Kensai/Rogue 18/2 a good idea?

[arris138]

I haven't seen many rogue/fighter WF builds, so wondering if it's a good idea. I'm thinking stats as a fighter, go maybe 12 dex (starting with adm body and swapping it out later), but starting out with 2 levels of rogue for UMD, evasion, and sneak attack. Can I still get a good THF kensai build with only 18 levels? I'm fairly new to the game, so what would I be missing out on with those last 2 levels in exchange for the rogue levels?

[Dylos_Moon]

with 12 dex and adamantine plating, why bother, you cannot evade in adamantine (its considered heavy armor), and you're not going to have a very high reflex save with only 12 dex.

[arris138]

Aah, forgot about it being heavy armor. I was originally thinking only one level of rogue anyway, and good point about the low reflex save as well. Is getting the initial boost to UMD worth picking up the rogue level for? The sneak attack is nice, but I see it as more of a bonus than a primary reason to choose.

[Aeneas]

You would need to decide if the UMD boost and 1 backstab die is worth missing out on your level 20 combat feat and 10% stacking attack speed boost for the fighter capstone as well as missing BAB 20.

[arris138]

That seems to be the real question then...

Level 20 ability - +10% attack speed vs UMD for repair wands etc.

I'd say the +1BAB is about a tie for the sneak attack die.

Since i'm usually a solo/small group player, I'm leaning towards the UMD, but i'm definitely interested in arguements otherwise.

[Reverand]

That seems to be the real question then...

Level 20 ability - +10% attack speed vs UMD for repair wands etc.

I'd say the +1BAB is about a tie for the sneak attack die.

Since i'm usually a solo/small group player, I'm leaning towards the UMD, but i'm definitely interested in arguements otherwise.

They do sell repair pots. Not quite as cost effective as wands, but ....

They do NOT sell Capstone pots.

If self repair is the only reason you want UMD, Why not go a level of Sorc or Wiz... for free wand useage. and a light repair/jump/tumble. But really thats the same problem of one level of anything. BaB 20, and capstone

[Therigar]

If your DEX is high enough so that your reflex save is decent then evasion is worthwhile. If not then it isn't. Pretty simple actually.

Fighter is one class that has a good capstone. Staying pure class offers real benefits.

Warforged can reach really good AC with monk (rather than rogue) for a 2 level splash. Monk also provides evasion and drags in 2 more feats. But, this means not only DEX but also WIS -- in most cases this isn't as valuable as STR and CON to a fighter.

Ultimately you could make such a choice if you were willing to sacrifice some damage and HP. For example, you could give up 2 points of damage per attack (and another 2 to 6 points per critical) by starting with STR 14 instead of STR 18. You could also give up 1 HP per level by starting with CON 16 instead of CON 18. If you did that you could start with 14 DEX and 14 WIS reaching ~24 in both with items and tomes. That would be +14 (+7 from each) to AC.

Because docents do not impact monk WIS bonus to AC you can use composite plate, get a +5 docent that improves the composite plate, run the alchemical ritual, toss in dodge feats and items, deflection bonuses and insight bonuses -- and you can end up with standing AC ~55. Party buffs, barkskin, etc will raise that to ~70.

And, that is on a 28 point build. With 32 points you could have more STR or CON (18 STR and 20 CON at creation if going pure fighter).

The real question is -- is it worth it? It is gear intensive (chaosgarde, chattering ring, dragontouched docent, shroud mineral II weapon), even with items your reflex save is only going to be ~14 (generally <20 in any case) and it gives up a good capstone.

[Tin_Dragon]

I doing a 2rog/ftr build currently, dwarf though, going for TWF, kensai, evader, intimi build. So far, so good.

[Alavatar]

Don't forget that at BAB20 you get another increase to your base attack speed, besides the Capstone enhancement.

[Lusty]

I don't agree that evasion is worthless in the 18 fighter / 2 rogue WF UMD build with a 12 starting dex. You will need to take mithral body for it to work. Gear will be crucial. You may find that you will need to specifically gear up for times when you really want a decent reflex save - but you can make it work. Hell with 500+ hitpoints you don't really need an always on reflex save anyway. To beable to get one is just an extra slice of tasty bacon...

beholder reflex save at 20
10 [base with dex 12 (+3 rogue levels | + 9 fighter levels | +1 dex)]
5 [+5 resistance item (greensteel or dragontouched)]
1 [+2 dex tome]
3 [+6 dex item]
2 [+2 luck bonus (head of good fortune)]
1 [alchemical ritual]
2 [greater parrying weapon]
3 [exceptional dex (greensteel or dragontouched)]

self buffed reflex save at 20
27 [beholder]
4 [greater heroism]
1 [haste dodge bonus]

bard buffed reflex save at 20
32 [self buffed]
4 [inspire heroics / moral]

36 [bard buffed]

[Aeneas]

The importance of evasion and UMD both are lessened with every mod as new spells and clickies of those spells are added. Additionally new raid loot often softens the impact of no evasion or UMD on a build.

To cite some examples of situations where UMD can be substituted adequately:

Heal scroll/reconstruct scroll ----> Silver flame pot
greater heroism scroll ----> planar gird or purple dragon knight necklace
Flame shield scroll -----> bluefire necklace, bracers of the glacier, firestorm greaves
raise dead -----> ring of the ancestors or green steel triple pos item
stoneskin ----> min II greensteel weapon clicky
teleport scroll ----> royal guard mask


There are various others to support this idea, but the ones i listed are a good start and they address the reasons that many people consider UMD and evasion necessary to a successful build - namely healing, protection, and defense against massive fire damage in certain encounters. There are very few situations where a build that would not have access to evasion would not be able to compensate with inherent class qualities such as dr/, high hp's, or access to many of the UMDable spells i just listed.


On this build in particular missing out on a higher BAB, a faster attack speed from BAB 20, the level 20 combat feat, and the fighter capstone speed increase would probably be a mistake if you can afford to find the means to compensate.

[Therigar]

beholder reflex save at 20
10 [base with dex 12 (+3 rogue levels | + 9 fighter levels | +1 dex)]
5 [+5 resistance item (greensteel or dragontouched)]
1 [+2 dex tome]
3 [+6 dex item]
2 [+2 luck bonus (head of good fortune)]
1 [alchemical ritual]
2 [greater parrying weapon]
3 [exceptional dex (greensteel or dragontouched)]

self buffed reflex save at 20
27 [beholder]
4 [greater heroism]
1 [haste dodge bonus]

bard buffed reflex save at 20
32 [self buffed]
4 [inspire heroics / moral]

36 [bard buffed]

I'm not positive on your math but it assumes a lot of things being in place to hit that 36. The ones I'd question are the +6 DEX item, +3 exceptional DEX skills bonus, +2 greater parrying weapon and +2 luck bonus. It seems likely that if you are in a situation where you want to make reflex saves that you probably don't want to be giving up the slots where these items would be located in order to get this additional +13 to your saves.

And, at L20 a base bonus (with buffs) of 23 may not actually result in many saves whatsoever. A person might be better off going for the capstone and other perks of remaining pure fighter. Needing to KNOW when to equip the items so that they are ready for the evasion save may not be the best option.