Pewpewpew? A few ideas wanting some suggestions.

[RyuAsnubi]

Having done "The Melee Thing" for a while, and not caring too much for hurling spells, I was contemplating a few different ideas around Repeating Crossbows. There's something fun about using a wanna-be machine gun. While Melee is the obvious DPS Supremacy Front, Ranged does has it's advantages as well.

As for the Classes to pull this off, I know Bard is a seemingly 'popular' Repeater choice. Everybody likes a walking buff-bot with a machine gun, right?

A few thoughts of my own, be they presented before or not, were involving either going Fighter (And Kensai) and focus purely on Repeaters. With all the bonus feats, it doesn't seem impossible to get everything needed to make the Crossbow do respectable damage. (That, and Piercing multiple monsters with a Repeater puts a grin on my face.) Added with the Fighter traits of Good HP and Heavy Armor, "Squishy" isn't a word I'd use.

Secondly, there's the obvious choice of Ranger. While Tempest might be the standby, Arcane Archer seems to be an interesting choice. While I know Arcane Archer can only conjure Arrows, would Force Arrows effect Bolts? Regardless, the Archer feats to Ranged are worth considering, as well as other attributes to assist in this build. I think there is a Repeater Ranger build somewhere, and possibly a comparison to Fighter. Would have to double check, but I'm 90% sure the comparison has been made before.

Finally, there's Rogue. With having the natural affinity to Dex as a Ranger does, I was curious if Sneak Attack applies to all the shots fired by a Repeater? With Rogues being a popular party choice as it is, the thought of seeing a sudden surge of numbers explode with Base Damage, Elemental Damage, and Sneak Attack damage kind of makes me grin like an idiot. The only problem I see with Rogue is the lack of Feats to help with the Ranged Shenanigans as early as Fighter or Ranger.

Of course, the last thing to consider is Race. While Drow and Elf have their Dexterity Bonuses (Racial and Enhancement), Halfling has things to bring to the table as well, and Human has their standby of Bonus Feats and Skills.

I suppose Multiclassing is an option as well, since I'm not sure how many "Capstone" abilities would benefit this path, but eh, why play the game if it's not to have fun? Multiclassing suggestions are viable as well.

So, ultimately, Bard vs. Fighter vs. Ranger vs. Rogue, and Elf/Drow vs. Human vs. Halfling. I don't need a build laid out for me, just suggestions and comments.

[Angelus_dead]

While Melee is the obvious DPS Supremacy Front, Ranged does has it's advantages as well.

Not much... you're probably thinking of the advantage being "safety". But it turns out that if your DPS is less than other people, then melee fighting is pretty safe, because without aggro you're not attacked.

As for the Classes to pull this off, I know Bard is a seemingly 'popular' Repeater choice. Everybody likes a walking buff-bot with a machine gun, right?

Not right... most people don't like them. They tolerate them because frequently the most important contribution a bard can make is buffs. But the use of a repeater is rarely viewed favorably.

There's a truth behind your impression: A repeater bard will be the most welcomed of any repeater character. That's because the bard class can come closest to making a good contribution while being AFK for 6 minutes out of every 7, so long as he can wake up in time to repeat Inspire Courage.

Another factor is that if a bard trained all the feats for repeaters, he couldn't get Warchanter, meaning his buffs are weaker than they could be.

With all the bonus feats, it doesn't seem impossible to get everything needed to make the Crossbow do respectable damage.

Until DDO gets a version of the Crossbow Sniper feat from D&D (adds dex to damage), then it will seem impossible. I have suggested that it be added to DDO, but with the limitation that repeater shots are "less stable" and only get some percentage of the dex modifier. (Great Crossbows would be "more stable" and use 150% dex mod)

Finally, there's Rogue. With having the natural affinity to Dex as a Ranger does, I was curious if Sneak Attack applies to all the shots fired by a Repeater?

It applies if you don't have aggro and are at very close range. And you only get the hitpoint damage from sneak attacks, not the strength damage higher level melee rogues do. Strength damage that's totally awesome, and which I encourage the devs to allow for ranged rogues as well.

I don't need a build laid out for me, just suggestions and comments.

I suggest you start by testing if this would turn out to be a good idea. Fortunately the repeater is one of the easier weapons to compute the DPS for, because you can measure attack rate by counting how many bolts you burned in 60 seconds, and there's no concern about how high your strength bonus might get.

It seems that a (3 feat) repeater has 120 attacks per minute, compared to 52 for a crossbow (2 feat). Each hit is 5.5 base +5 enhancement and then maybe +7 holy +3 shock +10 lightning +10 bard +10 fighter= 51. Then toss in another 20% for crits (even a lot of those dice don't really multiply on crits) and it's 61 per hit.

120 apm of 61 each is 7320 dpm, or 122 dps. I didn't spend much time on the numbers, or update the speeds for any changes that might have just happened, but I think my assumptions were rather generous to the repeater. And well, 122 dps is not too good. It's far below what a melee fighter would expect, although it is 30% above what a pure-class cleric could reasonably do with a quarterstaff.

[RyuAsnubi]

Well, all of those numbers aren't including the possibility of "Piercing" Multiple targets, correct? While Repeater (Ranged) Single-Target damage is nothing compared to the shenanigans a good melee-character can do, wouldn't multiple targets lined up (Not entirely different with Doorway Shenanigans) create a flow of overall destructive numbers?

Either way, I suppose in no way the build would be viable in groups aside from being a class like a Rogue, whom is dragged along most of the time for disarming stupidity and unlocking glorious loots, or a Bard for their Inspire Courage and Hasting.

But eh, when have I ever liked making groups happy?

In any case, tricky. So far it seems Melee is the only viable path (With spellcasters being screamed at to BUFF HASTE NAOOOOOOOOOOOO! and Healers are, well, duh.) for "Physical" based damage. Rather boring seeing as all that is either getting GTWF and swinging weapons around like a kid on sugar, or running forward with a gigantic two-hander and cleaving people in two.

Hrm. Demoralizing to say the least. I could go the whole Cleric or FvS Heal-Bot Route, maybe. Would make a lot of those Melee People happy with their inability to allow Aggro to be established and whine when they die and as a result blame it on the healer.

Still, eh. The point of this thread wasn't to **** the idea, but to instead offer insight on which of the suggested Classes and Races are more likely to pull it off.

If I honestly wanted DPS I'd stick with Frenzied Psychopaths or Tempest Cookies.

[Geonis]

A repeater user going straight DPS, is a gimp.

That being said, your "damage" will come in the form of debuffs/effects 90+% of the time.

I have a solely repeater user Ranger 13/Rogue 1/Ftr 2, with 2 tier 3 greensteel repeaters.

The nice thing there, is Favored Enemy damage and the size bonus to damage from Ram's Might do work with the repeater.

You get most of the good ranged feats (Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Imp Precise Shot....).

The only ones you need to take are Exotic Weapon Prof, Rapid Reload, and Imp Crit.

If you find room to toss in Weapon Finesse, you can do respectable melee DPS when necessary.

I went the halfling route, since the hit to Str is minimized with repeater.

I added in the Halfling DragonMarks and Empower Healing.

With the Rogue level, I also am a fully functioning trap monkey, so it never hurts to add a secondary role to the character.

I can relate my favorite story about that character.

Shortly after Vale came out, I was in a Shroud group, and we had reached part 5, and the entire group went down (except me) with about 20% health left on Harry.

Several released, already talking about trying again.

It did take a little bit, but I kited Harry and managed to finish him off to the amazement of the rest of the party. (This was prior to crafting my GS repeaters)

It was satisfying to hear the grumbles of those that had released.

[Maxelcat]

Range is all about tactics. make a fireing line. have one of your stabby people stand in front of you. Draw mobs down long hallways or across large open areas. mow them down. wash rinse repeat. sure, its not "exciting" play, but anything you can do to kill mobs, with no expense in HP or SP is a win in my book.

kiting out a non ranger build requires buying x-bows with precision.

range SA from stealth only occurs with in 30ft. and causes you to un stealth.

However, if you stand just behind the DPS you can range into melee and SA with out having to risk damage. (well... with rogues with a high no agg enhancements.)

repeaters are are awesome for a back ranker. Clerics and Arcanes... then they can still do damage while preserving SP.

hard to sneeze at 3d10(+3d6) for the cost of three bolts with a heavy repeater with precision and acid. (or more if you have +effect bolts) (or even more if you add Arcane archer force rit.) and that's at low levels.

Part of the issue is usually you have one ranged spec guy in a party of melee and alot of people have no experience adjusting their play style.

We have a trick where the ranger aggs stuff and pulls them in. I stay stealthed in front of her and SA anything that gets close. (or they walk into the line of DPS) Lots of Ranger / Rogue tactics out their trading Agg back and forth.

Ive been playing around with Dwarvin SWAT team party for fun. Everyone with heavy repeaters. Casters focusing on buffs more than damage spells.

Now, if they could only fix rate of attack for a bow! My guild will be happy!

[RyuAsnubi]

Hrm. This is all very interesting. If I could confirm if the Ranger Capstone effects Repeaters, I'd likely go a pure Ranger. 25% Range Haste is nothing to sneeze at!

Until I can find that out, Rogue and Bard have their overall useful tendencies. Even Cleric has a possibility of usefulness. Doing more than "Just Damage" can help you get away with using a Repeater, it looks. Be it Rogue Disarming, Bard Buffs/Spellsinger Shenanigans, or Cleric for the same Bard Reasons.

It's a lot to consider.

[Angelus_dead]

Well, all of those numbers aren't including the possibility of "Piercing" Multiple targets, correct?

Yes, but DDO's monsters don't often line themselves up that way. And when they do, they're often not very threatening and a low priority to kill. (That is, if you're able to line up mobs like that, some of them are probably stuck a bit, and not much of a danger to anyone, so there's less need to DPS them fast).

In addition, the new targetting changes in last month's patch screwed up Improved Precise Shot, although there's possibly a UI option to fix it that I haven't figured out yet. In the old days you'd use mouselook to aim at the thickest part of a group of monsters, and the shots would pass through hitting all of them. If you do that now, soft targeting will select the single monster closest to you, and the shot will hit him and stop there.

In any case, tricky. So far it seems Melee is the only viable path (With spellcasters being screamed at to BUFF HASTE NAOOOOOOOOOOOO! and Healers are, well, duh.) for "Physical" based damage. Rather boring seeing as all that is either getting GTWF and swinging weapons around like a kid on sugar, or running forward with a gigantic two-hander and cleaving people in two.

Hrm. Demoralizing to say the least.

It would be nice if the devs could try fixing ranged combat to fit better into groups, although I understand that it's a tall order.

[Angelus_dead]

Part of the issue is usually you have one ranged spec guy in a party of melee and alot of people have no experience adjusting their play style.

No, it's that to adjust to that playstyle would be a mistake and reduce tactical effectiveness.

[Milolyen]

If you do that now, soft targeting will select the single monster closest to you, and the shot will hit him and stop there.

That is not true ... either 1 or 2 patches after the release of improve precise shot that was changed. Even if you have the very first mob targeted the arrows will go through untill they hit a hard object (anything that isn't a mob). However it will do so as if you are aiming at the heart of the target instead of shooting the arrow where your mouse look target is pointing which does make lineing up the shots harder.

Milolyen

[Thrudh]

Part of the issue is usually you have one ranged spec guy in a party of melee and alot of people have no experience adjusting their play style.

Exactly... Take 4 repeater builds into most quests and see what happens... Doesn't work for all quests, but I've had some fun with that before... 4 guys lined up with Tommy guns, all blasting away... not many monsters make it to the group... (of course, at end-game, they teleport to you)

Don't take this as an endorsement of a repeater build... I've tried to make them... I'm sure I'll make another one in the future.. I still have a good collection of repeaters... .

They just don't work well in most groups... But they can be fun to play...

[The_Phenx]

A wop repeater is nice for later on... stuns the mobs so the mele can dps them down once they go auto crit.

[RyuAsnubi]

Hrm. This a lot of interesting feedback to consider. If nothing else, the line of Repeating could make healing as any of the "healer" classes a lot more interesting. Feats would probably be stretched here and there, but it doesn't seem to be an impossibility to do what you want to do with it.

Hum. With Bard, I was figuring either toying with Drow and 8/18/12/12/8/18 (The will loss is a smidge annoying but I'll see if Force of Personality can't be snuck in at one point or another) isn't too bad. Maximizing CHA to 20 is possible but I don't care much for durking Dex/Con/Int like that. 18 SHOULD be enough to Heal on a respectable level, with enough SP to pull it off. DC's will be a touch lower for CC Spells but it shouldn't be too horrible.

While Drow lacks the Bonus Feat, the first level can go to Rapid Reload (While not as good as Rapid Shot, avoiding Point Blank Shot until later is fine by me.), third can grab the Repeater feat and start the stupidity, and sixth can snag Mental Toughness toward the Spellsinger Requirement (Since Healing is the priority over CCing, Enchantment Focuses can wait a bit).

After that it turns into "Do I want to Pierce or do I want to do the Spellcasting thing better?", ultimate leading to 9/12/15 turning into either Point Blank, Precise, and Improved Precise, or Empower/Extend/Focusing. Perhaps Force of Personality a little earlier.

Hrm. Normal feating is a little difficult to plan properly. Ranger definitely has it easier in this department with all of it's Innate Feats, though Arcane Archer is nothing short of a massive pain in the butt to get before Level 9 if you want to go Elf/Drow over Human for the Dex Racial Bonuses and such things. Deepwood Sniper is viable as well but there's something spiffy about 1d6 Force Damage, Returning Arrows for Manyshot shenanigans, and Innate Ghost Touch.

Hrmm...