Add Ambush as an explicit trap category

[Angelus_dead]

Well, ambushes are not traps except colloquially. An ambush is a lying-in-wait surprise attack usually at an advantageous location, whereas a trap is a mechanical or magical device

That's contrary to the English language, but I suppose you're using definitions from a game rulebook.

The same set of skills cannot really be directly applied to the two

By the D&D rules, there is no Spot check for traps. The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding.

[Khellendros13]

Very good idea... I would love to see this included.

[Bardolier]

This is a great idea. While I appreciate the "gotcha" moment of a gate crashing down, I'd rather see players empowered to use more skills and using more diversified tactics, like scouting forward.

[whysper]

That's contrary to the English language, but I suppose you're using definitions from a game rulebook.

I would argue that an ambush is a trap only in a metaphorical sense in dictionary definitions, too, but that is neither here nor there I wanted to convey that there is a difference between the two concepts.

By the D&D rules, there is no Spot check for traps. The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding.

True, although a very common house rule uses Spot to visually detect anything that is out of the ordinary (as there is no other applicable skill.) An Int check is the alternative, or combinatory.

And DDO already uses Spot for traps, hidden doors and a precious few other things.

[whysper]

I think that the line of thought that a rogue or any dwarf (per 3.5 rules) would be able to detect the presence of an operable, if mildly hidden, portcullis should be applied here. It is not a trap, but a reasonable spot skill should reveal the scratch marks made on the walls, ceiling and floor by the rising and falling portcullis. I think that a successful spot should prompt a character with a warning of the sort proposed by others.

Ah, see, here is where I thought the Int check would be appropriate - not only is there the evidence, but you must make the conclusion as well. The warning on success could be "this portcullis seems to be remotely operated. If you go further, you might get locked in!"

[Combak]

Seems to me there are at least two skills that can come into play here. Not really any need to add anything new skill wise. Just use the ones we already have. As I understand it now checks for the following are not even made around a ambush.

Spot, "You think saw movment ahead", "You notice the walls look like a door/gate has been used here", on crit successs "You see XXmob trying to hide ahead of you", You see where a door/gate can be dropped to block this hallway"

Listen, "You think you hear movement ahead", "You think you hear feet shuffling" On a crit, "You hear (whatever) ahead and to your right/left"

I am sure there are others.

later

[Borror0]

I would argue that an ambush is a trap only in a metaphorical sense in dictionary definitions, too, but that is neither here nor there

As Angelus_dead pointed out, ambushes are traps according to the English language. Thesaurus.com even lists them as synonyms.

[moorewr]

In addition to A_D's excellent idea, I would also like these timered doors to only shut if the ambushers actually detect a player.

Thus a rogue could sneak up, pass the spot check to notice the ambush (and see the shadows of monsters he/she can spot), and withdraw to inform others of the ambush.

I'd also like these timered doors to have trap boxes, but as A_D says this will have more impact on the flow of existing quests.

[Falco_Easts]

/signed and +1

[whysper]

As Angelus_dead pointed out, ambushes are traps according to the English language. Thesaurus.com even lists them as synonyms.

Yeah, it also lists "waiting" as a synonym for "ambush", for what that is worth. And Merriam-Webster disagrees on the original definition.

Semantics aside, are either of you actually claiming that a lying-in-wait ambush and a mechanical/magical device should not be considered two different concepts?

[Borror0]

Semantics aside, are either of you actually claiming that a lying-in-wait ambush and a mechanical/magical device should not be considered two different concepts?

If you mean to ask if I think that they are entirely different concepts with absolutely no commonality, then the answer is no. Both share the same intent and general mechanism: gaining an unfair advantage against an unprepared opponent. Thus, they can be put in the same box for certain discussions.

It's because of that shared commonality that Spot is a good mechanics to combat both: if you are aware of the existence of the trap or ambush, it loses its effectiveness.

[Angelus_dead]

In addition to A_D's excellent idea, I would also like these timered doors to only shut if the ambushers actually detect a player.

That would need more developer attention, as it can become problematic, such as if the rogue sneaks right past and then other players get trapped behind him. That means that yet again the party is being forcibly kept apart for a combat, which is what the suggestion was to avoid. That's why I made a suggestion that only had a minor gameplay change: giving you information that you could've found on the web anyhow.

Note that the good reason to have locked-room ambushes is to create a different kind of combat challenge, where pulling, kiting, and retreating aren't options, and you've got to stand fast and win. It's repetitive if the players always have the initiative and are attacking room after room of monsters at their own pace. But the pitfall that should be minimized is the possibility that some of the players will be accidently left out of the encounter, both preventing them from active gameplay and endangering their allies. That's usually an excessive punishment for being just mildly spread out.

[moorewr]

Yeah, it also lists "waiting" as a synonym for "ambush", for what that is worth. And Merriam-Webster disagrees on the original definition.

Semantics aside, are either of you actually claiming that a lying-in-wait ambush and a mechanical/magical device should not be considered two different concepts?

Both are similar from the standpoint of a rogue or scout - they are traps (in the general sense), and the scout can spot signs of on one hand the trap mechanism, and on the other the telltales of enemies waiting in ambush.

More specifically, however, a door rigged to shut to trap or divide a party is exactly like other traps in the game. There must be a trigger - pressure plate, magical sensor - or a mob waiting to operate the mechanism, just like any other trap.

[Fenrisulven6]

duh.. I shoulda thought of this

Excellent idea OP

/signed

[Tharris]

/signed.

So A sort of Dungeon Alert in reverse maybe.......If you spot em, Mobs are easier than if not spotted by a scout.

[404error]

Most of these situations have dm text for them, they are activated by having x number of skill points for (instert relevant skill here).

[moorewr]

Most of these situations have dm text for them, they are activated by having x number of skill points for (instert relevant skill here).

It would be interesting to talk specifics here - what skill at what rank..

Is this true for, for example, the spring-loaded doors in Delera 1? The doors in Walk the Butcher's path? Just to point to two cases you'll encounter in the low levels.

EDIT: the ambush in butcher's path (which is a section of hallway near the shrine) I think does have a spot warning, now that I think about it.

[kamimitsu]

You got my vote. Great idea!

[Angelus_dead]

Most of these situations have dm text for them, they are activated by having x number of skill points for (instert relevant skill here).

You're referring to a specific conditional inserted by the quest designer, while I'm talking about a generic "Ambush" and "Locking Door" warning icon. It takes more development effort to write a line of dialog and have the narrator recite it and bring that asset all through the workflow.

I mentioned several quests containing this kind of thing, and I think most of them don't have any notification. Note that a message after the ambush triggers doesn't count as a warning. I haven't retested all of these recently, but I did play them on rogues:

Taming the Flames: Come into a room, doors shut around you, mephits and elementals are killed to get out. No warning.
Delera's Tomb: Come into a room, portcullis shuts behind you, undeads are killed to get out. No warning.
VON5: Come into a room, door shuts behind you, warforged are killed to get out. No warning.
Twilight Forge: Talk to the final NPC, he aggros and attacks, doors shut behind you, never opens again. No warning.
Wizard King upper chambers: Kill the miniboss, the floor falls out and door shuts behind you, never opens again. No warning.
Wizard King central/lower chambers: Go into a room, doors seal in front and behind you, undeads and/or golems are killed to open them. No warning.
Black Mausoleum: Open a chest, floor falls down, forcefield seals behind, pull a lever and wait 5 minutes to open it.
Ritual Sacrifice: Step into a hallway segment, forcefields seal in front and behind, elementals are killed to open them. No warning.

It is true that several of those have warnings after the ambush happens. Looking at Ritual Sacrifice as a specific example, it has DM text both for when the monsters appear and when you defeat them. "Another ambush! You must be getting close". But what I am looking for is a way to know there was something there before it happens.

Presently the most common occurrence is that one player who has done the quest before warns everyone else about it, and they're prepared for the trigger that way. I'm hoping for something that'll equalize that gameplay experience with groups who haven't done the quest before. A locked room ambush can be much more dangerous if you stumble into it as an actual surprise, meaning that it's hard to balance the encounter to be challenging both to parties with and without knowledge that the attack is coming.

EDIT: the ambush in butcher's path (which is a section of hallway near the shrine) I think does have a spot warning, now that I think about it.

Indeed, that's why I omitted it from the list in the first post.

[Visty]

Wizard King central/lower chambers: Go into a room, doors seal in front and behind you, undeads and/or golems are killed to open them. No warning.

that is wrong, those rooms with 2 golems and 1-2 mummys are timed, you can sit them out