any healing was required. The same just cannot be done with ottos orb.

[Aspenor]

Not even close to true. Web is superior in all of those quest.
Otto orb (the spell you originally cited) could be a excellent CC spell against devils except for 1 huge problem: Devils can teleport out of it - and if they land on a spot without an orb, they are free, they cannot teleport while webbed.

Then theres the issue of devils having much superior Willsaves and SR vs reflex. For a max Spell pen + enchantment focus build this may not be an issue, for this particular build - and any average sorc, it IS an issue. Almost every pug sorc i've recruited that cast it, all I see is blue fashes and devils teleporting out, it's not nearly as effective as web.

I find Otto's irresitable to the all around superior to the ball as its has a much better duration and even if they teleport as you dance them, they at least stay dancing on the other end for its duration (which's bare minimum is ~8 seconds, far superior to the 2 seconds on the orb)

Just plain fact for anyone who plays a good CC sorc.
I can go into all of those quests, and bastion too and web over 80% of the mobs, even on elite. Infact just did a Elite bastion that was easier then most normal runs, as we had a wiz and sorc casting web - and they got about 95% of mobs webbed, barely any healing was required. The same just cannot be done with ottos orb.

Unrelated to the strategic differences, Otto's Dancing Sphere creates significant lag for people with lower end machines. Every time I'm in a party where somebody casts it, somebody else says "please do not cast that spell it, it makes me lag."

[bobbryan2]

LOL, there's more frigan ego in this thread than 100 Barry bonds combined........

Well, now it's a sorc thread.

[tinyelvis]

as far as enhancements/etc required for 510 on a human:

16 base con
1x +3 constitution tome
1x Litany of the dead
1x Thamor's ring
1x shroud +2 constitution (can be on ring or sceptre, +2 cha goes on the other of those two)
2x racial toughness enhancements
1x rage
1x yugoloth constitution pot
1x minos legens
1x shroud 45 hp item

that's 507. A wf with 3 more constitution available and up to 2 more racial toughnesses will go higher.

Its funny, I've seen videos you posted of your capped toon. He only seems to run with 410 hps. Also, I think its funny I comment that 18 constitution is probably overkill and the toon you use to refute me is one with 16 constitution. But never mind, the items and enhancements you posted are reasonable for someone focused on hit points.

Lets add things up shall we,
Constitution based additions:
base con +16
constitution tome +3
Litany of the dead +1
Thamor's ring +1
shroud item +2
yugoloth pot +2

Hmm, thats only 25. I think my Drow has more con. Oh wait, you probably forgot the +6 con item. What you really need is a fellow who watches your every post and reports any small mistake no matter how little it relates to your overall theme or post. (I am lucky. Like the Calculus teacher with the smarty pants in the front row always pointing out the fogotten minus sign, I have "MrCow" who scrutinizes everything I write looking for the smallest error or mistype. This really helps to keep me on my toes. Its fortunate for other folk too since often when I quote them "MrCow" will post corrections to my posts even though its others mistakes as though they are mine. He is correct to do this, for I do often neglect to post a disclaimer.) Anyway, I digress.

Lets give you a +6 con item. Now, if I have not made a mistake that is 31 Con and a +10 bonus. You do realize dont you that this is an odd number. You are wasting an item slot and point here. You sure you dont want to go back an edit that hasty post?

Your total bonus then is,
Constitution 10 * 20 = 200
Toughness feat = 22
2 toughness enhancements = 20
minos legens = 20
shroud item = 45
Total bonus = 307

This means (not withstanding a dumb mistake) your base sorcerer hitpoints are 200 points. Wow, the rest of us only get 100 (including the heroic durability). How did you manage to pull off double the base hitpoints? You sure you dont want to go back and edit that post now. Dont shoot the messenger, you didnt really think I would not add up your numbers did you? Look instead of trying to pull the wool over our face, why dont you just tell us what your base hps are, your hps due to feats, and those due to enhancements. Then break em down for us. My guess is you only run with around 400 hps anyway. Oh, and btw, you cant count a buff like rage. LOL, that was a nice move trying to sneak that in. There are many more buffs than just rage....lol. You can gain a whole lot of hitpoints that way, but anyone can regardless of build and/or race. Rage...lol. good one.

Ok, all of the mistakes and missrepresentations aside. A Hafling, or a dwarf or a Drow or WF for that matter could collect the same gear (and most do, myself included). Furthermore, if a sorcerer wanted to reduce his spell casting effectiveness, he could pick up the same feats and enhancements. Or, a caster could elect to reduce his hitpoint by a very small fraction (around 10 or less %) with a smaller base constitution and pick up some other stat. Lets look at some examples.

A Drow could
20 charisma, 12 con, 16 dex (or other stat(s))
He would only have a mere 40 less hitpoints. In exchange, he gets +4 to his dex saves.

A WF could
16 charisma, 12 con, 16 dex (or other stat(s)). Again, +4 bonus to dex saves and skills

40 hitpoints dont mean squat in the end content. Even by your own comments and numbers

orthons to do up to 60-70 a swing

This is mearly equivalent to just 50-60% of a single melee hit. Meanwhile, one reflex save against say a DBF will save you at least this much. Nevermind, the multitude more saves you will make with a +4 better reflex save.

Please note: (especially you MrCow) the views quoted here are not necessarily the view of the author. They are views of others used for demonstration purposes only. Please refer all corrections to the quoted individual. Just kidding Cow, your corrections are welcomed.

[Junts]

Its funny, I've seen videos you posted of your capped toon. He only seems to run with 410 hps. Also, I think its funny I comment that 18 constitution is probably overkill and the toon you use to refute me is one with 16 constitution. But never mind, the items and enhancements you posted are reasonable for someone focused on hit points.

Lets add things up shall we,
Constitution based additions:
base con +16
constitution tome +3
Litany of the dead +1
Thamor's ring +1
shroud item +2
yugoloth pot +2

Hmm, thats only 25. I think my Drow has more con. Oh wait, you probably forgot the +6 con item. What you really need is a fellow who watches your every post and reports any small mistake no matter how little it relates to your overall theme or post. (I am lucky. Like the Calculus teacher with the smarty pants in the front row always pointing out the fogotten minus sign, I have "MrCow" who scrutinizes everything I write looking for the smallest error or mistype. This really helps to keep me on my toes. Its fortunate for other folk too since often when I quote them "MrCow" will post corrections to my posts even though its others mistakes as though they are mine. He is correct to do this, for I do often neglect to post a disclaimer.) Anyway, I digress.

Lets give you a +6 con item. Now, if I have not made a mistake that is 31 Con and a +10 bonus. You do realize dont you that this is an odd number. You are wasting an item slot and point here. You sure you dont want to go back an edit that hasty post?

Your total bonus then is,
Constitution 10 * 20 = 200
Toughness feat = 22
2 toughness enhancements = 20
minos legens = 20
shroud item = 45
Total bonus = 307

This means (not withstanding a dumb mistake) your base sorcerer hitpoints are 200 points. Wow, the rest of us only get 100 (including the heroic durability). How did you manage to pull off double the base hitpoints? You sure you dont want to go back and edit that post now. Dont shoot the messenger, you didnt really think I would not add up your numbers did you? Look instead of trying to pull the wool over our face, why dont you just tell us what your base hps are, your hps due to feats, and those due to enhancements. Then break em down for us. My guess is you only run with around 400 hps anyway. Oh, and btw, you cant count a buff like rage. LOL, that was a nice move trying to sneak that in. There are many more buffs than just rage....lol. You can gain a whole lot of hitpoints that way, but anyone can regardless of build and/or race. Rage...lol. good one.

Ok, all of the mistakes and missrepresentations aside. A Hafling, or a dwarf or a Drow or WF for that matter could collect the same gear (and most do, myself included). Furthermore, if a sorcerer wanted to reduce his spell casting effectiveness, he could pick up the same feats and enhancements. Or, a caster could elect to reduce his hitpoint by a very small fraction (around 10 or less %) with a smaller base constitution and pick up some other stat. Lets look at some examples.

A Drow could
20 charisma, 12 con, 16 dex (or other stat(s))
He would only have a mere 40 less hitpoints. In exchange, he gets +4 to his dex saves.

A WF could
16 charisma, 12 con, 16 dex (or other stat(s)). Again, +4 bonus to dex saves and skills

40 hitpoints dont mean squat in the end content. Even by your own comments and numbers

This is mearly equivalent to just 50-60% of a single melee hit. Meanwhile, one reflex save against say a DBF will save you at least this much. Nevermind, the multitude more saves you will make with a +4 better reflex save.

Please note: (especially you MrCow) the views quoted here are not necessarily the view of the author. They are views of others used for demonstration purposes only. Please refer all corrections to the quoted individual. Just kidding Cow, your corrections are welcomed.

407 standing hp
20 rage
40 yugoloth pot

+40 more from additional brackets

I do not always choose to burn 1000 platinum for appearances in an easy quest and/or demonstration, like the firewall movie.


You asked for significant loot, so I listed that .. I didn't include con, gfl, or any other equipment slots that I assume every character has.


Rage and other long-duration con buffs are a reliable source of hp becuase they are restorable .. adding bonus hp ala aid or greater heroism does not allow you to later re-heal to that total .. rage does, and hence it's worth including in any sum.


You also left out human adapt con, which is why the number's not odd. 32 con, 34 raged.

[tinyelvis]

Not even close to true. Web is superior in all of those quest.
Otto orb (the spell you originally cited) could be a excellent CC spell against devils except for 1 huge problem: Devils can teleport out of it - and if they land on a spot without an orb, they are free, they cannot teleport while webbed.

If you fight in the orb devils will stay in orb, and once nabbed evil outsiders almost never teleport out. It is more likely that they will make a strength save in your web than bug out of a dancing ball. However, again, web is great. I carry and use it.

Then theres the issue of devils having much superior Willsaves and SR vs reflex. For a max Spell pen + enchantment focus build this may not be an issue, for this particular build - and any average sorc, it IS an issue. Almost every pug sorc i've recruited that cast it, all I see is blue fashes and devils teleporting out, it's not nearly as effective as web.

This is a good point and is why I added that to my statement.

I find Otto's irresitable to the all around superior to the ball as its has a much better duration and even if they teleport as you dance them, they at least stay dancing on the other end for its duration (which's bare minimum is ~8 seconds, far superior to the 2 seconds on the orb)

I use both all of the time. Sometimes its superior, sometimes not. In fact, I was using Otto's day one when the typical caster was gripping about casters being dead.

Just plain fact for anyone who plays a good CC sorc.
I can go into all of those quests, and bastion too and web over 80% of the mobs, even on elite. Infact just did a Elite bastion that was easier then most normal runs, as we had a wiz and sorc casting web - and they got about 95% of mobs webbed, barely any healing was required. The same just cannot be done with ottos orb.

It would be useful to know what the reflex and strength saves are in this quest on normal hard and elite. People can toss anecdotal comments all day, but a few numbers easily clears up the discussion.

[Aspenor]

Yugoloth potions give +4 con?

FWIW, my calculations on a sorcerer with 30 con are coming to exactly 487 hit points, and I could be missing something that'd make up for the extra 20.

Base 80
Heroic Durability 20
CON bonus 200
GFL 30
SHroud 45
Toughness 22
Enhancements 20
Minos 20
Draconic 10
Rage 20
Yugoloth 20
= 487

Second edit: well, with a +4 tome, having 31 CON, he'd have 507. Found it.

[SimVerg]

Yugoloth pots give +2 con and +20hp.

[Aspenor]

Yugoloth pots give +2 con and +20hp.

yeah, i figured out that was a typo. I found the hit points that were missing, though.

[tinyelvis]

407 standing hp
20 rage
40 yugoloth pot

+40 more from additional brackets

I do not always choose to burn 1000 platinum for appearances in an easy quest and/or demonstration, like the firewall movie.


You asked for significant loot, so I listed that .. I didn't include con, gfl, or any other equipment slots that I assume every character has.


Rage and other long-duration con buffs are a reliable source of hp becuase they are restorable .. adding bonus hp ala aid or greater heroism does not allow you to later re-heal to that total .. rage does, and hence it's worth including in any sum.

Yes, that's more like it. The firewall movie was good. More movies like that would help new players (and old). Other good buffs are GH and heros feast for fear immunity. Plus I often employ false life wands and wouldnt fault someone for taking and casting the spell. All these aside, I choose to (in addition to other things) forego the 40 extra hitpoints in favor of +4 reflex save. Nothing you or any other knowledgable person has said has even come close to convincing me otherwise ( Not that you guys are dumb, but I have had this conversation with extremely smart people who bring up better counter points and still remain unconvinced).

It may work for you and your playstyle, but not mine. I can solo the sully like endboss in new invasion (even when the rest of the party is dead). I can and do kite the shadow devils and could pathetically easily hand Saully in the last fight. With my WF, I run portals and kill beholders in hound. I charm or kite all mobs in enter kobold and help finish off boss if necessary all at same time. I handle all of the bats in VOD and can deal with any devils if needed plus nuke the **** out of boss at end. I shave lots of damage off of Harry enabling more easily 1 round part IVs in shroud and routinely solo Sorjek for the party. I do all of these things with around 300 hitpoints. I could do them with 200.

[Aspenor]

Yes, that's more like it. The firewall movie was good. More movies like that would help new players (and old). Other good buffs are GH and heros feast for fear immunity. Plus I often employ false life wands and wouldnt fault someone for taking and casting the spell. All these aside, I choose to (in addition to other things) forego the 40 extra hitpoints in favor of +4 reflex save. Nothing you or any other knowledgable person has said has even come close to convincing me otherwise ( Not that you guys are dumb, but I have had this conversation with extremely smart people who bring up better counter points and still remain unconvinced).

It may work for you and your playstyle, but not mine. I can solo the sully like endboss in new invasion (even when the rest of the party is dead). I can and do kite the shadow devils and could pathetically easily hand Saully in the last fight. With my WF, I run portals and kill beholders in hound. I charm or kite all mobs in enter kobold and help finish off boss if necessary all at same time. I handle all of the bats in VOD and can deal with any devils if needed plus nuke the **** out of boss at end. I shave lots of damage off of Harry enabling more easily 1 round part IVs in shroud and routinely solo Sorjek for the party. I do all of these things with around 300 hitpoints. I could do them with 200.

That's your choice, but we can do all of those things with 200 more hit points. Isn't this game great?

[tinyelvis]

That's your choice, but we can do all of those things with 200 more hit points. Isn't this game great?

Thats great, whatever it takes for you to get the job done. You do things your way, others will do things a different way. Please stop implying that that build is somehow superior to other builds.

[Aspenor]

Thats great, whatever it takes for you to get the job done. You do things your way, others will do things a different way. Please stop implying that that build is somehow superior to other builds.

I will as soon as you stop implying yours is superior.

[SimVerg]

yeah, i figured out that was a typo. I found the hit points that were missing, though.

No, you're not understanding. As two separate but stacking effects, the Yugoloth con pots give: +2 con and +20hp.

[Aspenor]

No, you're not understanding. As two separate but stacking effects, the Yugoloth con pots give: +2 con and +20hp.

Ahh gotcha. I had not tried drinking one of the CON potions, only strength so far (since the only character with the pots so far can easily sacrifice the 5 will save for 2 more strength).

Do the con potions have any negative side effects? (would test it now but I am currently unable to connect to the game)

[Junts]

Ahh gotcha. I had not tried drinking one of the CON potions, only strength so far (since the only character with the pots so far can easily sacrifice the 5 will save for 2 more strength).

Do the con potions have any negative side effects? (would test it now but I am currently unable to connect to the game)

we've tested a lot and have not found it, though we assume there is one.

the save loss is only 4

each potion should have one non-stat benefit and one penalty, but we don't know them all yet

wis is 4 natural armor, 2 wisdom, -4 reflex
int is regen 1 sp/tick, 2 int, -50% fort
con is 20 hp, 2 con, -???
str is ???, 2 strength, -4 will
dex is ???, 2 dex, -2 hit
cha is ???, 2 cha, -4 fort

[mediocresurgeon]

Well, I've been thinking about it. To everyone who pointed out that Blur should be swapped for Web, I now agree with you. There is really no point in keeping Blur around if I have Displace and Sleet Storm at my disposal. I believe I have been very clear that Web is by no means the universal solution to crowd control, it does have its uses.

Updated.

As for Heighten vs other feats:
If I were to swap a feat for Heighten, it would almost certainly be for Spell Penetration II, not Force of Personality. As noted in the initial description of this build, I pointed out that it must be able to solo Cursed Crypt with ease. Without Force of Personality, this drops the build's Will save to dangerous levels in the final fight, where Greater Command is the biggest killer. Keep in mind (at least with the current equipment loaded) that a +10 base save, -2 ability, and +3 from Nightshield just isn't going to cut it (that gives a qualitative 50-50 failure rate) when facing the vampire and the Silver Flame clerics. You cannot dodge Cometfall while Commanded!

If anyone feels that they have a more effective equipment setup (bearing in mind the playstyle I outlined) I would be thrilled to see it. (I'm not one of those people who believes that they have nothing to learn because they have played the game for 3+ years.) Thank you to those who have taken the time to respond with constructive criticism and an open mind.

2cp:
I used to run Otto's Dancing Sphere as a "must-have" spell on my casters, but have given it up. There are too many monsters that have blanket immunities to make it worthwhile anymore. I will often take Symbol of Stunning as a substitute for Otto's Dancing Sphere because it is the same spell level and lands against more monsters.