Warder

[Pwesiela]

So I'm contemplating making a warder to go along with Aes Sedai (my sorc) and came up with the following:

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Warder 
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 8 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 416
Spell Points: 58 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 11
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    26
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         15                    17
Intelligence         14                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                    11.5
Bluff                 2                     4
Concentration         2                     6
Diplomacy             2                     2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                4                     4
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  0                     0
Intimidate            4                    28
Jump                  5                    24
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         0                     0
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     2
Search                2                     2
Spot                  1                    10.5
Swim                  3                    12
Tumble                n/a                   4
Use Magic Device      n/a                   n/a

Notable Equipment
Belt: Belt of Brute Strength

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I


Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Greatsword Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I


Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Greatsword Specialization I


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Kensei Greatsword Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III

I'm wondering if there are any builders out there that are familiar with the concept of a warder and would like any suggestions/advice/alternative builds that might make the cut.

Requirements:

Human male, 32 point build
Fear immunity
Excellent combat ability
Uses a sword (thf is most likely, since I know of no warders who used a shield on regular occasion. Very few that I know of are twf, and falchion or greatsword would work just as well)
Good spot
Adds benefits to casters
Able to get most mobs off of casters (intim)
Extra abilities against evil creatures

Note: This is without items, gear, etc. and minimal tomes.

[Thanimal]

Firstly, thanks for making your build goals so clear! It's like you read my "how to get better advice" thread before I even published it!

I am only tangetially familiar with Aes Sedai and Warders, so I apologize in advance if I go completely off the rails, here!

But my first thought is that the higher levels of Paladin aren't buying you very much here. You don't even need Resist Energy if your partner is a Sorcerer. KotC I is OK, but perhaps we can find something better? 12 Fighter and 3 Paladin seem mandatory to meet build goals, but that leaves 5 levels with some flexibility.

Since this build would like to Intimidate while *not* carrying a shield, it seems to me that a Monk splash is worth a look. But this is not easy, because the build doesn't obviously have either the DEX or the WIS to go for the big unarmored AC. And you can't do in a Finesse direction with Greatsword, obviously!

Is armor a thematic requirement? If not, I'm just about certain you can get better AC (and I'd have to guess significantly better if willing to rework stats a bit) as a Fighter 12/Paladin 6/Monk 2. And of course, this grants 2 feats and Evasion -- both pretty excellent.

[Pwesiela]

Firstly, thanks for making your build goals so clear! It's like you read my "how to get better advice" thread before I even published it!

Been around for a while

I am only tangetially familiar with Aes Sedai and Warders, so I apologize in advance if I go completely off the rails, here!

But my first thought is that the higher levels of Paladin aren't buying you very much here. You don't even need Resist Energy if your partner is a Sorcerer. KotC I is OK, but perhaps we can find something better? 12 Fighter and 3 Paladin seem mandatory to meet build goals, but that leaves 5 levels with some flexibility.

3 pally is req, I agree. KotC was mainly for the extra abilities and damage against "evil" creatures (though by the books it would be more against things like ogres, trolls, gargoyles, and vampires - but not undead in general).

Since this build would like to Intimidate while *not* carrying a shield, it seems to me that a Monk splash is worth a look. But this is not easy, because the build doesn't obviously have either the DEX or the WIS to go for the big unarmored AC. And you can't do in a Finesse direction with Greatsword, obviously!

I'm not necessarily looking for intim to take the aggro and absorb it via DR or AC, but more to just get the aggro off of the caster so that they don't die.

Is armor a thematic requirement? If not, I'm just about certain you can get better AC (and I'd have to guess significantly better if willing to rework stats a bit) as a Fighter 12/Paladin 6/Monk 2. And of course, this grants 2 feats and Evasion -- both pretty excellent.

Armor really isn't a big thing with the build. In the books at least, warders are never really detailed as being in heavy armors. (leathers, chain, etc. are noted sometimes). I figure that I'll need str, con, and at least some cha. The CE is much more "thematic" than an attempt to get decent ac. Warders are experts in physical combat, so it's a feat more for flavor than practical application.

I was also thinking going 12ftr/6pal/2rgr for access to the favored enemy (giants, monstrous humanoid?) and (maybe) some investment into hide/ms, since warders are a rather sneaky lot. I'd loose the evasion, but gain a few favored abilities.

[Thanimal]

Alright, so it seems worth fleshing out what might happen with the monk splash. I feel 14 WIS and 13 DEX are about the minimum to feel good about it. Even without uber equipment, that would hit 22 and 20 by end-game. It also lets us take Dodge as one of the early Monk Bonus Feats, for yet another point of AC. (Sorry, I'm an AC addict! But it seems thematically appropriate to me for somebody called a Warder to have good defenses!)

Human 32-point Fighter 12/Paladin 6/Monk 2
only assuming +1 Tomes and no uber equip
STR 14 [6] + 1 Tome + 1 Human enh + 3 Fighter enh + 5 level-ups + 6 item + 8 surge = 38
DEX 13 [5] + 1 Tome + 6 item = 20
WIS 14 [6] + 1 Tome + 1 Monk enh + 6 item = 22
CHA 14 [6] + 1 Tome + 2 Paladin enh + 1 Human enh + 6 item = 26
CON 13 [5] + 1 Tome + 6 item = 20
INT 12 [4] + 1 Tome = 13 (qualify for CE)

This looks pretty reasonable to me, and I think offers a pretty significant increase in AC (at least +7 according to back-of-envelope -- +11 if you farm up some Icy Raiments) while sticking to the right theme (though obviously you'll be the judge of THAT!)

[Pwesiela]

Alright, so it seems worth fleshing out what might happen with the monk splash. I feel 14 WIS and 13 DEX are about the minimum to feel good about it. Even without uber equipment, that would hit 22 and 20 by end-game. It also lets us take Dodge as one of the early Monk Bonus Feats, for yet another point of AC. (Sorry, I'm an AC addict! But it seems thematically appropriate to me for somebody called a Warder to have good defenses!)

Human 32-point Fighter 12/Paladin 6/Monk 2
only assuming +1 Tomes and no uber equip
STR 14 [6] + 1 Tome + 1 Human enh + 3 Fighter enh + 5 level-ups + 6 item + 8 surge = 38
DEX 13 [5] + 1 Tome + 6 item = 20
WIS 14 [6] + 1 Tome + 1 Monk enh + 6 item = 22
CHA 14 [6] + 1 Tome + 2 Paladin enh + 1 Human enh + 6 item = 26
CON 13 [5] + 1 Tome + 6 item = 20
INT 12 [4] + 1 Tome = 13 (qualify for CE)

This looks pretty reasonable to me, and I think offers a pretty significant increase in AC (at least +7 according to back-of-envelope -- +11 if you farm up some Icy Raiments) while sticking to the right theme (though obviously you'll be the judge of THAT!)

OK, so being away from the game and unable to remember all the different things that would go into it, what would that give in terms of AC? If I'm looking at the 50s, then it could be worth it. If we're looking at 40s, then it (realistically thinking) wouldn't necessarily be worth it in terms of AC alone.

[Thanimal]

OK, so being away from the game and unable to remember all the different things that would go into it, what would that give in terms of AC? If I'm looking at the 50s, then it could be worth it. If we're looking at 40s, then it (realistically thinking) wouldn't necessarily be worth it in terms of AC alone.

Heheh. You have been away for a little while. Barbarians can get 50 these days if they want. Here's a quick shot at this guy:

10 base
8 armor bracers
7 DEX
6 WIS
1 Monk centered bonus (which applies even when not centered)
2 Paladin aura
1 Dodge feat
5 Combat Expertise
5 Protection item
1 Haste
3 Barkskin
4 Shield wand (Don't forget to max UMD even though it's not a class skill)
---
53 easy self-buff

Uber equipment
3 Dodge (chattering ring)
4 Insight (Greensteel weapon)
4 Dodge (Icy Raiments)
2 DEX (better Tome and exceptional bonus)
2 WIS (same)
---
68 self buff optimally equipped

Party mates
+4 Syberis Paladin aura
+4 Bard Song
+2 real Ranger Barkskin
+2 Recitation
---
80

If really wanted to tank, you can go Stalwart Defender instead of Kensai and get 5 more (2 granted; 3 in stance). But that doesn't seem like the right thematic fit.

[Pwesiela]

Heheh. You have been away for a little while. Barbarians can get 50 these days if they want. Here's a quick shot at this guy:

If really wanted to tank, you can go Stalwart Defender instead of Kensai and get 5 more (2 granted; 3 in stance). But that doesn't seem like the right thematic fit.

By away from the game I mean "Not in game so can't check a similar character right at the moment." Been playing since headstart

Thanks for running the numbers though. Looks like standard ac would be around 60 AC. That's adding in the tomes, icy, and figuring on a ranger being around. That's not too bad of an idea for a greatsword user. Could also throw in a heavy shield if really really needed....hmmmm...

And no, I wouldn't say the stalwart defender is in the theme.

decisions decisions....

[Thanimal]

By away from the game I mean "Not in game so can't check a similar character right at the moment." Been playing since headstart

<Sheepish apology face>

Thanks for running the numbers though. Looks like standard ac would be around 60 AC. That's adding in the tomes, icy, and figuring on a ranger being around. That's not too bad of an idea for a greatsword user. Could also throw in a heavy shield if really really needed....hmmmm...

I think equipping a Heavy Shield will make the AC of "my" build worse. +8 (including ritual) but then lose 6 WIS, 1 Monk, and 4 Shield wand, for a net of -3.

And no, I wouldn't say the stalwart defender is in the theme.

Roger that.

[Pwesiela]

So, what do you think about dropping the 2 monk and going with 2 ranger. That would give a favored enemy (which fits the theme), two wep fighting, rapid shot for those ranging times, bow strength, and a bunch of skill points to start off with, which would help with the hide/ms?

I'd loose out on evasion and ac (though how much is a question since it would put me into mithril fp instead of light armor/vestments). And I don't think it would be too much of an ac loss (7 lost, some gained by heavy armor).

You know, I really wish now that bastard swords could be used in two hands, rather than only one. That would probably be the most thematically correct sword.

[Pwesiela]

I think equipping a Heavy Shield will make the AC of "my" build worse. +8 (including ritual) but then lose 6 WIS, 1 Monk, and 4 Shield wand, for a net of -3.

Curious. Not having a monk splash to look at, you loose your centered and wisdom bonus when using a shield, but not when using a non-centered weapon?

[Thanimal]

Curious. Not having a monk splash to look at, you loose your centered and wisdom bonus when using a shield, but not when using a non-centered weapon?

Correct. You have to not wear armor (Composite Body is OK) and not equip a shield to get those two things, but you do NOT have to be centered (even for the "centered bonus," which I still find idiotic).

And I think you'll find that the Ranger 2 option has dramatically worse AC than the Monk splash. +5 Mithral Breastplate is only 2 points better armor bonus than Armored Bracers +8, which you immediately lose b/c the DEX bonus is capped at 5 (compared to your potential 7). And then you lose all the Monk stuff AND the Icy Raiments. So I'd say AC loss is at least 10 -- night and day difference. (And the max potential is even relatively worse since you can't take advantage of exceptional bonuses and better Tomes on DEX and WIS.) You also net -1 feat (+TWF; -2 Monk feats) and (as you mentioned) lose Evasion.

If it makes a lot more sense thematically, then definitely go for it. But I'm pretty confident the Monk-splash is the more powerful build.

[Pwesiela]

If it makes a lot more sense thematically, then definitely go for it. But I'm pretty confident the Monk-splash is the more powerful build.

Thought I'd give ya an update. I rolled him up a day or two ago with the monk splash build and stats you posted and now he's lvl 6. I'm having to reassess where I take some feats due to the str reqs of thf, but he's quite a blast so far. His AC sucks until I get some equipment on him, that's for sure, but hey, what can you do?

[Thanimal]

Thought I'd give ya an update. I rolled him up a day or two ago with the monk splash build and stats you posted and now he's lvl 6. I'm having to reassess where I take some feats due to the str reqs of thf, but he's quite a blast so far. His AC sucks until I get some equipment on him, that's for sure, but hey, what can you do?

Cool! Maybe I'll manage to run into you sometime (you're on Thelanis, right?).

The one problem with Monk-splashes is that they can take some time to come together. Interesting about THF prereqs -- I'd completely forgotten that. But not too bad if you acquire or buy a +1 STR Tome -- qualify for the whole line at 8 then I think?

[Pwesiela]

Cool! Maybe I'll manage to run into you sometime (you're on Thelanis, right?).

The one problem with Monk-splashes is that they can take some time to come together. Interesting about THF prereqs -- I'd completely forgotten that. But not too bad if you acquire or buy a +1 STR Tome -- qualify for the whole line at 8 then I think?

His name's Vitalien, and I'm always on Thelanis . I've worked around the thf problem by taking more levels of pally earler, which means that I put my levels up into str before I take the levels of fighter where I was using the bonus feat to get them. I should have the full line at 9, since my last base point I need in str comes at 8.

[ARcdevil]

I reccomend maybe fighting with Nat Gann's staff a new stick that gives an +4 bonus to dexterity and =1 dodge bonus to AC. This lowers DPS quite a bit but makes up for it with 3 ac and a cool looking staff.