Add Ambush as an explicit trap category

[Angelus_dead]

Many new players are trying DDO right now, and among their first guides to gameplay are the character creation descriptions. Those descriptions say that Rogues and Rangers can function as scouts for the rest of the party. So what happens? The player is sneaking along happily scouting, occasionally struggling with the party to be patient and let him do it, when he touches a scripted trigger, a door closes behind him, and 15 monsters jump out to eat him while the rest of the group watches (and laughs).

It's almost as if the quest designer wanted to explicitly punish players for trying to scout, and instead reward running together in a tight mob. Some of the quests involving this feature are Taming the Flames, Delera's Tomb, VON5, Wizard-king, Black Mausoleum, and Ritual Sacrifice. Note that those ambushes/lockouts can only be a surprise once, and if any party member has been there before he can warn everyone else. It would be nice if new players had an in-game way to obtain that kind of forknowledge.

Following is a suggestion to improve that situation, although I think it could easily be too much work for the benefit.

New Feature
Add an "ambush marker" map feature to be explicitly added by dungeon designers. When a character whose Spot reaches a set threshold approaches the area, she gets an onscreen warning icon with the message: "You sense that enemies await nearby" or "You feel it would be risky to proceed alone". (The latter message is suppressed if the rest of the party is already nearby)

As an optional embellishment, using the Search skill and passing a set threshold causes visible indications of the approximate positions of the trigger line, gates / forcefields, and monster spawns. It might also mention the monster category (warforged, elf, elemental, etc) in onscreen text.

Complex Option
Optionally, the required Spot threshold could be higher if the character is not in sneak mode or has Hide / Move Silently skills insufficient compared to the Spot / Listen of the corresponding monsters. This would simulate that the enemies hide more carefully if they detect someone coming, and would make stealthy scouting relatively more valuable.

[Visty]

though ambushs arent traps
also most ambushed the way you described can be sit out as the doors are timed, so you wont get hurt if your hide and MS is high enough

[Lorien_the_First_One]

The OP is correct, doors that slam shut should be detectable by rogues, just like ones that spew fire.

[Spartus]

The OP is correct, doors that slam shut should be detectable by rogues, just like ones that spew fire.

Detectable AND disable-able . . . er . . . able to be disabled . . . uh . . . sufficiently skilled rogues should also be able to prevent them from slamming shut at all.

[Angelus_dead]

sufficiently skilled rogues should also be able to prevent them from slamming shut at all.

You could also say that a sufficiently good rogue can pick a lock. But for gameplay purposes, DDO designers have to set many doors so that they can only be opened with the matching key.

By the same token, they can't allow rogues to disable these kinds of portcullises. But at least they can allow the rogue's skills to provide him with the same warning that a previous run of the quest would have provided.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You could also say that a sufficiently good rogue can pick a lock. But for gameplay purposes, DDO designers have to set many doors so that they can only be opened with the matching key.

By the same token, they can't allow rogues to disable these kinds of portcullises. But at least they can allow the rogue's skills to provide him with the same warning that a previous run of the quest would have provided.

A reasonable compromise

[Angelus_dead]

also most ambushed the way you described can be sit out as the doors are timed, so you wont get hurt if your hide and MS is high enough

You might be able to sit it out, but locking the the whole party out of progressing for 5 minutes because you tried to scout ahead isn't a rewarding gameplay result.

Also note that there's two kinds of situations that this can apply to, ambushes and lockouts, and a particular place could be either or both. Also, the lockout could be permanent, temporary, or linked to defeat. The trigger might be crossing a boundary or interacting with an object/NPC. Different messages could be used to inform the player of most of those factors.

I'll apply those categories to some of the examples:

Ritual Sacrifice: boundary, ambush, opens on defeat or timer
Gwylan's Stand: boundary or interactable, ambush
Wizard King: lower chambers are boundary, opens on defeat or maybe timer. Upper chambers are boundary that never re-opens, but you can regroup by another path.
VON5: Many chambers are boundary, opens by defeat or maybe timer. Final chamber is NPC interaction with ambush + lockout, and there is no getting in there by alternate paths.
Black Mausoleum: Triggered by interactable (chest), opens on 5-minute timer which must be started by another interactable. Also an unsurmountable lockout at the dragon riddle.

[whysper]

Certainly a worthwhile idea, and piggybacking on the existing Spot alert mechanism is a reasonably simple way to implement it. In reality - by which I mean the in-game 'reality' - I think a more appropriate mechanism would be a fairly low threshold Spot combined with a relatively higher Int check. Naturally, it would enhance the internal logic to give bonuses to the base rolls for, say, Combat Expertise or Dungeoneering (if it existed in DDO) and obviously a flat -2 to all Wizards, it is bad enough that they all somehow have a great Constitution despite always sitting nose in book, they definitely do not need to be dungeon-savvy

Edit: It is two ideas really, I suppose: one to detect rigged doors/floors etc. (already implemented, essentially), and another to actually get a warning on ambushes (i.e. location looks good for one or something). It would be nice for the former to require a - fairly low - Search check to confirm, but that would necessitate "false positive" Spot checks (on low rolls?), which would be a great addition anyway...detecting an ambush should be a Spot + Int check.

[Draccus]

I like it...a lot.

It could be made even simpler. Instead of tying it to a spawn trigger, tie it to the closing door.

"You noticed that this door has been rigged to close remotely."

That would be useful information for BOTH a scouting rogue and a full party that's not scouting. Even parties that are sticking together sometimes get separated in Delaras, Kobold, or Ritual Sacrifice. The rogue (or any character with Spot) could prevent this by alerting his party that the door's going to close. They can then bunch up and move through.

[Spartus]

You could also say that a sufficiently good rogue can pick a lock. But for gameplay purposes, DDO designers have to set many doors so that they can only be opened with the matching key.

By the same token, they can't allow rogues to disable these kinds of portcullises.

I think the second paragraph is only true for certain quests, and highly debatable for others. But it's not worth derailing the thread over, so back to the point of the OP . . .

But at least they can allow the rogue's skills to provide him with the same warning that a previous run of the quest would have provided.

I totally agree. At least give us a warning before it's too late if our character has a sufficiently high skill.

[Geelario]

/signed

[Xeroth]

I like the idea. I am a new player having just started DDO in June and my group does not have a three year 10 characters each mental catalog of the quest lines in DDO. We are loving the exploration and the surprises! I do think however that having a party doing a classic dungeon crawl with a conventional old school marching order does seem to punish the scouts a little bit. We have adapted the stratagey of "lets all go through this archway on 3" means of exploring adventures we have not been on before. I would prefer a more realistic and useful role for our two scouts.

[DSC]

Excellent idea. Currently if you don't know the quest the sensible thing is to never let the scout get into a separate room, which often defeats the idea of "scouting".

[Thrudh]

Many new players are trying DDO right now, and among their first guides to gameplay are the character creation descriptions. Those descriptions say that Rogues and Rangers can function as scouts for the rest of the party. So what happens? The player is sneaking along happily scouting, occasionally struggling with the party to be patient and let him do it, when he touches a scripted trigger, a door closes behind him, and 15 monsters jump out to eat him while the rest of the group watches (and laughs).

It's almost as if the quest designer wanted to explicitly punish players for trying to scout, and instead reward running together in a tight mob. Some of the quests involving this feature are Taming the Flames, Delera's Tomb, VON5, Wizard-king, Black Mausoleum, and Ritual Sacrifice. Note that those ambushes/lockouts can only be a surprise once, and if any party member has been there before he can warn everyone else. It would be nice if new players had an in-game way to obtain that kind of forknowledge.

Following is a suggestion to improve that situation, although I think it could easily be too much work for the benefit.

New Feature
Add an "ambush marker" map feature to be explicitly added by dungeon designers. When a character whose Spot reaches a set threshold approaches the area, she gets an onscreen warning icon with the message: "You sense that enemies await nearby" or "You feel it would be risky to proceed alone". (The latter message is suppressed if the rest of the party is already nearby)

As an optional embellishment, using the Search skill and passing a set threshold causes visible indications of the approximate positions of the trigger line, gates / forcefields, and monster spawns. It might also mention the monster category (warforged, elf, elemental, etc) in onscreen text.

Complex Option
Optionally, the required Spot threshold could be higher if the character is not in sneak mode or has Hide / Move Silently skills insufficient compared to the Spot / Listen of the corresponding monsters. This would simulate that the enemies hide more carefully if they detect someone coming, and would make stealthy scouting relatively more valuable.

Excellent suggestion. +1 rep. Ambushes that can be detected with a high spot skill... I like it VERY much!

[ogboot]

sounds like a great idea, and makes sense that you would be able to spot the evidence of a laid out ambush. it doesn't even need to be an obvious spot check, just something that makes you go "hmmm.... i might need to wait, or at least talk to the party about this".

[Pwesiela]

As a scout, I

/agree

[salmag]

Since ambushes ARE traps, this idea makes a lot of sense. A high Spot (and Listen, maybe) skill check should be done. The warning should be appropriate, however...

ummm but how does that fit in with the devs preferred style of play, i.e. zerg from one room/battle to the next?

[whysper]

Well, ambushes are not traps except colloquially. An ambush is a lying-in-wait surprise attack usually at an advantageous location, whereas a trap is a mechanical or magical device. The same set of skills cannot really be directly applied to the two, which is why I think an additional Int check - or a class check, Rangers outdoors, maybe Rogues and Fighters indoors - should be required for noticing ambush locations.

A door rigged to close, on the other hand, is a tangible trap.

[ZeroTakenaka]

Zero approves of this idea.

/signed

[Geelario]

Well, ambushes are not traps except colloquially. An ambush is a lying-in-wait surprise attack usually at an advantageous location, whereas a trap is a mechanical or magical device. The same set of skills cannot really be directly applied to the two, which is why I think an additional Int check - or a class check, Rangers outdoors, maybe Rogues and Fighters indoors - should be required for noticing ambush locations.

A door rigged to close, on the other hand, is a tangible trap.

Following on this bit, I bring forward for discussion the Gnashtooth Bloodletter's Room:

This room in Part II of the Lost Seekers Quest (commonly known as Waterworks), has a door that closes behind folks, but it is very important to note that the door is NOT a mechanical trap with an automatic mechanism and trigger. It is manually operated by one of the numerous kobolds standing around (NOT attempting an ambush) in the room. It does seem to be a trapped when you are new to the quest, but that's beside the point.

I think that the line of thought that a rogue or any dwarf (per 3.5 rules) would be able to detect the presence of an operable, if mildly hidden, portcullis should be applied here. It is not a trap, but a reasonable spot skill should reveal the scratch marks made on the walls, ceiling and floor by the rising and falling portcullis. I think that a successful spot should prompt a character with a warning of the sort proposed by others. For example:

"You noticed that this door has been rigged to close remotely."

So, let's see this sort of improvement soon, eh?