Melee + BB + Heal = Done

[Twerpp]

This is what I would do (sort of what I'm doing)

Dwarf 20 FvS
14 Str (not important to max, the few points of dps will not be worth sacrificing spell DC)
17 Wis with level up points in Wisdom for better spell DC.
Low Cha, like 10 or so. Just make sure you have enough to cast without needing CHA III enhancement which is expensive at 6 AP, much better stuff to spend that on
Decent stats everywhere else

1 Toughness feat to unlock the 80 HP via enhancements
Dwarven or Greataxe proficiency
Extend
Maximize
Empower
Quicken
And whatever else you want, Heighten, or Heavy Armor Proficiency if you think you can reach meaningful AC (and you can with a dwarf). Some people are die-hard about empower heals but its worthless, only applies to heal spell, only good for 3 things. Killing Cholthuzz, healing WF too stupid to get healers friend, and setting the world record for heals and posting it on your bio to show everyone how uber you are.

The healing will come without any feats, just choose the right spells. At level 15 Ive got 2 AoE cures (those with maximize and empower are plenty to cover raids), Heal, Blade Barrier, Destruction and Slay Living so I'm not really missing out on anything. You'll find yourself missing stuff as you level up, FoM, Deathward, True Seeing, Prot From Elements, much like a sorc but it will come in time.

Picking up scrolls of heal (obvious one), raise dead (another obvious one but you may go without the spell for a while), res, prot from elements (very useful), true seeing (competes with some other good spells). Very helpful. Also mass spell resist (caster level makes it 25 which actually works a lot)

[Delt]

Just curious - what's your reasoning for putting stat points into wis at all if DC's don't matter, or is 28 wis somehow a good breakpoint for DC for you? (Ie, you wouldn't make it 3 DC less)


I'm not necessarily criticizing, more curiousity on something I don't understand.

You can criticize, I don't mind. But to answer your question, its basically what Varr said. I looked at FVS and asked myself "can I do all 3 [healing, casting, melee]?". And that's the approach I used for the stats. Definitely nothing min/max here. Getting WIS to that point didn't require much, and the points elsewhere didn't provide the same benefit.

Further, WIS gives more than just adequate DC on a few spells for an 18/2 build, so the trade off was worthwhile on paper.

The only real question on stats is where to chuck the level points. If you want to cast more, dump them in WIS for an easy standing of 34-36 (38 with pot). Swap out a feat for Spell Pen and you are good to go. Personally, I'd rather melee mostly on my FVS.

[Shade]

1. Roll a Paladin.
FvS is not a melee class. They are one of the very worst classes to melee on in the game. You will only do poor damage at best. Been grouping with allot of TWF FvS lately.. They are horrible at melee. Especially at low lvl. At high lvl you can't even hope to dps any mob down, so get out a vorpal. Vorpals aren't worth spending a bunch of feats on. Hell you don't even need much strength, mob AC is rather poor endgame.

I understand the thought behind it tho. "Ok I get free weapon proficiecy in this 1 handed weapon, might as well use 2 right?" So very wrong. If you must attempt to DPS on a FvS, there is only 1 logical way to attempt it - Warforged, Lord of the Blades, Greatsword, Power attack... And even that is not going to be much of a melee character.

What ends up happening, is you might melee some stuff down at low lvl, then when finally get to endgame you have a character with 3-6 wasted feat, gimped spell DC for spending it on str.. And just end up vorpaling mobs just as badly as a caster spec FvS - only he can also impload and blade barrier the **** out of them while you can't.

2. Easy enough. 18 wis + lvl up pnts, maximum, empower, heighten, extend. Get a sup pot VI item, and work on a greater arcane lore and/or the new archamage set.
3. Pretty much an automatic feature of the class. Just make sure you get the spells, and enhancements (life magic, scroll mastery) and your set.

It's hard to mess up a FvS build really. The only real way to do it is waste allot of feats on melee stuff. All your doing by doing that is making a very gimped paladin.

If you really want to melee allot and self heal. Make a Paladin. Or hell even a Warforged Sorcerer.

[Twerpp]

I do it just for fun. Sometimes as a healer/nuker you're just standing around. Whip out the weapons and beat something down, join the fun, or whip them out first and beat down their saves/spell pen so you only have to toss that instakill once. This is nice to have when you solo cause the orange names aren't always easy to nuke. As a healer theres no ultimate feat you are missing out on if you take something to melee with, a few metamagics and you're good. You're not really gimping anything, you just won't be min/maxed.
EDIT: and pallies dont have BB you can kite 90 mobs through at a time, no amount of self heal is gonna help them there, no AoE heals, and they have to be do-gooders most importantly. But yeah their melee is way better.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with Shade the FVS is not even as good at melee as a cleric and quite frankly is the worst class in ddo at melee. A quality favored soul is limited in terms of build just by the nature of the class.

[Delt]

1. Roll a Paladin.
FvS is not a melee class. They are one of the very worst classes to melee on in the game.

And just end up vorpaling mobs just as badly as a caster spec FvS - only he can also impload and blade barrier the **** out of them while you can't.

If you really want to melee allot and self heal. Make a Paladin. Or hell even a Warforged Sorcerer.

I'd ask you to back up your claims with some actual numbers/proof/logic, but since the last 3+ years have proven you won't, I'll just bite the bullet and do it for you.

Shade is probably correct on that. Specific builds aside, Rog's have sneak, Rangers have speed+FE, Barbs have rage, Fighters have crit+speed, Pali's have a few specifc tricks. That puts the FVS around bards and clerics for inherant melee ability. The racial and/or class weapon +'s can only amount to so much.

There is nothing preventing Blade Barriers with non maxxed WIS, feel free to point out where it stops working and I'll either prove you wrong or concede you have a point.

As for your last comment, it's idiotic. Show me a WF sorc that passes Fvs melee numbers or show me a Pali that can bring equal group healing.

I agree with Shade the FVS is not even as good at melee as a cleric and quite frankly is the worst class in ddo at melee. A quality favored soul is limited in terms of build just by the nature of the class.

Shade's sideki-- I mean, Matt, back up that statement with anything even remotely resembling logic

[Twerpp]

Dont see what Matts talkin about for sure. Seems the FvS and Cleric are on pretty equal ground, or FvS is actually slightly better. Both get Divine Favor and Power, both have some deity weapon options (FvS better), and neither get any extra feats to blow. A lot of people have assumptions about FvS because they are new. Incapable healers, battlecleric style only, etc.

[maddmatt70]

Dont see what Matts talkin about for sure. Seems the FvS and Cleric are on pretty equal ground, or FvS is actually slightly better. Both get Divine Favor and Power, both have some deity weapon options (FvS better), and neither get any extra feats to blow. A lot of people have assumptions about FvS because they are new. Incapable healers, battlecleric style only, etc.

Clerics are not good at melee either, but they can get higher dps through divine might. Divine might 4 = +8 to damage. Wizards are better because they have more feats, the rage spell etc.. Bards are better, but are not that good at melee either. Sorcs well are not as good technically but at least people do not expect a sorc to heal. It really is about rangers, barbarians, fighters, paladins, rogues, and even monks in terms of dps. A favored soul might as well dump strength and when you feel like you want to melee break out the vorpal, cast divine power and favor and then swing for 20s.

[Delt]

Clerics are not good at melee either, but they can get higher dps through divine might. Divine might 4 = +8 to damage.

Even if I pretended to ignore that your example require 20 base CHA and all the sacrifices it would potentially require, I find it harder to ignore the FVS boost list that isn't stat dependant and the class/racial bonuses. It's pretty clear you don't have a clue here.

Wizards are better because they have more feats, the rage spell etc..

I'll confess you actually made me laugh here...the "more feats", "rage spell" and all encompassing "etc" got a chuckle, lol.

Bunch of other nonsense I'm too lazy to refute.

You probably should have simply admitted you made an exaggerated statement rather than make everyone on the forums dumber after reading the nonsense you posted above. Heh.

[maddmatt70]

Even if I pretended to ignore that your example require 20 base CHA and all the sacrifices it would potentially require, I find it harder to ignore the FVS boost list that isn't stat dependant and the class/racial bonuses. It's pretty clear you don't have a clue here.



I'll confess you actually made me laugh here...the "more feats", "rage spell" and all encompassing "etc" got a chuckle, lol.



You probably should have simply admitted you made an exaggerated statement rather than make everyone on the forums dumber after reading the nonsense you posted above. Heh.

Lets see you type out an actual dps comparison of fvs to other builds and in particular the real melee builds. Who is living in the dream world now?

[Twerpp]

Clerics are not good at melee either, but they can get higher dps through divine might. Divine might 4 = +8 to damage. Wizards are better because they have more feats, the rage spell etc.. Bards are better, but are not that good at melee either. Sorcs well are not as good technically but at least people do not expect a sorc to heal. It really is about rangers, barbarians, fighters, paladins, rogues, and even monks in terms of dps. A favored soul might as well dump strength and when you feel like you want to melee break out the vorpal, cast divine power and favor and then swing for 20s.

Oh yeah I forgot about Divine Might. Still pretty comparable to the FvS Child of So-and-So bonuses though. And of course its weak compared to straight melee classes. You have every good spell in the game except haste.

[Delt]

Lets see you type out an actual dps comparison of fvs to other builds and in particular the real melee builds. Who is living in the dream world now?

While we are on the subject of asking me to justify things I didn't claim, perhaps next you can ask me to prove why peanut butter is awesome...

[Enochroot]

There is nothing preventing Blade Barriers with non maxxed WIS, feel free to point out where it stops working and I'll either prove you wrong or concede you have a point.

I'm not going to get into the melee argument - I just don't care. I have GTWF cleric/monks as well, I'll reserve that argument for shade.


However, regarding BB, and especially destruction/implosion, a melee FvS build (like you posted) is 7-8 DC down on a caster build, plus 2-6 spell pen down. Even with BB, have you really not seen mobs only take half damage on a successful save? (Or zero, with reflex save?)


I see it all the time - and while I don't have a breakpoint DC for that (sort of my question with the 28 wis) - in MY min/max mind, I have to min or max whatever it is my toon is doing.


And I think the whole argument around "what do you do when you're not casting" (Previously, intimidate and recharge sp) - has been replaced by "continuously cast whichever FvS capstone you happen to be, unless you took the nightshield one"


Obviously, building for "fun" is still wholly relevant and valid.

[EinarMal]

+1 on the FVS melee focused build is a waste of time without prestige enhancements

You are far better off maxing wisdom and starting with 14 strength.

It really has to do with the power curve, the best caster FVS is very close to the best caster in the game, more spell points but behind a couple DC to a Wizard. similar if slightly slower casting to a sorc.

The best FVS melee build you can make regardless of what you do is horribly behind the real DPS classes that is just a fact (about 40%).

I like to melee, it comes in handy when soloing, not all mobs are blade barrier appropriate. It might take a bit longer, but you can still do it with the proper buffs and 14 strength.

I have a Warforged 18/2 and I am still starting with 15 wisdom and putting all level ups there.

Here are two examples of builds I am doing that do all three, with melee being a secondary attack.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=193562

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=196607

[Delt]

However, regarding BB, and especially destruction/implosion, a melee FvS build (like you posted) is 7-8 DC down on a caster build, plus 2-6 spell pen down. Even with BB, have you really not seen mobs only take half damage on a successful save? (Or zero, with reflex save?)

Hard to say with the half damage thing - I'm quite sure it happens more often being down DC, if I take Impaqts Reflex estimate as accurate. I tend to only use BB where it makes sense (ie: tons of mobs). Is it noticable when running through Sins on elite dragging junction to junction (between my FVS and my pure casting cleric)? No. Is it noticable trying to get a group of evasion mobs to die from BB? Probably...but it's noticable on a casting specced too because 0 dmg is a bigger deal than half dmg.

I have yet to encounter a legitmate in-game (not on paper) scenario where a DC difference really matters for BB...but I'm all for learning something new -- give me an example and I'll test it out. If BB DC is so clutch, these examples so be plentiful, right? I mean, who really cares if your BB can hit Nakoma in Reysalon easier?

As for DC on insta kills, etc - I totally agree. It's a waste of SP to even bother. If your Spell Pen is lacking, that's even more reason. Feats and APs should shore up how ya play - if you are gonna melee, put it there. If you are gonna cast, put it there. None if this is complicated.

Basically there are two arguements in this thread:

1) -/+ 3 DC makes a measurable difference for BB's (I disagree, but would be happy to be shown incorrect).

2) No one except Rogues, Barbs, Rangers, Fighters and maybe Monks should fight (idiotic).

The best FVS melee build you can make regardless of what you do is horribly behind the real DPS classes that is just a fact (about 40%).

I'd take your word for that, sounds about right. I'd estimate FVS melee DPS somewhere between 250-300 for non fort, probably passing 300 with a WF build or including sneak, set bonuses, etc. Feel free to calc the numbers out to nail it down, I won't.

[Enochroot]

Hard to say with the half damage thing - I'm quite sure it happens more often being down DC, if I take Impaqts Reflex estimate as accurate. I tend to only use BB where it makes sense (ie: tons of mobs). Is it noticable when running through Sins on elite dragging junction to junction (between my FVS and my pure casting cleric)? No. Is it noticable trying to get a group of evasion mobs to die from BB? Probably...but it's noticable on a casting specced too because 0 dmg is a bigger deal than half dmg.

I have yet to encounter a legitmate in-game (not on paper) scenario where a DC difference really matters for BB...but I'm all for learning something new -- give me an example and I'll test it out. If BB DC is so clutch, these examples so be plentiful, right? I mean, who really cares if your BB can hit Nakoma in Reysalon easier?

As for DC on insta kills, etc - I totally agree. It's a waste of SP to even bother. If your Spell Pen is lacking, that's even more reason. Feats and APs should shore up how ya play - if you are gonna melee, put it there. If you are gonna cast, put it there. None if this is complicated.

Basically there are two arguements in this thread:

1) -/+ 3 DC makes a measurable difference for BB's (I disagree, but would be happy to be shown incorrect).

2) No one except Rogues, Barbs, Rangers, Fighters and maybe Monks should fight (idiotic).



I'd take your word for that, sounds about right. I'd estimate FVS melee DPS somewhere between 250-300 for non fort, probably passing 300 with a WF build or including sneak, set bonuses, etc. Feel free to calc the numbers out to nail it down, I won't.

Yeah, I can't conclusively say myself. I'm a bit biased because my pure cleric is MUCH better geared than either my mostly max-dc monk splash and also my 14-wis build monk splash, so I know my caster cleric is clearly more effective, survivable and has higher dps, higher sp's, higher hp's (for instance, sins elite) - but I have no idea exactly how much of that is gear. (Clearly he shouldn't have more hp than my monk-splash dwarf build ...)


So, anyway - that's why I wasn't really necessarily criticizing the 14-wis thing, just that I had been tending towards, well, if you're going to be melee-ing or only doing direct damage (searing light/BB, we'll call BB non-dc-check, for now) - why not put the 6 points into either con or str.


Anyway - I don't have clear numbers myself so ... probably done with this discussion =P

[Shade]

That puts the FVS around bards and clerics for inherant melee ability. The racial and/or class weapon +'s can only amount to so much.

Clerics have divine might, and a hell of a lot more spell slots to load up the useful buffs needed to even begin to melee adequately. There an all around superior melee class - while still being rather poor at it. The meager free bonuses a FvS gets does not make up for that, not nearly.

Bards are obvious with there haste, rage, songs. Which may only make them a better solo melee vs a FvS.. But in any group scenario, the FvS is expected to heal and not melee much anyways. If they instead want to play as a melee, they will get declined as anyone with any knowledge of the game mechanics would recruit a real melee class instead. The bards main attraction is always his songs, what he does beyond that is generally looked upon as a bonus, not an expectation.

Wiz/Sorcs are pretty bad melee's too, but they have the tools to do so in certain situations with great effect if they desire to do so. Namely flesh to stone.. Used against a mob immune to insta kills or regular CC (pretty common in the mod8/9 content), followed up by a high burst or dreamspitter weapon can result in some very fast and effective melee kills in the hardest of quests, something a melee FvS will never be contributing much on.

They are hands down the absolute worst melee class. If your idea of fun is to really focus your build on something the class is entirely bad at, by all means have a ball. If your looking to make a very strong all around character that can melee a bit - focus the stats/feats on the caster side instead, with a bit of strength and maybe 1-2 feats on the melee side and you'll do great.

[Impaqt]

Clerics have divine might, and a hell of a lot more spell slots to load up the useful buffs needed to even begin to melee adequately. There an all around superior melee class - while still being rather poor at it. The meager free bonuses a FvS gets does not make up for that, not nearly.

This is just a bizaar statement.....

Divine might requires a significant investment in Charisma. Most clerics, Especially battle Clerics do not invest heavily in Charisma. and Lacking spell slots to melee adequetly? Huh?

Divine Favor. Divine Power.

End of list.....
I cant even think of another melee buff a cleric has... recitation? Nice, but the To Hit portiond oesnt stack with Divine Favor, nor does it have a Damage portion. Prayer? Again, Doesnt stack with Divine Favor...

Divine Favor is Level 1. its the first spell most FvS's take....

DP is level 4. While level 4 has a lot of good spells, if your going to melee, its not hard to justify having it.

[EinarMal]

Hard to say with the half damage thing - I'm quite sure it happens more often being down DC, if I take Impaqts Reflex estimate as accurate. I tend to only use BB where it makes sense (ie: tons of mobs). Is it noticable when running through Sins on elite dragging junction to junction (between my FVS and my pure casting cleric)? No. Is it noticable trying to get a group of evasion mobs to die from BB? Probably...but it's noticable on a casting specced too because 0 dmg is a bigger deal than half dmg.

I have yet to encounter a legitmate in-game (not on paper) scenario where a DC difference really matters for BB...but I'm all for learning something new -- give me an example and I'll test it out. If BB DC is so clutch, these examples so be plentiful, right? I mean, who really cares if your BB can hit Nakoma in Reysalon easier?

As for DC on insta kills, etc - I totally agree. It's a waste of SP to even bother. If your Spell Pen is lacking, that's even more reason. Feats and APs should shore up how ya play - if you are gonna melee, put it there. If you are gonna cast, put it there. None if this is complicated.

Basically there are two arguements in this thread:

1) -/+ 3 DC makes a measurable difference for BB's (I disagree, but would be happy to be shown incorrect).

2) No one except Rogues, Barbs, Rangers, Fighters and maybe Monks should fight (idiotic).

I disagree with 2, all I am saying is that the extra focus on melee is bad, because whether you hit 40% less DPS of a top tier build or 45% less means very little.

I think it is good personally to start with 14 strength and take power attack on a FVS or Cleric, because in some situations melee DPS (even if not spectacular) can help move the quest along for the group and is handy when soloing.

You are better off with melee as your third option (via power attack, 14 str, etc...) and putting level ups into wisdom. Basically because you can still be a very good to great caster, with some melee ability when it is needed.

The other option of trying to be "great" at melee is a false hope because you simply can't be.

[Delt]

Apparently, laughing at Matt wasn't enough to for you to hold back your own brand of dumb comments, so here we go:

Clerics have divine might, and a hell of a lot more spell slots to load up the useful buffs needed to even begin to melee adequately. There an all around superior melee class - while still being rather poor at it. The meager free bonuses a FvS gets does not make up for that, not nearly.

Even if you give a cleric Divine Might (which is unlikely), it's evened out against the FVS inherant bonuses/boosts. Your spell slots arguement is stupid...I realize you are only aware of a select few spells clerics carry "HJEAL!!!", so I'll forgive your ignorance.

Bards are obvious with there haste, rage, songs. Which may only make them a better solo melee vs a FvS.. But in any group scenario, the FvS is expected to heal and not melee much anyways. If they instead want to play as a melee, they will get declined as anyone with any knowledge of the game mechanics would recruit a real melee class instead. The bards main attraction is always his songs, what he does beyond that is generally looked upon as a bonus, not an expectation.

Well, you say a couple dumb things here, so let's get started. Haste and rage are irrelevant -- everyone that melees has pots or clickies of both. The only relevant portion is songs. I'd suggest you add up the divine spell and FVS bonuses and see where the numbers end up - then come back and post. Give the bard a DP clickie if you really want too.

As for being declined, I'm not sure what you think here...anything a bard does beyond songs is a bonus but the same doesn't hold true for FVS? Is it that you think a few points in STR prevents healing? Maybe you should elaborate so I can make fun of you easier.

Some really stupid babbling about hitting stoned mobs with a woo-woo stick

Too idiotic to even respond...

The only thing you've proven Shade is that you are ignorant and clueless as to the inner workings of the classes you referenced. I'd suggest you stick to the barb forums and look 'less' foolish.

I disagree with 2, all I am saying is that the extra focus on melee is bad, because whether you hit 40% less DPS of a top tier build or 45% less means very little.

Again, I'm taking your 40% at face value and blindly accepting it as true -- though I'd much prefer if someone actually calc'd out the numbers for FVS, instead of guessing.

That said, let's pretend not grabbing spell pen and putting in STR adds 5-10%. If you are spending significant time meleeing, it's worthwhile. End of story.

I really don't know why some of you are putting forth the hyperbole that if you want melee, you expect your FVS to be on par with a Zerker. It's ********. You give up zero healing ability, all you lose is the ability to deal with spell pen and some spell DC (offensive Direct casting). If you care about direct offensive casting, that's a stupid idea. If you don't care, great...now go wack it with weapons. lol