Aryenne the Justifier, a twist on Knight of the Chalice DPS

[Choopak]

question for you Junts

You said you switch from plate to cloth armor at around level 10... What was your resulting AC? I realize this ain't an AC build but still, AC is AC

[sephiroth1084]

question for you Junts

You said you switch from plate to cloth armor at around level 10... What was your resulting AC? I realize this ain't an AC build but still, AC is AC

The thing is, AC isn't AC. If you're running around with 20 AC in Gianthold, you might as well be wearing nothing. And those numbers go up and up and up. By end, end game if you aren't rocking a 60+ AC before outside buffs, you can ditch the full plate, the shield and the protection item.

[MrSvinlesha]

Couple of quick questions about this build:

1) I notice that you haven't taken any monk enhancements in your enhancement list. Are enhancements like monk jump or monk concentration not worth taking for this build?

2) You write:

...3 : EWP: Khopesh
6 : Improved two weapon fighting (if you lack a no-ml tome, take any feat and swap it in at lv 7 after you eat a newstyle tome)
9 : Improved critical: slashing weapons...

What on earth is a "no-ml tome", and what is a "newstyle tome"? If I don't have any tomes, how can I compensate so as to get ITWF? Should I put a couple of bonus points (that you get for leveling) into dexterity instead of strength?

[sephiroth1084]

Couple of quick questions about this build:

1) I notice that you haven't taken any monk enhancements in your enhancement list. Are enhancements like monk jump or monk concentration not worth taking for this build?
No. Most of the skill-improving enhancements on any class tend to be a waste. Concentration isn't needed so much on this character since he won't be able to use any of the monk strikes due to be uncentered; the monk levels are strictly for Evasion, feats and possibly Wis to AC.
2) You write:



What on earth is a "no-ml tome", and what is a "newstyle tome"? If I don't have any tomes, how can I compensate so as to get ITWF? Should I put a couple of bonus points (that you get for leveling) into dexterity instead of strength?

Until recently, tomes had no minimum level, so you could read a +2 tome at level 1. A few months back Turbine changed all future tomes to have a minimum level (ML), and then about a week later retroactively changed all tomes to have a ML. Junts probably wrote this sometime before all tomes were given MLs.

Junts' suggestion is to take another feat and then replace it later with ITWF whenever you acquire and read that +2 tome. Another possibility would be holding off on the monk level until after you've acquired a +2 tome. If you're unlikely to pick up one any time soon, I'd be inclined to say that it would be reasonable to spend one level-up point on Dex in order to qualify.

[MrSvinlesha]

Thanks seph.

Looks like I'll have to redo all my enhancements (again).



Oh well. Live and learn.

I will say one thing; my monk/paladin is only lvl 3 so far, but he's tough as nails.

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks seph.

Looks like I'll have to redo all my enhancements (again).



Oh well. Live and learn.

I will say one thing; my monk/paladin is only lvl 3 so far, but he's tough as nails.

No prob.

Hell, I respec my enhancements just about every level (and occasionally in between), mostly because I hate having that AP icon on the screen for very long.

As for your durability, you will probably (though not definitely) find that you will be alternating between being very, very tough, and kind of squishy as you level and as you fall behind and then catch-up on equipment and stats and such. At least that's the experience I had been having with my monk. If you do find that to be the case, push through to the next point at which you will be totally badass.

[MrSvinlesha]

Hmmm... to take ITWF you need a BAB of 6. A lvl 1 monk/lvl 5 paladin has a BAB of 5. So how does that work?

Also, this build doesn't seem to include OTWF at all, which you can take at lvl 6 regardless of your BAB. Can you use two khopeshi without OTWF?


And another question: Paladin devotion 1+2 increases the effectiveness of your healing spells by 50% and costs a total of 3 skill points.
Human Improved Recovery 1+2 (I'm assuming that's Junts means with "Human healing amp") increases the benefit you receive from healing spells by 20% and costs a total of 6 skill points. Which is to be preferred in a cost/benefit analysis? Junts doesn't have paladin devotion at all, as far as I can see.

[sephiroth1084]

Hmmm... to take ITWF you need a BAB of 6. A lvl 1 monk/lvl 5 paladin has a BAB of 5. So how does that work?

Also, this build doesn't seem to include OTWF at all, which you can take at lvl 6 regardless of your BAB. Can you use two khopeshi without OTWF?


And another question: Paladin devotion 1+2 increases the effectiveness of your healing spells by 50% and costs a total of 3 skill points.
Human Improved Recovery 1+2 (I'm assuming that's Junts means with "Human healing amp") increases the benefit you receive from healing spells by 20% and costs a total of 6 skill points. Which is to be preferred in a cost/benefit analysis? Junts doesn't have paladin devotion at all, as far as I can see.

I'm too lazy to look at the build right now, so my answers are going to be a little generic.

Not sure when he was planning on taking ITWF, or when the monk levels come in. If he has monk before level 6, then the ITWF comments for 6 may just be a typo/mistake.

OTWF simply reduces the penalty for wielding a non-light weapon in your off-hand from -2 to 0, essentially granting you +2 attack bonus. You can get through nearly the entire game with that penalty with no problem. In epic it may be an issue, so carrying 1 or 2 good light off-handers may be a good call (Kukris are an excellent choice).

Devotion increases your healing by 10% per rank, so that would be +20% for 3 AP, not +50%. The real thing to consider is this: are you gaining most of your healing from healing yourself with mana, or from LoH, consumables and outside healing (someone else healing you)? If it's the former, then Devotion is better, but if it's the latter, and it's almost guaranteed to be, then Healing Amp is better. The Devotion enhancements only affect your healing spells, not LoH.

[MrSvinlesha]

Thanks again seph. That 50% above was a typo.

I'm just a bit surprised, surely I'm not the only one who's tried this build, but I'm the first to notice you can't ITWF at lvl 6?

Also, to clarify, you take a -2 penalty to hit with TWF (othewise -4, isn't it?), so wielding two khopeshi without OTWF would result in a net -4 (as opposed to khopesh + shield) -- or is my math wrong?

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks again seph. That 50% above was a typo.

I'm just a bit surprised, surely I'm not the only one who's tried this build, but I'm the first to notice you can't ITWF at lvl 6?

Also, to clarify, you take a -2 penalty to hit with TWF (othewise -4, isn't it?), so wielding two khopeshi without OTWF would result in a net -4 (as opposed to khopesh + shield) -- or is my math wrong?

No problem. Someone has to keep up with this thread while Junts is on hiatus.

And I thought the 50% was a typo, but figured I'd include the comments anyway, for the audience following along at home. With the healing built into this character later on, I'd probably try to fit in 2 or 3 ranks of Devotion--if Junts laid out the enhancements, I don't see where they are.

As for the TWF stuff, yeah, normally you have a -2 penalty for TWF, and then you'd suffer a further -2 for wielding a 1-hander in your off-hand, for a total penalty of -4. While not true early in the game, or in epic, a -9 penalty on your attacks is fairly insignificant for a large portion of your questing.

And I looking at it, I think Junts just forgot that monk gives a 0 BAB. I'd switch PA and ITWF.

[MrSvinlesha]

But why not go OTWF at lvl 6, and switch out PA for ITWF when it comes up instead? Would that be a viable alternative as well? And then maybe insert PA instead of one of the later spell feats?

[MrSvinlesha]

I'm trying to use the Character Planer to generate a template for this build. I've modified it somewhat based on the fact that I don't think you can get ITWF at level 6.

The feat at level 6 is problematic, because neither ITWF nor Improved crit can be taken, so I've placed Skill focus UMD there for the time being. Seems like it might be useful to have that boost around lvl 6, but in addition, you can't take both ITWF and Improved crit at lvl 9, because one of the feats taken then must be a monk feat (hence PA). Then you have to chose between ITWF or Improved crit (this version uses ITWF), or maybe you can go to Fred at some point when you've got the prerequisites (prior to lvl 9) and replace SF UMD? (I think this character would benefit more from having both those feats by lvl 9, anyway, if it's doable).

This is still just a rough draft, so critical commentary is welcome.

I've been playing a version of this build and while he is tough, he is also one of the least effective fighters in most of the groups i've been in, at least judging by final kill score. (I know you can't go entirely by that score, but I just finished running the catacombs with a dwarven fighter companion, and he consistently killed 3 to 5 times the number of mobs I did. He was lvl 5 with THF and I was lvl 4). I don't know if this is because of my play style or the character's low dps, but I suspect the latter. For that reason I've moved OTWF into a lvl 1 feat slot, so that somewhere around lvl 3 - 4 the character can start using dual khopeshi with a hopefully higher kill rate.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Essau the Hunter
Level 9 Lawful Good Human Male
(7 Paladin \ 2 Monk) 
Hit Points: 176
Spell Points: 24 
BAB: 8\8\13
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 12
Will: 8

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 9)
Strength             15                    17
Dexterity            16                    17
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             16                    17

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 9)           (Level 9)
Balance               7                  8                    8
Bluff                 3                  3                    3
Concentration         5                  8                    8
Diplomacy             3                  3                    3
Disable Device       n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                  3                    3
Heal                 -1                 -1                   -1
Hide                  3                  3                    3
Intimidate            3                  3                    3
Jump                  6                 10                   10
Listen               -1                 -1                   -1
Move Silently         3                  3                    3
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                 -1                   -1
Search               -1                 -1                   -1
Spot                 -1                 -1                   -1
Swim                  2                  3                    3
Tumble                n/a               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      5                 10.5                 13.5

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Level 9 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack

[sephiroth1084]

But why not go OTWF at lvl 6, and switch out PA for ITWF when it comes up instead? Would that be a viable alternative as well? And then maybe insert PA instead of one of the later spell feats?

Well, then you're not making the same character. A big part of this guy is the self-healing ability. Without Maximize, your CSW just doesn't do enough to be worth using very often, and without Quicken you can't reliably get your spells off while in combat. Besides, the penalty just doesn't mean all that much for 90% of the game or more.

[KolbyLMD]

Since this thread gets quite a bit attention from some intelligent folks I figured I'd post my 2 TR builds in hopes of a response. Will be using Khopesh because I have Lightning 2's.

First off my Drow 30 Pointer: -1 Feat due to Khopesh which means no PA or Extend. Kind of meh enhancements. 9 Starting WIS to use my +3 WIS tome.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.12 BETA
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Lat Drow TR 
Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 304 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 15
Will: 13

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(30 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         12                    14
Intelligence         10                    12
Wisdom                9                    12
Charisma             17                    21

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3.5                  14
Bluff                 3                     5
Concentration         1                    16
Diplomacy             3                     5
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                     5
Heal                 -1                     1
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            3                     5
Jump                  3                     6
Listen               -1                     3
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     3
Spot                 -1                     3
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                2.5                   3.5
Use Magic Device      5                    16

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 4 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Level 8 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV

Now my Human 34 Pointer: Can get PA and Extend. Better enhancement choices such as Human Recovery and Adaptability. I will be starting with 11 CON(Bleh, I know) but that's off set with +1 CON from Human adaptability which means the same CON bracket as the Drow. I've gotten quite a bit of flack for a 11 starting CON idea... but what does it really change if I spend the AP on the enhancement.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.12 BETA
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 275 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 15
Will: 12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         11                    14
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             17                    21

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    14
Bluff                 3                     5
Concentration         0                     2
Diplomacy             3                     5
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle                3                     5
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            3                     5
Jump                  3                    12
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                     0
Search               -1                     0
Spot                 -1                     0
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                3                     4
Use Magic Device      5                    16.5

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 8 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III


Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II


Level 17 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV

[Gercho]

I like the human better, but you may want to consider starting with cha 16 and con 14, and spending one ability point raise in cha, you are trading that way 1 point on final str for 3 point in con, the good about humans is that they can use their human adaptability to even whichever stat is odd, this way you have more freedom on what to do with your human adaptability points. If you ever get a +4 cha tome, you can then lr and get the str point back.
In general i think 3 points in con are better than 1 point in str.
The drow starts with con 12 cause over that would require too much investment, but in a 34 point human, i dont see any reason to start below 14.
In the end, the human gets over the drow +2 con +1 feat, 2 human adaptability vs +1 str +1 wis for the drow (that you could compensate with the human adap points). I didnt checked your enhancements, but you may be a little ap starved with the human. (not the drow cause drow enhancements suck, and you are not using rapiers)

[Hauteclaire]

Hey this sounds fun, but would it work with a drow and what would that build look like because I am awful at making builds. If it works with a drow, I'd like to play this. Oh and if anyone does actually want to post a build keep in mind i'd use the supreme tome since I mostly solo and would never get a shot at getting +3 or 4.

[Gercho]

Well, the problem with drow is that you have one less feat, and you dont have the human amplification enhancements, it can be done but keep in mind that this build requires high level equipment so i wouldnt recomend it for a new player....

[joecro]

hey Junts excellent work on all the pali information. Can you post Aryenne's enhancements like you did for Jaerlach?

Thanks

[lord_of_rage]

hey Junts excellent work on all the pali information. Can you post Aryenne's enhancements like you did for Jaerlach?

Thanks

Im not sure Junts has been active on the forums as of late. You might wait a bit for a reply.

[LawstCawz]

I run a similar build and I'm currently using,

Unyielding Sovereignty
Follower of the Sovereign Host
Human Adaptability Str
Human Improved Recovery 3
Way of the tortoise 1
Paladin Courage of Good 2
Paladin Divine Sacrifice 2
Paladin Exalted Smite 3
Paladin Extra LOH 3
Paladin Extra Smite 4
KoTC 3
Racial Toughness 1
Paladin Devotion 4
Paladin Energy of the Templar 2
Paladin Toughness 2
Paladin DM 3




I couldn't justify Paladin Exalted Smite 4. Exceptional stats and tomes will alter enhancement setup.
http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/mizztah/