A question for the Barb Experts

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Ok, I have a question for the Barb Experts. Yes, this is actually a Build Question, coming from me, but I want some input.

Right before Mod 9 dropped, I ran up a TWF Barbarian to L14. He is still sitting at Level 14, because I got to L14, took Critical Rage 1 & 2, and then stopped. This was quite deliberate. I wanted a TWF Rapier using Barb with Critical Rage, but I could not decide how to finish him, so he is still there. I have some thoughts, but I want some input.

Now, the bad thing is that I screwed up a little bit, and after eating a +2 Dex Tome, he is at 16 Dex, and Level 14. So he currently only carries TWF, but as I have a full set of some really nice Rapiers (WoP, We/En, Smiting, Banishing, Greater Banes, etc)... so I am looking at taking +1 Dex at Level 16, then respeccing Feats to get ITWF and GTWF.

So here's the question, given that I am Barb 14 with only TWF, and I plan to stay a Two-Weapon build... Does finishing Ranger 6 for Tempest make sense?

Ranger 2 gives TWF, freeing up a feat to take Dodge/Mobility/SA. So final feats (after respeccing) would be:
Dodge
Mobility
SA
IC: Piercing
Toughness
ITWF
GTWF
with TWF auto-granted for Ranger 2

Or would finishing a different way make sense?

The Barb Capstone really doesn't seem worth it for me (it is great for THF Barbs!), and Tireless Rage, while nice, isn't that big of a deal. Ranger 6 for Tempest seems good... or Rogue 2 for Evasion (I have a decent Reflex Save), or some FIghter.... I don't know.

Looking for input.

DPS is key on the build
Self-sufficiency would be really nice
Survivability too!

[BattleCircle]

IMO 6 ranger is a great idea, besides tempest you also will get rams might. its a great combo on a barb

edit; not to mention favored enemy

[Visty]

but be sure to spec twf and itwf out BEFOR you take your ranger lvls

also youll never get gtwf that way

[Shade]

DPS is key on the build

Drop crit rage. Get Barb levels and Berserker III.

While crit rage tempest would be good.. Frenzied Berserker DPS is just in another league alltogether. Obvioulsy comes at a cost of some self dmg, but it really isn't that much.

Switching one of my barbs from crit rage to berserker was litterally a 100% boost in DPS.. Could kill twice as fast. It's that much better.

Rangers lvls would't do much for survivability.. You'd just lose a ton of hitpoints.

Self-sufficiency? mm maybe a bit gaining some basic ranger spells, but not much. Real self-sufficiency comes from proper self healing thru either rogue lvls for umd heal scrolls, or 400 silver flame favor for uber 370 healing pots (well 250 +heal amp).

And also, considering the capstone as just a THF thing and a reaon not to cap is poor reasoning for a couple reason:
A) The capstone provides no benefits to THF over TWF. The bonuses to glacning blow dmg and proc do not actaully work yet.
B) Yes someday that may be fixed.. But at the same time, the devs have said each class will be getting multiple capstones to choose from, so a better TWF one may be added as well. So in the future, TWF could indeed benefit more from a capstone then THF. No way to call it either way imo.

[Mav145]

I am no expert but this is the current build that I am leveling up - 12 barb (FB2), 6 ranger (Tempest I), and two levels of fighter to get heavy armor and the extra feats. Already he is dong some pretty good damage.

I am already (level 4) seeing crits in the 50 range with extra damage from the effects (one axe is cold and the other is shocking). So hitting a bad guy for 50-60 damage is fairly regular.

I have a pure barbarian but he is THF and the numbers are impressive but I don't know how that translates over to TWF. I would assume that the +8 strength from the barb capstone would make your build fairly impressive as well.
My pure barb, fully raged, gets strength into the 70's fairly easy. I don't have the +2 exceptional strength yet, so when I get that is should be a thing of pure bad-guy smashing joy.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Drop crit rage. Get Barb levels and Berserker III.

While crit rage tempest would be good.. Frenzied Berserker DPS is just in another league alltogether. Obvioulsy comes at a cost of some self dmg, but it really isn't that much.

Switching one of my barbs from crit rage to berserker was litterally a 100% boost in DPS.. Could kill twice as fast. It's that much better.

Rangers lvls would't do much for survivability.. You'd just lose a ton of hitpoints.

Self-sufficiency? mm maybe a bit gaining some basic ranger spells, but not much. Real self-sufficiency comes from proper self healing thru either rogue lvls for umd heal scrolls, or 400 silver flame favor for uber 370 healing pots (well 250 +heal amp).

And also, considering the capstone as just a THF thing and a reaon not to cap is poor reasoning for a couple reason:
A) The capstone provides no benefits to THF over TWF. The bonuses to glacning blow dmg and proc do not actaully work yet.
B) Yes someday that may be fixed.. But at the same time, the devs have said each class will be getting multiple capstones to choose from, so a better TWF one may be added as well. So in the future, TWF could indeed benefit more from a capstone then THF. No way to call it either way imo.

Shade, I knew you would say that!

And to that, I have a WF THF Barb I am running up, who will be pure 20 Barbarian w/ Frenzied Berzerker III & Capstone.


But on Mandoor, who is Piercing Spec, and has a NICE set of Rapiers already, you are suggesting Dropping Critical Rage 2???? Are you CRAZY?

[Shade]

But on Mandoor, who is Piercing Spec, and has a NICE set of Rapiers already, you are suggesting Dropping Critical Rage 2???? Are you CRAZY?

Yes. Not crazy.

+3 Multiplier 19-20, +6d6 dmg, +6 str > +2 threat, even if ur are critting on a 13-20.

You did say something about DPS. That means damage per second, not stat damage per second.

If your more into stat dmg, then yea stay crit rage.

Sounds like u already made up ur mind tho, so not sure why the post.

[dormetheus]

WOw. I had this whole writeup about my same character, then the forum ate it.

Ok, let's start from the top. I have a very similar build. I rushed to 14 barb and kind of put him down. My toon's only a 28, which makes things a bit more complicated.

Stat buy:
(something like)
16
15
16

Feat progression:

Lvl 1 human: TWF, OTWF
Lvl 3:Power attack
Lvl 6: Toughness
Lvl 9: IC: Pierce
Lvl 12: Dodge
Lvl 15: Mobility

This is as far as I've gotten. Here's is the plan for the future:

Before lvl 16 (Ranger level 2): Switch TWF for SA, Gain Ranger 2 TWF
Lvl 18: Take a placeholder for GTWF (probably toughness)
Eat Dex Tome (I'm sure everyone would do this sooner, I'm not sure when I'll get a +2 dex)
Lvl 20: ITWF Granted by Ranger 6; Switch toughness for GTWF; Take Tempest 1

Don't switch to FBIII, just build a different barb. TWF piercers are good for dps AND stat dmg.

Although, mine is a mess. I wouldn't recommend anyone really follow my build path. But, it looks to be the cheapest way to go, as far as feat switches.

You COULD take ITWF before granted by Ranger 6, BUT you'd have to switch out ITWF for toughness (before Ranger 6), then toughness back to GTWF.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Yes. Not crazy.

+3 Multiplier 19-20, +6d6 dmg, +6 str > +2 threat, even if ur are critting on a 13-20.

You did say something about DPS. That means damage per second, not stat damage per second.

If your more into stat dmg, then yea stay crit rage.

Sounds like u already made up ur mind tho, so not sure why the post.

I am still convinced that I don't want to drop Critical Rage II. Maybe after I run up my THF Barb and see what FBIII can do... but I'm not convinced. So for ideas OTHER than dropping Critical Rage II, I am all ears.

[BlackSteel]

crit power with crit rage with rapiers = 1.35

crit power with frenzy = 1.55

you'll do more damage from swapping even disregarding the other bonuses. theres no reason to keep the old enhancements unless you've already invested more than 2 levels of another class.

[geoffhanna]

Kensai

[mediocresurgeon]

Tough call. Back pre-Mod 9, stat damage was king. Now DPS is. Still, stat damage can be nice for certain fights... But I think I would rather have a Frenzied TWF than a Crit Rage TWF on my team nowadays.


You probably already know this, but if you do decide to go Ranger instead of Barbarian, spec out of TWF. If you hit ranger2/ranger6 and have TWF/ITWF, you lose that feat. Forever. That feat slot just evaporates into thin air, as though you had never had that feat slot to begin with.

[geoffhanna]

If you kensai you are going to get lots of nice tohits and damage, plus fighter haste boost, plus I think it solves your feat problem. I think.

[dormetheus]

crit power with crit rage with rapiers = 1.35

crit power with frenzy = 1.55

you'll do more damage from swapping even disregarding the other bonuses. theres no reason to keep the old enhancements unless you've already invested more than 2 levels of another class.

How do you calculate crit power, exactly? Are you working off base damage, or figuring in burst effects too?

Because with crit rage rapiers, you're going to proc a burst 250% more often, I believe.

Anyway, I say go Tempest, that's my plan, to free up the feats and get the alacrity.

[BlackSteel]

How do you calculate crit power, exactly? Are you working off base damage, or figuring in burst effects too?

Because with crit rage rapiers, you're going to proc a burst 250% more often, I believe.

Anyway, I say go Tempest, that's my plan, to free up the feats and get the alacrity.

going from 6 crits in 20 to 8 crits in 20 isnt 250%. its a 30% increase. crit power is how many extra 'hits' you get in 20 dice rolls. as a rapier is a x2 weapon, each crit just adds one more. So 1 is a miss, you get 19 hits + 8 crits for crit rage / 20. For frenzy: 1 is a miss, 19 hits + 6 crits + 6 frenzy crits / 20.

and tempest doesnt free up the feats, as you end up burning 1 extra on spring attack while still needing to get GTWF.

damage wise the frenzy is better before the actual viscious damage or extra str, which is considerable. on a TWF thats 42 extra average damage on every swing, 21 each hand.

now if you can somehow fit in both crit rage 2 AND GTWF you might be allright, or have already invested more than 2 nonbarb levels. As FE damage/Rams might/Tempest with both crit rage 2 and GTWF would be ok, but I'm under the impression that thats an awkard process to manage. I know I have a 11 Barb / 5 ranger I havent touched since we got the news of crit rages disappearance.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

going from 6 crits in 20 to 8 crits in 20 isnt 250%. its a 30% increase. crit power is how many extra 'hits' you get in 20 dice rolls. as a rapier is a x2 weapon, each crit just adds one more. So 1 is a miss, you get 19 hits + 8 crits for crit rage / 20. For frenzy: 1 is a miss, 19 hits + 6 crits + 6 frenzy crits / 20.

and tempest doesnt free up the feats, as you end up burning 1 extra on spring attack while still needing to get GTWF.

damage wise the frenzy is better before the actual viscious damage or extra str, which is considerable. on a TWF thats 42 extra average damage on every swing, 21 each hand.

now if you can somehow fit in both crit rage 2 AND GTWF you might be allright, or have already invested more than 2 nonbarb levels. As FE damage/Rams might/Tempest with both crit rage 2 and GTWF would be ok, but I'm under the impression that thats an awkard process to manage. I know I have a 11 Barb / 5 ranger I havent touched since we got the news of crit rages disappearance.

See, that's the thing... I am at 14 Barb, only taking TWF at the moment (and yes, I know that if I take Ranger I need to spec out TWF)... and I have Critical Rage 2 already. And if I ever change my enhancements, I lose it forever. If I went Barb 14 / Ranger 6, I would get TWF/ITWF for free, I would take Dodge/Mobility/SA for Tempest, and take GTWF. So that would be GTWF + Tempest + Critical Rage 2 + Ram's Might + 2 FE's.

Yes, I have seen the HUGE hit that Stat Damage has taken, which is why I am looking at this long and hard. Yes, the idea of the higher Crit Multiplier while Raging is quite attractive, especially as Rapiers only crit at 2x... I just don't know.

So do I go:
Barb 14 / Ranger 6
Barb 18 / Ranger 2 - TWF free, FE, +1 Dex, and able to take FB3 if I want
Barb 18 / Fighter 2 - Get 2x free feats, +1 Str
Barb 18 / Rogue 2 - Evasion, +1 Dex, UMD
Barb 14 / Fighter 6 - Kensai I, +1 Str

Remember that I am also running a WF Barb, who will be THF and Pure 20 Barb w/ FB3, using Greatswords.... so I will have a FB character to compare the extra damage on. I think that might be the only thing that will convince me to drop Critical Rage 2 for FB3... once I can actually play a character without it, then put it on, and see what it does.

Dworkin

[Shade]

See, that's the thing... I am at 14 Barb, only taking TWF at the moment (and yes, I know that if I take Ranger I need to spec out TWF)... and I have Critical Rage 2 already. And if I ever change my enhancements, I lose it forever. If I went Barb 14 / Ranger 6, I would get TWF/ITWF for free, I would take Dodge/Mobility/SA for Tempest, and take GTWF. So that would be GTWF + Tempest + Critical Rage 2 + Ram's Might + 2 FE's.

As was already mention. This path seems impossible for you. For it to work, you must take the ranger levels earlier.
Progression prevents it.
As
lvl15 - ranger (feat - whatever but cant be twf)
16 - ranger 2 (TWF free)
17 - ranger
18 - ranger (feat ITWF)
You have no more feats and cannot take GTWF. You cannot respec it into a lower lvl, as progression requirements prevent it.

Only way you could do it is to just respec to get GTWF before you take any ranger levels, then take them and the TWF feat for free is wasted, and possibly preventing you from getting tempest.
Maybe:
1 - power attack
3 - twf
6 - itwf
9 - icrit
12 - gtwf
15/18 .. Dodge + Mobility, not enough feats for spring attack unless your human.

[Aeneas]

Well, i don't play barbs, but i'm pretty sure that statistically, the rapier, falchion, and scimitar benefit the least in terms of DPS from crit rage II. As the crit range increases the base damage and crit multiplier become a more central issue to damage than the crit range. So a Khopesh that crits on 15-20 is more powerful than a rapier that crits on 13-20. Obviously previous game design with regards to stat damage negates this argument, but the game has changed and the need to shift your build may be there as well. I recently rid myself of a couple w/p myself

On the bright side, your nice rapier collection will probably pull a good price still, especially with all the up and coming new characters.


All that aside, play what you think will be the most fun to you, the numbers don't mean anything if you aren't happy while you play. I know i have my share of builds with big flaws, but i like to play them nonetheless.

[dormetheus]

[QUOTE=BlackSteel;2452433]

Going from 6 crits in 20 to 8 crits in 20 isnt 250%. its a 30% increase

.

Hmm. 13-20 (rapier) vs. 19-20 (greataxe) is what I was talking about. Which is actually a larger increase than I thought in the first place (for burst procs).

I guess I didn't think about twf rapiers FBIII. How odd.

crit power is how many extra 'hits' you get in 20 dice rolls. as a rapier is a x2 weapon, each crit just adds one more. So 1 is a miss, you get 19 hits + 8 crits for crit rage / 20. For frenzy: 1 is a miss, 19 hits + 6 crits + 6 frenzy crits / 20.

Just for clarification: Are you counting the vicious damage as the 6 frenzy crits? Because Frenzy only adds x2 on the crit multiplier (on a 19 or 20). It looks like it should be +4 frenzy crits. But, I'm no math man.

I have 1.35 (crit rage) to 1.45 (FB3). So, no surprise, FB3 wins out for pure crit power. However, crit rage tempest has 10% alacrity. 30% more common burst procs for crit rage 2. Also, threat range has more consistency than a higher multiplier (more crits vs. higher crits; ever "waste" a crit on a mob at 10% health?)

and tempest doesnt free up the feats, as you end up burning 1 extra on spring attack while still needing to get GTWF

Ah, right right. My bad.

You have no more feats and cannot take GTWF. You cannot respec it into a lower lvl, as progression requirements prevent it.

I did not know this. Last I checked, you COULD do this (and it was considered a bug). Did they change/fix this? I need confirmation here. I've looked through the forums before, and this was once the strategy (Fred did not recognize progression requirements).

[Shade]

I did not know this. Last I checked, you COULD do this (and it was considered a bug). Did they change/fix this? I need confirmation here. I've looked through the forums before, and this was once the strategy (Fred did not recognize progression requirements).

Far as I Know it was never changed. You could never break progression requirements doing that. I've only tried once in the past tho.. But heard other players confirm it a few times.

Must be thinking of tomes. You can start 14 dex, use a +3 dex tome at lvl20, then respec lvl6/9/12 feats into TWF/iTWF/GTWF. Because when the tome was eaten is not recorded.